Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
I agree 100% that the score and parts should be written in original notation, substituting mainly treble clef, BUT: I am confused. The two PDFs Kim posted, (if they are score and part for the same measures), are obviously written for horn in A. Are we discussing two different sections of the same work, with two different horn transpositions, or what? (Addenda to above - you can provide F horn parts in addition, if you want, in order not to scare off some community and high school conductors. But only as extras.) Raymond Horton Robert Patterson wrote: In general I believe John has summed up this thread admirably, however I disagree pretty strongly with this: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 PM, John Howell wrote: Re-notate them in treble clef, properly transposed for Horns in F, because that's what they'll be played on. I deplore you not to do this. Instead write them on treble clef for Horn in D. (With the low notes in old-notation bass clef, but that is a topic unto itself.) Almost every professional player (of contemporary valved horns) I know avoids or even despises parts that are not in the original key. Recently I had to play Beethoven 7 from a part for Horn in F. It was very annoying: I effectively had to mentally de-transpose it back to the original key of A in order to play it. (For the more complicated bits I just looked away from the page.) Actually, John himself said it best in an earlier paragraph: "Experienced orchestral horn players are...used to transposing parts written for anything from Bb basso to Bb alto, and that certainly includes Horn in D." Horn in D is common enough that most experienced players don't even transpose it. They just read it natively. If you must provide a 2nd copy of the part written for Horn in F, there is nothing to stop you. Many publishers do so, usually with both versions combined into a single booklet. But almost every professional player will opt to use the horn in D part, and none of them will have any trouble reading a D part. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
At 8:28 PM -0500 8/20/09, Robert Patterson wrote: In general I believe John has summed up this thread admirably, however I disagree pretty strongly with this: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 PM, John Howell wrote: Re-notate them in treble clef, properly transposed for Horns in F, because that's what they'll be played on. I deplore you not to do this. Instead write them on treble clef for Horn in D. (With the low notes in old-notation bass clef, but that is a topic unto itself.) Almost every professional player (of contemporary valved horns) I know avoids or even despises parts that are not in the original key. I understand exactly what Robert is saying, but I have to answer that "it depends." For a well-trained and experienced orchestral horn player, he's certainly correct. When I was in junior high I worked through the Farkas Orchestral Excerpts book and could handle most transpositions at sight (although there's some Brahms that's really nasty!). But in my present situation the opposite is true. I recruit wind players who are mostly community band players (and some of them are darned good) for both our community string orchestra, when we expand to a chamber orchestra, and our annual summer musical. These are ALL volunteer commitments; we have excellent professionals in the area, but no budget to pay anyone. Community band hornists--or band hornists in general--have neither the training nor the experience to play from original parts and transpose at sight. That's just the way it is. (Broadway books are no problem, of course, because they're all for horn in F.) So when Luck's has transposed parts, we buy them. And when they don't, I might transpose them myself. So there is a clear difference between professional orchestral players and community players, and this is one place where that difference shows up loud and clear. If your target market is specifically school orchestras, then two parts should be provided. Horn players, including those in decent Youth Orchestras should be learning to transpose (just as clarinetists who are serious should own A clarinets!). But even there, not every hornist in a high school or college orchestra will be taking private lessons. So while I agree with Robert at one level, and concur that parts in the original key should be provided, I do recommend that transposed parts be printed and available as well. Easy, with the computer to do the work! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] page layout questions
Page layout/parts It's right there in the Page Layout menu and will applyvto all parts. Chuck Sent from my iPhone On Aug 20, 2009, at 6:36 PM, Lawrence David Eden wrote: FinMac 2K7 I am trying to create a template from which I plan to start most of my arrangements. I want these values for System Margins (parts) Top = .277 Left = 0 Right = 0 Bottom = .36112 Distance between systems = .177 How do I make Finale apply these choices to the parts that this template will generate? A step by step explanation would really help. Thanks in advance. Larry Eden ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] page layout questions
FinMac 2K7 I am trying to create a template from which I plan to start most of my arrangements. I want these values for System Margins (parts) Top = .277 Left = 0 Right = 0 Bottom = .36112 Distance between systems = .177 How do I make Finale apply these choices to the parts that this template will generate? A step by step explanation would really help. Thanks in advance. Larry Eden ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
In general I believe John has summed up this thread admirably, however I disagree pretty strongly with this: On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 5:26 PM, John Howell wrote: > > Re-notate them in treble clef, properly transposed for Horns in F, because > that's what they'll be played on. I deplore you not to do this. Instead write them on treble clef for Horn in D. (With the low notes in old-notation bass clef, but that is a topic unto itself.) Almost every professional player (of contemporary valved horns) I know avoids or even despises parts that are not in the original key. Recently I had to play Beethoven 7 from a part for Horn in F. It was very annoying: I effectively had to mentally de-transpose it back to the original key of A in order to play it. (For the more complicated bits I just looked away from the page.) Actually, John himself said it best in an earlier paragraph: "Experienced orchestral horn players are...used to transposing parts written for anything from Bb basso to Bb alto, and that certainly includes Horn in D." Horn in D is common enough that most experienced players don't even transpose it. They just read it natively. If you must provide a 2nd copy of the part written for Horn in F, there is nothing to stop you. Many publishers do so, usually with both versions combined into a single booklet. But almost every professional player will opt to use the horn in D part, and none of them will have any trouble reading a D part. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] 18th Century Horn question
At 8:00 AM -0400 8/19/09, Martin Banner wrote: Are there any 18th Century horn specialists on this list? I have an autograph manuscript of a combined choral/orchestral work from 18th Century Italy. The piece is in D major and the two horn parts are written in alto clef. There are two sharps written in for the horns, so I will assume these are horns in C. No, as others have suggested and as is quite obvious from your description, the parts are for natural horns in D. Writing them at concert pitch is somewhat unusual, and writing them in alto clef at concert pitch is even more unusual, but that's what it is. Horn parts more normally followed the traditions of trumpet parts, always notated as if in C major but with the instruments crooked into the key called for by the piece. Horns in C would make no sense, because your first two notes are not open harmonics on a Horn in C! For the first horn, the first note (in alto clef) is F#, written on fourth space. For the second horn, the first note is D (in alto clef), written on the third space. When played as written, will these sound as F# and D right above middle C, or will they sound in a different octave? Unlike Kim's experience with Graupner (which is indeed a mess!), these parts would properly sound exactly where they are notated, with no octave transposition expected. So, since middle C is on the middle line in alto clef, they would sound a 2nd and a #4th above middle C. Will a trained modern horn player understand how to play this, NO!! Experienced orchestral horn players are (or should be) used to transposing parts written for anything from Bb basso to Bb alto, but they are NOT used to seeing anything but treble (and occasional bass) clef. or should I re-notate these two horn parts in treble clef? Re-notate them in treble clef, properly transposed for Horns in F, because that's what they'll be played on. (Unless, of course, they are played by an early instrument ensemble using natural horns crooked in D!) The question you did NOT ask is whether to use a key signature or only accidentals, and not even horn players themselves agree on that. Both are done, and both can work just fine. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
Daniel Wolf wrote: I need some collective wisdom from the Finale list about a practical publishing matter. The modest publishing cooperative I belong to has recently begun renting sets of orchestral parts. I'm completely new to this and many of the trade practices are all very mysterious to me and my conversations with both publishers and orchestra librarians have been cryptic, at best. I feel a bit like I've been caught in an eternal cat and mouse game about who is responsible for what and on what terms. All I wanted to do was provide a good set of parts at the going rate, but neither a "good set of parts" nor a "going rate" seems to have a public standard. Pricing, of course, is kept quite undercover. (One publisher wrote to me that it would be "illegal" for him to disclose his prices, to which my copyright attorney of course immediately replied that there was no such law under any jurisdiction of which he was aware, and that it was simply a trade practice (what would be illegal, as a restraint in trade, would be a rate schedule drawn up collectively and secretly by a group of major publishers); a pair of orchestra librarians replied that they would love to see tables of rates, although it seems obvious to me that if the librarians are in communication with one another about this, they ought to be able to recreate tables themselves and thus assure themselves a better bargaining position vis a vis the publishers.) But the most immediate concern is that I just got a set of parts returned from a major European radio orchestra. They are completely marked-up, with bowings and much more. Should the orchestra have cleaned them up? Should I erase all of these marks, or should some of them be kept? Again, my calls to both publishers and librarians have been less than helpful. Yes, the orchestra should have erased all the markings. However, since many people would use the same bowings, a lot of people leave them simply so the next people don't have to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately it seems that groups who would use similar bowings seem to leapfrog over groups who would use different bowings. As the person controlling the material, only you can decide if you wish to erase all the marks, or only some of them. Which ones to leave would require a careful perusal of whether they make the most musical sense and so would simply be put back by the next group. When I was in school we used to rent parts to musicals, mostly from Tams-Witmark, with dire threats from the music teachers that we had to erase all our markings before the parts were handed in or we would be billed extra from Tams-Witmark. Of course, the first time we looked through the parts, all the markings the former groups hadn't erased were still there, so if Tams-Witmark did actually charge the "unerased parts surcharge" they didn't spend it on having the parts erased, they simply pocketed it as additional profit. Librarians can't really get together and come up with tables of rates because they're never charged the same for the same piece. So much is based on annual budget size of the orchestra, size of the concert hall, number of performances, so it remains as mysterious as airlines' pricing practices where you may be in a $99 seat while the person next to you is in a $250 seat for the same flight. There is no bargaining position for performers when it comes to renting music -- the copyright monopoly gives the publishers carte blanche to do what they feel like. The bargaining position is this "You want to perform this music, you have to pay us $." And the only counter-bargaining position is "Okay, we'll pay it." Or "We won't pay that, we'll find another musical work to perform." And that's what I feel more and more groups should be doing -- there's a whole world of wonderful music being written which is just as good as the major-name warhorses which are locked up with publishers, and performers, when confronted with exorbitant prices for renting a specific piece should simply say "No thank you, I'll find something else." If everybody did that the publishers would have to figure out a different way of doing business. But far too many performers want to perform specific works which forces them to pay whatever the publishers demand. If your orchestra is hell-bent on performing "Appalachian Spring" there's only one place to get that music and the publisher is not restricted by any law from charging whatever it wants. And you have to pay it if you're going to perform that piece. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
On 8/20/2009 6:43 PM, Daniel Wolf wrote: bargaining position vis a vis the publishers.) But the most immediate concern is that I just got a set of parts returned from a major European radio orchestra. They are completely marked-up, with bowings and much more. Should the orchestra have cleaned them up? Should I erase all of these marks, or should some of them be kept? It depends what your rental agreement says. When I rent music from publishers, the agreement usually stipulates that parts should be returned free of markings, and that a fee may be charged if they are not (to cover the publisher's time in erasing them). This implies that the publisher sends out clean parts, the renter marks them, uses them, and cleans them, and then sends back clean parts. In practice, just about all the rental parts I get arrive with lots of markings in them. I erase those markings, add my own, use the parts -- and then return them with my markings still in. The net effect on my time is the same: one cycle of marking and one of cleaning. I have never complained to a publisher about markings already in the parts, and I have never been charged by a publisher for leaving markings in. In part, this works because of what you suggest. It can actually save me time if parts arrive with bowings and such already in them, unless I have strong preferences for a different set of markings. But I never rent assuming that the parts will have usable markings. Sometimes a set arrives with half the parts marked one way and half another. Sometimes a set actually arrives clean! You as the publisher need to decide which way you want to handle this. And if your agreement states that parts should be returned clean, and you decide to hold renters to this, then you should also make sure that you send out the parts clean. Pricing is a whole other issue. You're right that none of the publishers like to talk about this directly. My experience has mostly been with renting music on behalf of small to medium sized dance and opera companies, and in general I assume that one way or another I will wind up paying about 10% of the potential gross of the concert for rentals and royalties. Aaron. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Somewhat OT: How marked-up can/should rental parts be?
I need some collective wisdom from the Finale list about a practical publishing matter. The modest publishing cooperative I belong to has recently begun renting sets of orchestral parts. I'm completely new to this and many of the trade practices are all very mysterious to me and my conversations with both publishers and orchestra librarians have been cryptic, at best. I feel a bit like I've been caught in an eternal cat and mouse game about who is responsible for what and on what terms. All I wanted to do was provide a good set of parts at the going rate, but neither a "good set of parts" nor a "going rate" seems to have a public standard. Pricing, of course, is kept quite undercover. (One publisher wrote to me that it would be "illegal" for him to disclose his prices, to which my copyright attorney of course immediately replied that there was no such law under any jurisdiction of which he was aware, and that it was simply a trade practice (what would be illegal, as a restraint in trade, would be a rate schedule drawn up collectively and secretly by a group of major publishers); a pair of orchestra librarians replied that they would love to see tables of rates, although it seems obvious to me that if the librarians are in communication with one another about this, they ought to be able to recreate tables themselves and thus assure themselves a better bargaining position vis a vis the publishers.) But the most immediate concern is that I just got a set of parts returned from a major European radio orchestra. They are completely marked-up, with bowings and much more. Should the orchestra have cleaned them up? Should I erase all of these marks, or should some of them be kept? Again, my calls to both publishers and librarians have been less than helpful. Many thanks in advance for your collective advice, Daniel Wolf ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Orchestral Score Playback Setup in FinMac2010
Hi All, I'm starting my first orchestral commission and I need some pointers on setting up the score for playback. I'm using FinMac2010 and GPO with the great new ARIA player. I need playback for composing and to make a sound file for the conductor. There are so many choices of instruments in GPO I'm not sure how to pick them. Is it as simple as GPO Player 1 = Score Part Player 1? Would I ever use the section patches? With divisi parts, is it better to use layers from the start or use separate staves and then combine them for the final score? With the ARIA player is there a way to save what the Kontakt player called Multis? Thanks! **Leigh ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
