Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[andi albert]

Thanks, Johnny.



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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[Arthur Entlich]

Tony Sleep wrote:

> 
> OO Ed, you bitch!!! ;)
> 

I'm reporting this to the list owner... really, such language! ;-)

Art



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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[EdHamrick]

In a message dated 10/10/2000 8:53:55 AM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> > This is also why SilverFast is obsolete.  It was written with a
>  > distinct scanner model in mind - download curves to the scanner
>  > to map 10-bit or 12-bit data to 8-bit data inside the scanner.
>  > Nowdays, good scanners can return the full bit depth to the
>  > scanner program, and scanner programs can pass the full
>  > bit depth to Photoshop.
>  
>  OO Ed, you bitch!!! ;)



My point wasn't to slam SilverFast, but rather to point out the
fundamental assumption underlying it's design - that the
scanner does the mapping from 12-bits to 8-bits before
transferring the data over the scsi interface.

If a scanner transfers the whole 12-bits of data to the
application, then it makes sense to do as much of the
color processing as possible within Photoshop.
There's a lot of overlap between the functionality of
SilverFast and Photoshop, and with modern scanners
this functionality is only really needed in Photoshop.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick


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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[Johnny Deadman]

on 8/10/00 1:49 pm, andi albert at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> couldn't I just as well take the raw, high-bit scan into photoshop and do
> the processing in this, my standard environment?
> 
> Isn't the actual scanning process just the same, how ever the adjustments of
> the scanning software are set? (eg. shadow detail: is
> it not solely dependant of the maximum density the scanner used is capable
> of?)
> 
> thanks in advance,
> 
> sincerely andi albert.

That's what I do, Andi. All scan software I have tried sucks.

-- 
Johnny Deadman

http://www.pinkheadedbug.com




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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[Tony Sleep]

> This is also why SilverFast is obsolete.  It was written with a
> distinct scanner model in mind - download curves to the scanner
> to map 10-bit or 12-bit data to 8-bit data inside the scanner.
> Nowdays, good scanners can return the full bit depth to the
> scanner program, and scanner programs can pass the full
> bit depth to Photoshop.

OO Ed, you bitch!!! ;)

I always read this as something else : Silverfast is designed for a 
production environment where acquiring lots of scans rapidly, whilst  
circumventing PS processing, is the aim. EG magazine, newspaper or 
agency/stock library use. If you have 100 scans to do by deadline every 
day, it's probably the tool for the job and worth the learning curve and 
expense.

It has migrated into the hands of PS users because of the mediocrity of 
most OE s/w. Similarly with Binuscan, which began life dedicated to 
producing optimised colour seps.

Regards 

Tony Sleep
http://www.halftone.co.uk - Online portfolio & exhibit; + film scanner 
info & comparisons

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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[EdHamrick]

In a message dated 10/9/2000 5:59:36 PM EST, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> Do you know, or need to know, the peak response of the RGB filters used in 
> the CCD and their passband characteristics, coupled with the lamp output, 
for 
> this Ed?

No, I don't use CCD specs in calibrating the scanners.  I just scan
a Q60 slide and derive the 3x3 matrix that produces the best fit
with the actual Q60 colors.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick


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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[photoscientia]

Hi Ed.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> The scanner software also needs to either transform the color data
> to a known color space or embed the color space of the scanner
> into the tiff file holding the raw scan data.

Do you know, or need to know, the peak response of the RGB filters used in the CCD and 
their passband characteristics, coupled with the lamp output, for this
Ed? (This is obviously not too relevant for Nikon scanners)

Wouldn't it be possible to derive x,y,z colour space co-ordinates from these data?

If you already do something like this, how well does the CCD manufacturers' data sheet 
align with reality?

Excuse my curiosity Ed. I'm an information Junkie.

Regards,Pete Andrews.



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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[EdHamrick]

In a message dated 10/8/2000 3:36:35 PM EST, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> I think this scanning model is dead. Now that I can get raw 16 bit data into
>  Photoshop, scanning software must be better than Photoshop to be useful.

Exactly - this is why VueScan doesn't have (and doesn't need) curves.
It can easily be done in Photoshop with the full bit depth, so there's
no real reason to add Photoshop functions to VueScan.

This is also why SilverFast is obsolete.  It was written with a
distinct scanner model in mind - download curves to the scanner
to map 10-bit or 12-bit data to 8-bit data inside the scanner.
Nowdays, good scanners can return the full bit depth to the
scanner program, and scanner programs can pass the full
bit depth to Photoshop.

>  Create a 16 bit, full frame, raw scan at max resolution, and archive it. 
Now
>  there is no reason to ever scan the film again, unless you get a new 
scanner
>  with better performance (resolution, noise, etc.) You can crop, resize, and
>  tweak to your heart's delight in Photoshop, or any other of the many aps
>  that now accept 16 bit data.

The scanner software also needs to either transform the color data
to a known color space or embed the color space of the scanner
into the tiff file holding the raw scan data.

The other significant thing the scanner software needs to do is
crop the scan - select the part of the scan area to store in the
tiff file.

>  Now, what will happen to companies like Microtek/Umax/Agfa, and Lasersoft? 
I
>  spent $500 on Lasersoft Silverfast software, and no longer use it.

If one were to apply Occam's Razor to scanner software, a program like
VueScan could be further simplified.  One program would simply let you
select the area to crop and would write the raw scan data to a tiff file.
Another program would be a Photoshop plug-in for handling the colors
for color negative film and slide film.

However, since many people don't own Photoshop and many people
want to do batch scanning, VueScan combines the raw scan
acquisition and the color processing.  This way the raw scan files
don't have to be written to the hard drive.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick


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Re: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?

[Steve Bye]

You may be a newbie, but I think you have exactly the right scanning model
in mind.

Scanning software used to be required because 16 bit data could not be sent
to Photoshop. Since you wanted to work on the high-bit data for best
results, and only the scanning software had access to high-bit data, you
were forced to us scanning software. Companies could add value by having the
best scanning software. This was true to the point that different companies,
such as Microtek/Umax/Agfa, even sold the same hardware, only
differentiating their products with their software.

I think this scanning model is dead. Now that I can get raw 16 bit data into
Photoshop, scanning software must be better than Photoshop to be useful.
There may be some software that is, but I can't afford it, if it exists. And
doing things like sharpening in the scanning software is just a bad idea -
once sharpened it can only be optimally printed at one size.

To me the new model is this:

Create a 16 bit, full frame, raw scan at max resolution, and archive it. Now
there is no reason to ever scan the film again, unless you get a new scanner
with better performance (resolution, noise, etc.) You can crop, resize, and
tweak to your heart's delight in Photoshop, or any other of the many aps
that now accept 16 bit data. Vuescan is all you will ever need. At least, it
will be when it gets its cropping to work better and it allows me to use
custom scanner profiles. Incidentally, profiling the raw linear data is an
interesting topic I wish someone would teach us about.

Yes, working with 16 bit linear data is a little bit harder, but we'll
learn. Someone like a Bruce Fraser will tell us the easy way to think about
it. New tools in Photoshop 6 will make it easier.

Now, what will happen to companies like Microtek/Umax/Agfa, and Lasersoft? I
spent $500 on Lasersoft Silverfast software, and no longer use it. Vuescan
is much better for negatives, and Vuescan+Photoshop works well for
positives. I like the workflow of filling my Polaroid slide-holder with four
slides and forgetting about it, knowing the raw scans are as good as the
scanner can do.

So, who agrees? Who thinks I'm nuts? And why?

Steve
- Original Message -
From: "andi albert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 10:49 AM
Subject: newbie question: what is scanner software needed for?


couldn't I just as well take the raw, high-bit scan into photoshop and do
the processing in this, my standard environment?

Isn't the actual scanning process just the same, how ever the adjustments of
the scanning software are set? (eg. shadow detail: is
it not solely dependant of the maximum density the scanner used is capable
of?)

thanks in advance,

sincerely andi albert.





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