Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
I think what the low-budget photo printers must do is set the black and white points of the image well inside their normal settings, losing detail in highlights and shadows. The best I could recommend is a lot of sweat continuing to practice working with levels and curves in Photoshop. Maris - Original Message - From: "Jim Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan | I have a Minolta Scan Dual I purchased recently, mostly with the thought | of using it with color negative film for web work. It was inexpensive | and I assumed it would be adequate for my intended use. I have been | using Vuescan with it and have been basically pleased with how it's | worked out with one exception. - Color saturation. | | It seems no matter what I try my scans come out "flat" for lack of a | better word. They just don't seem to have much color, yet the negatives | are fine when printed using a standard photographic process. | | I can fix this to a large degree in Photoshop, but it's tedious and | difficult to keep the color balance correct, especially with skin tones. | No matter what I try, even a low $$ photographic reprint still looks | much better to my eye. | | I'm pretty new to all this and I can't help but think there is something | basic I'm missing... Any help would be greatly appreciated. | | -- | Jim
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Maris Agreed on the budget printers. Blown out highlights and no shadow detail. Still, even comparing my scans to good quality digital cameras like the Nikon 990 leaves me dissapointed when viewing them on screen. My scans are sharper, which is not surprising given the resolution difference, but again, they just don't seem to have the color I guess I'm used to, or that people (clients) want to see. I'm trying to determine if I've missed something, just haven't learned enough yet, or am expecting too much from the setup I have. It's hard to accept that an $500 digital camera can give better results when the output is for the web... -- Jim -- Original Message -- From: "Maris V. Lidaka, Sr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:33:13 -0600 >I think what the low-budget photo printers must do is set the black and >white points of the image well inside their normal settings, losing detail >in highlights and shadows. > >The best I could recommend is a lot of sweat continuing to practice working >with levels and curves in Photoshop. > >Maris
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
You might be interested in downloading the following PDF file, http://www.ledet.com/margulis/PP6_Chapter2.pdf Hope it helps, Bob Wright - Original Message - From: Jim Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 6:12 AM Subject: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan > I have a Minolta Scan Dual I purchased recently, mostly with the thought > of using it with color negative film for web work. It was inexpensive > and I assumed it would be adequate for my intended use. I have been > using Vuescan with it and have been basically pleased with how it's > worked out with one exception. - Color saturation. > > It seems no matter what I try my scans come out "flat" for lack of a > better word. They just don't seem to have much color, yet the negatives > are fine when printed using a standard photographic process. > > I can fix this to a large degree in Photoshop, but it's tedious and > difficult to keep the color balance correct, especially with skin tones. > No matter what I try, even a low $$ photographic reprint still looks > much better to my eye. > > I'm pretty new to all this and I can't help but think there is something > basic I'm missing... Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > -- > Jim >
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Levels, curves and saturation should bring the image up to speed, and a gamma "punch" from calibrated monitor settings to the PCs 2.5 gamma default and sRGB should do the rest. Try using LAB color too to adjust the tone - see LAB Correction by Dan Margulis at http://www.ledet.com/margulis/LABCorrection.pdf and especially The Magic of Lab Color Space by Michael Cervantes at http://www.vakcer.com/mcdesign/Web_site_English.html I'm an amateur but if you like send me an image - I'll see what I can do and try to capture the screen shots of adjustments made and track the particulars (it may take a couple of days - I have my regular employment to attend to). Maris - Original Message - From: "Jim Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, March 26, 2001 2:20 PM Subject: Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan | Maris | | Agreed on the budget printers. Blown out highlights and no shadow detail. | | Still, even comparing my scans to good quality digital cameras like the Nikon 990 leaves me dissapointed when viewing them on screen. My scans are sharper, which is not surprising given the resolution difference, but again, they just don't seem to have the color I guess I'm used to, or that people (clients) want to see. | | I'm trying to determine if I've missed something, just haven't learned enough yet, or am expecting too much from the setup I have. It's hard to accept that an $500 digital camera can give better results when the output is for the web... | | -- | Jim | | | | -- Original Message -- | From: "Maris V. Lidaka, Sr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 09:33:13 -0600 | | >I think what the low-budget photo printers must do is set the black and | >white points of the image well inside their normal settings, losing detail | >in highlights and shadows. | > | >The best I could recommend is a lot of sweat continuing to practice working | >with levels and curves in Photoshop. | > | >Maris |
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Jim: I have a Minolta Scan Elite which I use for scanning color negs... I don't use VueScan, just the Minolta software, but the way I take my scans into PShop is the key to my success... I had the same problem with apparently flat scans as well, until I started to scan the neg directly into PShop as a linear file, this means that your scan software does not make the reversal to give you a positive image... what you want is to have the full blown neg with all its info come directly via TWAIN in PShop... you then do an Image>Adjust>Invert, which will give you a positive image... the ones I get at this stage are all too bright and apparently flat, but when I go to Inage>Adjust>Levels and adjust the sliders, or as I recently discovered, use the droppers to set my white, black and mid points, the picture pops almost magically into adjustment... A good book on all this is Photoshop 5 & 5.5 for Photographers by Barry Haynes and Wendy Crumpler, published by New Riders. Costs about $55 (less at Amazon) It explains from a photographers point of view how to use PShop and has good coverage on color calibration and scanning as well as using Levels and Curves. Good Luck, hope this helps. Mike M. Jim Sharp wrote: > I have a Minolta Scan Dual I purchased recently, mostly with the thought > of using it with color negative film for web work. It was inexpensive > and I assumed it would be adequate for my intended use. I have been > using Vuescan with it and have been basically pleased with how it's > worked out with one exception. - Color saturation. > > It seems no matter what I try my scans come out "flat" for lack of a > better word. They just don't seem to have much color, yet the negatives > are fine when printed using a standard photographic process. > > I can fix this to a large degree in Photoshop, but it's tedious and > difficult to keep the color balance correct, especially with skin tones. > No matter what I try, even a low $$ photographic reprint still looks > much better to my eye. > > I'm pretty new to all this and I can't help but think there is something > basic I'm missing... Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > -- > Jim
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Thanks to everyone who replied to this! I downloaded the Margulis .pdf files suggested and will study them closely. I'm hoping that will help. I also intent to try a few of the adjustments in Vuescan that I've yet to experiment with. I'll let you all know how I fare... -- Jim
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Michael I will try this and see how it works for me. Is it much of a problem getting rid of the orange mask from the negative? It also appears I need to buy some books... -- Jim Michael Moore wrote: > > Jim: I have a Minolta Scan Elite which I use for scanning color negs... I > don't use VueScan, just the Minolta software, but the way I take my scans > into PShop is the key to my success... I had the same problem with > apparently flat scans as well, until I started to scan the neg directly into > PShop as a linear file, this means that your scan software does not make the > reversal to give you a positive image... what you want is to have the full > blown neg with all its info come directly via TWAIN in PShop... you then do > an Image>Adjust>Invert, which will give you a positive image... the ones I > get at this stage are all too bright and apparently flat, but when I go to > Inage>Adjust>Levels and adjust the sliders, or as I recently discovered, use > the droppers to set my white, black and mid points, the picture pops almost > magically into adjustment... A good book on all this is Photoshop 5 & 5.5 > for Photographers by Barry Haynes and Wendy Crumpler, published by New > Riders. Costs about $55 (less at Amazon) It explains from a photographers > point of view how to use PShop and has good coverage on color calibration > and scanning as well as using Levels and Curves. Good Luck, hope this helps. > > Mike M.
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
I have had no problem with the orange mask... I guess either the minolta software strips it it when making the scan (as a 16 bit linear negative scan) or PShop does it on invert... Mike M. Jim Sharp wrote: > Michael > > I will try this and see how it works for me. Is it much of a problem > getting rid of the orange mask from the negative? > > It also appears I need to buy some books... > > -- > Jim > > Michael Moore wrote: > > > > Jim: I have a Minolta Scan Elite which I use for scanning color negs... I > > don't use VueScan, just the Minolta software, but the way I take my scans > > into PShop is the key to my success... I had the same problem with > > apparently flat scans as well, until I started to scan the neg directly into > > PShop as a linear file, this means that your scan software does not make the > > reversal to give you a positive image... what you want is to have the full > > blown neg with all its info come directly via TWAIN in PShop... you then do > > an Image>Adjust>Invert, which will give you a positive image... the ones I > > get at this stage are all too bright and apparently flat, but when I go to > > Inage>Adjust>Levels and adjust the sliders, or as I recently discovered, use > > the droppers to set my white, black and mid points, the picture pops almost > > magically into adjustment... A good book on all this is Photoshop 5 & 5.5 > > for Photographers by Barry Haynes and Wendy Crumpler, published by New > > Riders. Costs about $55 (less at Amazon) It explains from a photographers > > point of view how to use PShop and has good coverage on color calibration > > and scanning as well as using Levels and Curves. Good Luck, hope this helps. > > > > Mike M.
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Well, Margulis is a can of worms, in my opinion, unless you have a CMYK workflow. One thing that might help is to set your output to sRGB in Vuescan. sRGB seems to give more saturated image than AdobeRGB when scanning with Vuescan, although I don't know why. Also make sure your scanner is warmed up properly. Jon --- Jim Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thanks to everyone who replied to this! > > I downloaded the Margulis .pdf files suggested and will study them > closely. I'm hoping that will help. I also intent to try a few of the > adjustments in Vuescan that I've yet to experiment with. > > I'll let you all know how I fare... > > -- > Jim __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:31:32 -0800 (PST) Jon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > sRGB seems to give more saturated image than AdobeRGB when > scanning with Vuescan, although I don't know why. I believe Vuescan probably still only really works to sRGB internally, so when you select a wider output space such as AdobeRGB, sRGB gamut occupies a subset of that space. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio & exhibit; + film scanner info & comparisons
RE: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Tony writes ... > On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:31:32 -0800 (PST) Jon > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > sRGB seems to give more saturated image than AdobeRGB > > when scanning with Vuescan, although I don't know why. > > I believe Vuescan probably still only really works to > sRGB internally, so when you select a wider output > space such as AdobeRGB, sRGB gamut occupies a subset > of that space. It is important to realize if the observation is "more saturated as viewed with Vuescan" OR "as viewed with Photoshop". If the observation is with respect to Vuescan, sRGB or AdobeRGB data is viewed in monitor space, in which case AdobeRGB will naturally appear less saturated, and sRGB be appear more correct because it is a psuedo-monitor space. If you scan into a variety of color spaces, and view them all with PS6, they should all appear the same (PS6 being the necessary software, you cannot do all co-existingly with PS5). shAf :o)
RE: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:30:29 -0800 shAf ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > If you scan into a variety of color spaces, and > view them all with PS6, they should all appear the same (PS6 being the > necessary software, you cannot do all co-existingly with PS5). The corollary of which is that, scanned into different spaces and viewed in PS5, they all look different in terms of saturation and gamma. And they do. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio & exhibit; + film scanner info & comparisons
RE: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
--- shAf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Tony writes ... > > > On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 19:31:32 -0800 (PST) Jon > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > > > > sRGB seems to give more saturated image than AdobeRGB > > > when scanning with Vuescan, although I don't know why. > > > > I believe Vuescan probably still only really works to > > sRGB internally, so when you select a wider output > > space such as AdobeRGB, sRGB gamut occupies a subset > > of that space. > > It is important to realize if the observation is "more saturated as > viewed with Vuescan" OR "as viewed with Photoshop". If the > observation is with respect to Vuescan, sRGB or AdobeRGB data is > viewed in monitor space, in which case AdobeRGB will naturally appear > less saturated, and sRGB be appear more correct because it is a > psuedo-monitor space. If you scan into a variety of color spaces, > and > view them all with PS6, they should all appear the same (PS6 being > the > necessary software, you cannot do all co-existingly with PS5). > > shAf :o) > Well, of course viewing in PS6. For me, there is no point in trying to evaluate an image by viewing within Vuescan! So, yes they appear different in PS6, with each image in its respective color space. Jon __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Jon I have been scanning into sRGB. I'll be using these scans on the web ultimately so I assumed that was the way to go. I also leave the scanner on all the time so the warmup thing is not an issue. I haven't looked over Margulis much yet, or had time to try any of the suggestions people on the list have made. I may also my need to rethink what I'm really trying to accomplish. I looked again at some of the things I did and I've been trying to recall what the scenes looked like *when I took the photographs* IOW, if I start out with a dull scene, can I really expect it to look much better after scanning? :-) If I can get to where my scans are a fairly close approximation to what I started with, I'll be a lot happier. At this point I'm probably better off than I could be. If I was scanning and had both the highs and lows gone, ( whites blown out, shadows with no detail) there wouldn't be much I could do to fix things. Face it, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it... -- Jim Jon wrote: > > Well, Margulis is a can of worms, in my opinion, unless you have a CMYK > workflow. One thing that might help is to set your output to sRGB in > Vuescan. sRGB seems to give more saturated image than AdobeRGB when > scanning with Vuescan, although I don't know why. Also make sure your > scanner is warmed up properly. > > Jon > > --- Jim Sharp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thanks to everyone who replied to this! > > > > I downloaded the Margulis .pdf files suggested and will study them > > closely. I'm hoping that will help. I also intent to try a few of the > > adjustments in Vuescan that I've yet to experiment with. > > > > I'll let you all know how I fare... > > > > -- > > Jim > > __ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
"Jim Sharp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have been scanning into sRGB. I'll be using these scans on the web > ultimately so I assumed that was the way to go. I also leave the scanner > on all the time so the warmup thing is not an issue. What resolution will you be using on the net? If it's nothing like the full resolution of the scanner, I find I get great results by using the "Size Reduction" feature in Vuescan. Give it a try; it's under the Options tab. Rob
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Jim, I noticed I get "better looking" results scanning my Kodak Supra 400 with Generic Neg setting. Info posted on another thread indicates that Vuescan attempts to make all neg films "accurate" to a Kodak target, which seems to me would make all different types of neg film look alike. So, you might want to experiment using different Neg settings or generic. Also note color balance notes on Neutral vs. White balance etc. I guess it depends on the subject matter, ie skin tones or scenic. Jon __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Jon - Thanks It's one more thing I'll try... This stuff has about *a million* degrees of freedom, and in the end, I'm still working with something that's subjective. I'm afraid I may have been a bit too lazy so far. It's not going to work though - the canned solution isn't going to satisfy me. Are you happy shooting Supra? I've been using some Royal Gold, mostly 100 speed and I like it. I heard the two films were for all intents and purposes the same film, but I have no way to prove it. The skin tones from the automated prints I've gotten back from the RG weren't too good, but the ones I scanned myself are much better. I've been told by everyone that if I'm shooting people and looking for good skin tones tones I should be shooting Portra, but I really don't want to fool with the refrigeration issue, and I like how sharp the RG is. -- Jim >Jim, I noticed I get "better looking" results scanning my Kodak Supra >400 with Generic Neg setting. Info posted on another thread indicates >that Vuescan attempts to make all neg films "accurate" to a Kodak >target, which seems to me would make all different types of neg film >look alike. So, you might want to experiment using different Neg >settings or generic. Also note color balance notes on Neutral vs. White >balance etc. I guess it depends on the subject matter, ie skin tones or >scenic. > >Jon > > > >__ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. >http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text >
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
Jon wrote: >Jim, I noticed I get "better looking" results scanning my Kodak Supra 400 with Generic Neg setting. Info posted on another thread indicates that Vuescan attempts to make all neg films "accurate" to a Kodak target, which seems to me would make all different types of neg film look alike. So, you might want to experiment using different Neg settings or generic. Also note color balance notes on Neutral vs. White balance etc. I guess it depends on the subject matter, ie skin tones or scenic. . It definitely seems to, and on time of day, and different processing batches from one roll to another too, at least in my film. I often run through "several" VS color-filters before getting close (closer?) to the target on problem negs. Bless Ed for having them! :-) If it weren't for his "smart programming," I'd 'of *quit* this stuff, months ago! Best regards--LRA __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text --- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com
Re: filmscanners: Color saturation with Vuescan
On Thu, 29 Mar 2001 08:54:15 -0800 (PST) Jon ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Jim, I noticed I get "better looking" results scanning my Kodak Supra > 400 with Generic Neg setting. Info posted on another thread indicates > that Vuescan attempts to make all neg films "accurate" to a Kodak > target, which seems to me would make all different types of neg film > look alike. Ed uses a Kodak Q60 target to characterise the scanner, and I guess that's what was meant here. Film characterisations are additive to that. > So, you might want to experiment using different Neg > settings or generic. Also note color balance notes on Neutral vs. White > balance etc. I guess it depends on the subject matter, ie skin tones or > scenic. Yes, it's very empirical: choose what works best. Regards Tony Sleep http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio & exhibit; + film scanner info & comparisons
