[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
The current version of Vuescan is v7.6.61. It provides for histograms of both the Preview scan and the record scan. That's what the Preview Hist. and Scan Hist. tabs are. Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Ok, Thanks. This being the case, I stand corrected and revise my comments. Those are two tabs I never looked at, used, or even thought about clicking on. My error. Given the new information, I would say that Austin needs to update his familiarity with VueScan as well since much of the discussion appears to involve Vuescan since that is what many of his fellow debaters are using. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Austin Smith Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:26 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more The current version of Vuescan is v7.6.61. It provides for histograms of both the Preview scan and the record scan. That's what the Preview Hist. and Scan Hist. tabs are. Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Hi Laurie, Given the new information, I would say that Austin needs to update his familiarity with VueScan as well since much of the discussion appears to involve Vuescan since that is what many of his fellow debaters are using. You are correct that I (and apparently you as well ;-) weren't up on all the capabilities of VueScan...but...the discussion really had nothing to do with VueScan, it was specifically about making tonal moves in 8 bit vs 16 bit files. Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
You're not alone. I didn't check them until this question came up. I actually thought that Preview Hist. was a log of some kind ;-0 Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
I didn't write any of this, nor was I even quoted in any of the exchange. A bit of prejudicial assumption on your part, perhaps? As you will note from your own email software, these quotes were written by Austin. I also do not use Vuescan, but I have not made any comments about it relative to this debate, Dickie, oh, I mean David ;-) Art David J. Littleboy wrote: Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have little experience with Viewscan, FWIW, Arthur, your cheapshots against Vuescan are really stupid; you don't know what you are talking about. It's a powerful, flexible, scanner driver. It's not about automation at all. The software provided with scanners does a lot more things automatically than Vuescan. as I have no need for it. My scanner software gives me perfect scans, because I know how to use it. Setpoint too and tonal curve tool. Anything beyond that is purely fluff, at least for my scanner. The last I checked, Vuescan doesn't have a curves tool, although it's high on the author's list of things to add. What it does have support for is color calibration. David J. Littleboy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tokyo, Japan Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Austin Franklin writes: I have little experience with Viewscan, No experience at all I think. Austin doesn't know how to spell the name right... -- Henk de Jong http://www.hsdejong.nl/ Nepal and Burma (Myanmar) - Photo Galleries Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Arthur Entlich [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I didn't write any of this, nor was I even quoted in any of the exchange. A bit of prejudicial assumption on your part, perhaps? No, no. Just me being dizzy and too hasty. Abject apologies. I also do not use Vuescan, but I have not made any comments about it relative to this debate, Dickie, oh, I mean David ;-) Touché! David J. Littleboy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tokyo, Japan Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Austin Franklin wrote: How does the color calibration in VS work? To close the calibration loop, you really need to take a picture of a known target and do so for each film/development/camera and/or lense (as different lenses render colors differently) etc., and even then there may be other variables that makes it not work as well as you might hope... like exposure/development etc. The only way to close the loop somewhat is to take a picture of a color target on each roll...which I did routinely when doing commercial work. Austin, recent versions of Vuescan can create an ICC device profile by scanning and analysing an IT8 or Q60 target. Of course this is only good for that particular scanner and type of positive transparency film, and can't adjust for the vagaries of lighting, subject or camera. Peter Marquis-Kyle www.marquis-kyle.com.au Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Arthur Entlich Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 11:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more I didn't write any of this, nor was I even quoted in any of the exchange. A bit of prejudicial assumption on your part, perhaps? As you will note from your own email software, these quotes were written by Austin. I also do not use Vuescan, but I have not made any comments about it relative to this debate, Dickie, oh, I mean David ;-) Art But sometimes it's hard to tell you two apart, since you both troll so much. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Austin, From what I remember Ed Hamrick saying, he uses Kodak calibration data on film types. Bob Frost. Hi Bob, From my experience, I've found that to be rather inaccurate...as I've said, development and exposure play a big part on tonality. Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Henk, Austin Franklin writes: I have little experience with Viewscan, No experience at all I think. Austin doesn't know how to spell the name right... My spelling of it is in fact correct. If you want to fuss about capitalization of the S, fine, but if you look through my posts, you will see I typically capitalized the S. Oh, and what about the other dozen or so people who didn't capitalize the S and made posts here, are you going to call them on it as well? Obviously, you, or any of your cohorts, are able to win the argument here by showing factual images that support your claims... Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Henk, I have little experience with Viewscan, No experience at all I think. Austin doesn't know how to spell the name right... I sit corrected, this product that we are discussing is spelled VUEScan! Which, of course, has no bearing on much of anything...and my misspelling is all you seem to be able to hang your hat on. Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
allows for a number of different types of raw scans (in terms of bit depth generated by a raw single pass single exposure scan or a multi-pass multi-exposure scan) outputed as TIFF file format files as indicated from the material quoted below from the VueScan help section: File Formats VueScan reads raw sensor data from scanners and writes this data to a TIFF file for subsequent processing. The final cropped data can be stored in a TIFF file and/or a JPEG file. Index prints are always stored in a standard Windows BMP file. The raw and cropped TIFF files can have 6 different formats, each with a different number of samples per pixel and bits per sample. A grayscale image has 1 sample per pixel, a normal color image has 3 samples per pixel (red, green, blue), and scans from a scanner with an infrared channel can have 4 samples per pixel (red, green, blue, infrared). VueScan internally keeps all samples in 16-bit linear format, even when a scanner only supports 10-bit samples, but to minimize the disk usage, various TIFF file formats are supported: 1 bit B/W 1 bit per pixel 1 sample per pixel 1 bit per sample 8 bit Gray 1 byte per pixel 1 sample per pixel 8 bits per sample 16 bit Gray 2 bytes per pixel 1 sample per pixel 16 bits per sample 24 bit RGB 3 bytes per pixel 3 samples per pixel 8 bits per sample 48 bit RGB 6 bytes per pixel 3 samples per pixel 16 bits per sample 64 bit RGBI 8 bytes per pixel 4 samples per pixel 16 bits per sample 16 bit Infrared 2 bytes per pixel 1 sample per pixel 16 bits per sample If you want to process the full bit depth of an image in Photoshop(TM), use the 48 bit RGB setting for the Crop TIFF file. Note that some other image editing tools cannot process 48 bit TIFF files; 24 bit is more widely compatible. Note that the raw scan files are stored in linear format when using more than 8 bits per sample, and stored in gamma 2.2 format when using only 8 bits per sample. The saved TIFF files are always gamma corrected according to color space used (1.8 for Apple RGB, ColorMatch RGB, ProPhoto RGB and ECI RGB and 2.2 for all other color spaces). Note that the raw scan files stored in linear format will look dark when viewed. This is normal. Note that both the scan TIFF file and the crop TIFF file can be compressed. VueScan uses CCITT Group-IV compression for 1-bit files, and LZW compression otherwise. This is a bit slower to write, but takes 40% less disk space on average. The size of the JPEG files can be controlled with the JPEG quality option, with useful values ranging from 75 (very compressed, medium quality) to 95 (not compressed very much, high quality). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 10:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more Hi David, But do you scan negative films as positive and invert and remove the mask by hand? If you are getting a positive RGB file as a starting point, you are using just as much automation as Vuescan provides. Not so. I set setpoints and apply tonal curves in the scanner driver. Frank said he ONLY sets brightness...and does not do any setpoints and tonal curves (though brightness is a simplified tonal curve)... I hardly consider inversion and mask removal automation... Automatic setpoints and tonal curves are. and well worth the price of admission for people who want more automated scanning. You're still doing cheapshots: it's not pretty. Not a cheap shot at all. It's simply a statement of fact. Viewscan does allow better automated scanning than most scanner supplied software, does it not? Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
LAURIE SOLOMON wrote: I just checked my copy of VueScan ...It does not present a visual histogram of the scanned image... I guess you are using a pretty old version of Vuescan, Laurie? Peter Marquis-Kyle www.marquis-kyle.com.au Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more Hi David, But do you scan negative films as positive and invert and remove the mask by hand? If you are getting a positive RGB file as a starting point, you are using just as much automation as Vuescan provides. Not so. I set setpoints and apply tonal curves in the scanner driver. Frank said he ONLY sets brightness... I thought I said most of the time. Sometimes because of a poor exposure I'm forced to fiddle with other controls. I forgot to mention that I also fiddle with RGB. I've found that doing it in the VueScan driver saves me time in PS. You're still doing cheapshots: it's not pretty. Not a cheap shot at all. It's simply a statement of fact. Fiddlesticks. You are apparently totally insensitive to the tone of your posts. At least I KNOW when I'm being insulting and childish. You don't have a clue. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more Henk, Austin Franklin writes: I have little experience with Viewscan, No experience at all I think. Austin doesn't know how to spell the name right... My spelling of it is in fact correct. If you want to fuss about capitalization of the S, fine, but if you look through my posts, you will see I typically capitalized the S. Oh, and what about the other dozen or so people who didn't capitalize the S and made posts here, are you going to call them on it as well? But they don't need being picked on. You do. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Frank, But they don't need being picked on. You do. You're supposed to be an adult. Why not behave like one, especially in public? This is a technical forum, and I believe that most everyone here would appreciate it if you kept your personal issues out of this forum. Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
I don't think so. I am using version 7.6.something. I do not remember the complete version number and am not near the system that has the software on it. Maybe I am looking in the wrong place, I would welcome any suggestins as to the location of the comand that produces a visual histogram. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Peter Marquis-Kyle Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 8:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more LAURIE SOLOMON wrote: I just checked my copy of VueScan ...It does not present a visual histogram of the scanned image... I guess you are using a pretty old version of Vuescan, Laurie? Peter Marquis-Kyle www.marquis-kyle.com.au Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Delurk Its the Preview Hist and Scan Hist tabs at the top of the right hand panel. /Delurk At 11:31 PM 9/17/2003, LAURIE SOLOMON wrote: I would welcome any suggestins as to the location of the comand that produces a visual histogram. -- Clive http://clive.moss.net Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying this applies when using Vuescan - especially with negs? That is probably how every filmscanner that you or I would use, works... The issue is the software (and possibly hardware), and how it allows you to control this...but if you can get 8 bit data, it's got to have it's setpoints set and tonal curves applied. Some scanners do the setpoints automatically in the scanner. Some use profiles to apply the tonal curves... I presume what you mean by tonal curves are curves applied to the data to correct for the behaviour of the scanner's own hardware and the behaviour of the film (ie. a film profile). Maybe I'm not understanding what set points are. I thought you meant black and white points but now I'm not sure. Or are you assuming the sort of interface that Nikonscan provides? I'm not assuming any specific interface... Another question then - do you use Vuescan? Because my understanding of the original rationale behind vuescan (which has shifted a little over time) was to get the most possible useful information out of the scan, and leave the a lot of the contrast and tonal correction to editing later. Maybe Ed has changed his rationale completely over the years, but I don't recall him ever recommending that you should do all the image tonal manipulation in Vuescan and virtually none of it in an editor afterward. OK, then I think we agree? Other than what you mean by raw data. Typically, when you get high bit data from the scanner, it's raw data. Raw data specifically means the setpoints have not been set, or the tonal curves applied. What do you think raw data means? I would have taken raw data to mean exactly what it says - the bytes produced by the scanner with no manipulation whatsoever, meaning you'd have to remove the neg mask, invert and do tonal correction in an editor. Perhaps my view of raw is skewed by being a programmer or using Vuescan; whose raw files are exactly as I described above. More importantly, the raw data is useless to me if I want to take advantage of the scanner's IR dust removal feature. Rob Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Hi Rob, Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you saying this applies when using Vuescan - especially with negs? That is probably how every filmscanner that you or I would use, works... The issue is the software (and possibly hardware), and how it allows you to control this...but if you can get 8 bit data, it's got to have it's setpoints set and tonal curves applied. Some scanners do the setpoints automatically in the scanner. Some use profiles to apply the tonal curves... I presume what you mean by tonal curves are curves applied to the data to correct for the behaviour of the scanner's own hardware and the behaviour of the film (ie. a film profile). That sounds about right, but tonal curves also correct for exposure and any other tonal changes you want to make to the image. Maybe I'm not understanding what set points are. I thought you meant black and white points but now I'm not sure. Yes, setpoints are the black and white extents of the image. The black setpoint and the white setpoint make up the two setpoints. Or are you assuming the sort of interface that Nikonscan provides? I'm not assuming any specific interface... Another question then - do you use Vuescan? No. Because my understanding of the original rationale behind vuescan (which has shifted a little over time) was to get the most possible useful information out of the scan, and leave the a lot of the contrast and tonal correction to editing later. Well, I've been around since long before Viewscan...and IMO, Viewscan was simply a scanner program that was better (in some instances) a LOT better than any of the programs that came with the low end scanners of the time...and allowed people to get better scans from low end scanners. Maybe Ed has changed his rationale completely over the years, but I don't recall him ever recommending that you should do all the image tonal manipulation in Vuescan and virtually none of it in an editor afterward. I don't konw what Ed recommends or not, aside from buying his program...nor am I really too concerned it... I also don't know how good the setpoint and tonal tools are in Viewscan, but as I've said, you should either get the setpoints and tonal curves right (requiring none to little modification later) in the scanner software, or use raw scan data and do the setpoints and tonal manipulation in your image editing program of choice. OK, then I think we agree? Other than what you mean by raw data. Typically, when you get high bit data from the scanner, it's raw data. Raw data specifically means the setpoints have not been set, or the tonal curves applied. What do you think raw data means? I would have taken raw data to mean exactly what it says - the bytes produced by the scanner with no manipulation whatsoever, meaning you'd have to remove the neg mask, invert and do tonal correction in an editor. Correct. That's not different than what I said, except my statement is descriptive of what the raw data is, yours is what the raw data requires...except you're missing setting setpoints, which really has to be done before tonal correction. Perhaps my view of raw is skewed by being a programmer or using Vuescan; whose raw files are exactly as I described above. Raw data is exactly as I have described it. You can give it any additional attributes you want... More importantly, the raw data is useless to me if I want to take advantage of the scanner's IR dust removal feature. I have no need for any features like that, but my understanding is what yours is as well, you can't use those types of features with raw data...unless the scanner also passes the IR data to the scanner application along with the raw data. The IR data is simply a fourth channel, and could easily be passed on if designed to do so. Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 6:36 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more Hi Rob, Well, I've been around since long before Viewscan...and IMO, Viewscan was simply a scanner program that was better (in some instances) a LOT better than any of the programs that came with the low end scanners of the time...and allowed people to get better scans from low end scanners. By low end scanners, do you mean something like the Polaroid SS4000? Because VueScan produces much better scans than Polacolor Insight. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Frank, By low end scanners, do you mean something like the Polaroid SS4000? Because VueScan produces much better scans than Polacolor Insight. Viewscan, nor Insight, nor any scanner software produces the scans, the scanner and the scanner operator does. Perhaps it's true that for someone who wants the software to simply hand then a scan, Viewscan does a better job at automating the process. I find setting setpoints and adjusting tonal curves quite easy. Or, perhaps for scanners that aren't all that good, all the extra processing options in Viewscan can be very beneficial. Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
It is with the Nikon 4000. Vuescan simply saves it as an extra channel if you ask it to. You can then look at it and see what it has marked for removal. Bob Frost. - Original Message - From: Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] The IR data is simply a fourth channel, and could easily be passed on if designed to do so. Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Thanks for that info Bob. Does the Nikon 4000 suffer from any focus issues, at least in your experience (assuming you have one)? BTW, do you think the IR dust removal works well? It seems to me that it's (dust problem) exacerbated on scanners that use point light sources, like LEDs... I've literally got no experience what so ever with any of this extra processing that the newer scanners have...as my scanner doesn't have any of these issues that this seem to mitigate... Regards, Austin It is with the Nikon 4000. Vuescan simply saves it as an extra channel if you ask it to. You can then look at it and see what it has marked for removal. Bob Frost. - Original Message - From: Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] The IR data is simply a fourth channel, and could easily be passed on if designed to do so. Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Franklin Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2003 8:12 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more Frank, By low end scanners, do you mean something like the Polaroid SS4000? Because VueScan produces much better scans than Polacolor Insight. Viewscan, nor Insight, nor any scanner software produces the scans, the scanner and the scanner operator does. Duh! Reminds me of the assertion that developed film doesn't have grain, but dye clouds, and about as enlightening. Perhaps it's true that for someone who wants the software to simply hand then a scan, Viewscan does a better job at automating the process. And I presume you think this is me? How condescending. The only thing I set most of the time in VueScan is the brightness level and accept the rest of the defaults, doing minor touch-up in Photoshop. This is for slide film. I have much less to do in VueScan than I do in Insight. I don't even use the latter anymore, it is so poor by comparison. Do you even have any experience with VueScan, or are you, as usual, just talking through an orifice of your body that does not bear mentioning? Also, re your tedious insistance on proof for every claim that people are making regarding the usefulness they have found for 8 bit color scans, you know, that's like asking for yet another proof of Einstein's theory of relativity before you'll accept it: totally passé. I find setting setpoints and adjusting tonal curves quite easy. How does this distinguish you from most experienced scanner people on this list? Or, perhaps for scanners that aren't all that good, all the extra processing options in Viewscan can be very beneficial. I hardly ever use anything else but brightness. So maybe the SS4000 is exempt from your dismissal of scanners that aren't all that good. Frank Paris [EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Frank, Perhaps it's true that for someone who wants the software to simply hand then a scan, Viewscan does a better job at automating the process. And I presume you think this is me? How condescending. Frank, did I say that was you? No, I didn't. Don't read things into what I say that I simply didn't say. I was stating what I thought were the advantages Viewscan offered, and that is one of them. If it HAPPENS to fit you, then that's fine, and certainly NOT condescending. The only thing I set most of the time in VueScan is the brightness level and accept the rest of the defaults, doing minor touch-up in Photoshop. But...this means you DO in fact want an automated process...doesn't it? And, my comment that Viewscan does a better job at automating the process DOES apply to you... I have much less to do in VueScan than I do in Insight. I don't even use the latter anymore, it is so poor by comparison. All you should need to get perfect scans (NOT perfect images, as there may be things you may want to do beyond simply scanning) is to be able to set the setpoints and adjust the tonal curves. That's all you need to do to get perfect scans. Do you even have any experience with VueScan, or are you, as usual, just talking through an orifice of your body that does not bear mentioning? I have little experience with Viewscan, as I have no need for it. My scanner software gives me perfect scans, because I know how to use it. Setpoint too and tonal curve tool. Anything beyond that is purely fluff, at least for my scanner. Also, re your tedious insistance on proof for every claim that people are making regarding the usefulness they have found for 8 bit color scans, you know, that's like asking for yet another proof of Einstein's theory of relativity before you'll accept it: totally passé. Call it what you want, Frank...as your head is in the...er...sand... It's your, and anyone else's, lack of providing any evidence that makes your position rather annoying. You are clearly espousing something that you simply have no experience with...or you, or someone, anyone, else would provide the evidence. I find setting setpoints and adjusting tonal curves quite easy. How does this distinguish you from most experienced scanner people on this list? Because one is experienced certainly doesn't mean one knows what one's doing ;-) Or, perhaps for scanners that aren't all that good, all the extra processing options in Viewscan can be very beneficial. I hardly ever use anything else but brightness. Then why aren't you able to use the scanner interface that comes with the SS4000? Does it not come with a setpoint tool and a tonal curve tool? Do you simply not understand setpoints and tonal curves enough to use them? BTW, do you actually know what brightness does to the actual data? So maybe the SS4000 is exempt from your dismissal of scanners that aren't all that good. The SS4k is a great scanner, and I've never said anything different, but it IS a low-mid end scanner. It's one of the better of the low-mid end scanners, that's for sure. Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have little experience with Viewscan, FWIW, Arthur, your cheapshots against Vuescan are really stupid; you don't know what you are talking about. It's a powerful, flexible, scanner driver. It's not about automation at all. The software provided with scanners does a lot more things automatically than Vuescan. as I have no need for it. My scanner software gives me perfect scans, because I know how to use it. Setpoint too and tonal curve tool. Anything beyond that is purely fluff, at least for my scanner. The last I checked, Vuescan doesn't have a curves tool, although it's high on the author's list of things to add. What it does have support for is color calibration. David J. Littleboy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tokyo, Japan Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Hi David, The last I checked, Vuescan doesn't have a curves tool, although it's high on the author's list of things to add. What it does have support for is color calibration. Some of the scanner software has film profiling, and I've done quite a bit of work with it, unfortunately, that only sort of works. There are variables in film development, and exposure that will render profiles only somewhat useful. They get you in ballpark, but you still typically have some work to do. How does the color calibration in VS work? To close the calibration loop, you really need to take a picture of a known target and do so for each film/development/camera and/or lense (as different lenses render colors differently) etc., and even then there may be other variables that makes it not work as well as you might hope...like exposure/development etc. The only way to close the loop somewhat is to take a picture of a color target on each roll...which I did routinely when doing commercial work. I've color calibrated one of my flatbeds using a color target (and the scanner software that came with it) and it worked OK. I'm sure for some people, they may be perfectly happy with that type of open loop calibration, and given Viewscan's audience, that, no matter how Ed did it, unless he really did it wrong... is probably a great feature, and well worth the price of admission for people who want more automated scanning. Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re: 24bit vs more
Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The last I checked, Vuescan doesn't have a curves tool, although it's high on the author's list of things to add. What it does have support for is color calibration. Some of the scanner software has film profiling, and I've done quite a bit of work with it, unfortunately, that only sort of works. There are variables in film development, and exposure that will render profiles only somewhat useful. They get you in ballpark, but you still typically have some work to do. Of course. One rarely sees a photographer carrying a color temperature meter and set of color correction filters. And one rarely wants to do that outside the studio; one wants one's sunrise and sunset landscapes to be warm, and one's harsh high noon shots to be harsh. But do you scan negative films as positive and invert and remove the mask by hand? If you are getting a positive RGB file as a starting point, you are using just as much automation as Vuescan provides. How does the color calibration in VS work? I don't know. I've only used it as a scanner driver. At the point I was using it, the reason people used it was that most scanner software did you too many favors, but Vuescan gave you full manual control over everything the scanner did. and well worth the price of admission for people who want more automated scanning. You're still doing cheapshots: it's not pretty. David J. Littleboy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tokyo, Japan Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] Re:24bit vs more
Austin Franklin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You should either get raw data from the scanner, or do the setpoints/tonal curves correctly in the scanner software. Keep in mind, every time you re-do setpoints/tonal curves, you are degrading the data. It's just a fact of how setpoints/tonal curves work. What the significance of that degradation is, will vary greatly, so it may not be *that* bad...but why do things twice when you can do them right the first time? Are you saying this applies when using Vuescan - especially with negs? Or are you assuming the sort of interface that Nikonscan provides? Getting the *right* 24 bits can sometimes better be done with an image editing program than the scanner's interface. I understand that some scanner software is lacking, and that is where you simply should get raw data from the scanner, and learn how to do a better job of setpoints and tonal curves in PS. OK, then I think we agree? Other than what you mean by raw data. I wouldn't ever attempt to use an editor (I don't own PS by the way) to do what Vuescan does to go from the raw scanner output from a neg to produce a positive image. Rob Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
[filmscanners] RE: 24bit vs more
Hi Rob, I dispute the claim that if you have to do a significant amount of adjustment after scanning that you haven't done it right. It depends on the circumstances. Hum. Obviously, I disagree, and note, it's not just after scanning but after scanning and letting the scanner do setpoints and tonal curves. If you get raw data, well, obviously, you have to do all your adjusting after the scan! You should either get raw data from the scanner, or do the setpoints/tonal curves correctly in the scanner software. Keep in mind, every time you re-do setpoints/tonal curves, you are degrading the data. It's just a fact of how setpoints/tonal curves work. What the significance of that degradation is, will vary greatly, so it may not be *that* bad...but why do things twice when you can do them right the first time? Getting the *right* 24 bits can sometimes better be done with an image editing program than the scanner's interface. I understand that some scanner software is lacking, and that is where you simply should get raw data from the scanner, and learn how to do a better job of setpoints and tonal curves in PS. Regards, Austin Unsubscribe by mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED], with 'unsubscribe filmscanners' or 'unsubscribe filmscanners_digest' (as appropriate) in the message title or body
