[Finale] Triangle-shaped enclosures
Has anyone experienced any problem with triangle-shaped enclosures not importing correctly into Finale 2010 documents, i.e. where the triangles were created in a previous version. These are expressions. Very annoying. I don't want to have to do all the conductor indications from scratch! Matthew ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
My method doesn't change. I assume the horn's key signature is C if it doesn't
have one, and if it's Horn in E, and the notes written are C D E, that's the
1st, 2nd and 3rd degrees of E major, or E F# G#. Never fails (though it gets a
little slow in 16th note passages...)
Christopher
- Original Message -
From: Ryan
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
To: finale@shsu.edu
> What method do you use if the horn part doesn't have a key signature?
>
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 AM,
> wrote:
>
> > I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a
> horn part,
> > say for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know
> it's the first
> > scale degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I
> know it's the
> > raised 2nd degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition
> can throw me
> > this way! (if I get the octave correct!)
> >
> > While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or
> treble, I have
> > so little experience with the other clefs that it would slow
> me down
> > immeasurably. I have nothing but respect for those among you
> who read them
> > easily!
> >
> > christopher
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: John Howell
> > Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
> > Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs
> for voice
> > parts
> > To: "David H. Bailey" ,
> > finale@shsu.edu
> >
> > > At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> > > >
> > > >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> > > written F
> > > >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> > > >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> > > concert pitch
> > > >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> > > using
> > > >clefs?
> > >
> > > Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> > > my confusion was
> > > because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I
> have a
> > > choice!
> > >
> > > >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> > > will
> > > >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> > > the trick.
> > >
> > > To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> > > which
> > > should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> > > to be
> > > perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> > > of the
> > > confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> > > and
> > > those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> > > clef (F3 on
> > > the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> > > C4, not
> > > Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> > > can't use
> > > any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> > > fact I can't make my
> > > mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> > > available
> > > clefs.
> > >
> > > >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> > > the
> > > >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> > > "remove 1
> > > >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> > > all the
> > > >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> > > learn
> > > >and remember.
> > >
> > > LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> > > clefs
> > > rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> > > daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> > > think about
> > > it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only
> then, is
> > > it easy
> > > to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> > > clefs, since
> > > I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> > > too
> > > late.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> > > >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> > > Doesn't matter
> > > >which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality
> > > >works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is
> > > because of
> > > >the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality
> > > still
> > > >applies.
> > >
> > > Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef
> > > system wasn't
> > > originated to make transposition easy. That's just a
> > > useful side
> > > effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the
> > > notes in
> > > Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it
> > > easier
> > > for monks copying music with feathers!!!
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> > > Virginia Tech Department of Music
> > > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> > > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> > > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> > > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> > > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
> > >
> > > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's
> > >
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
What method do you use if the horn part doesn't have a key signature?
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 11:01 AM, wrote:
> I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a horn part,
> say for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know it's the first
> scale degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I know it's the
> raised 2nd degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition can throw me
> this way! (if I get the octave correct!)
>
> While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or treble, I have
> so little experience with the other clefs that it would slow me down
> immeasurably. I have nothing but respect for those among you who read them
> easily!
>
> christopher
>
> - Original Message -
> From: John Howell
> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
> Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice
> parts
> To: "David H. Bailey" ,
> finale@shsu.edu
>
> > At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> > >
> > >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> > written F
> > >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> > >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> > concert pitch
> > >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> > using
> > >clefs?
> >
> > Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> > my confusion was
> > because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a
> > choice!
> >
> > >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> > will
> > >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> > the trick.
> >
> > To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> > which
> > should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> > to be
> > perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> > of the
> > confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> > and
> > those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> > clef (F3 on
> > the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> > C4, not
> > Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> > can't use
> > any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> > fact I can't make my
> > mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> > available
> > clefs.
> >
> > >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> > the
> > >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> > "remove 1
> > >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> > all the
> > >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> > learn
> > >and remember.
> >
> > LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> > clefs
> > rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> > daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> > think about
> > it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is
> > it easy
> > to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> > clefs, since
> > I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> > too
> > late.
> >
> > >
> > >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> > >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> > Doesn't matter
> > >which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality
> > >works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is
> > because of
> > >the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality
> > still
> > >applies.
> >
> > Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef
> > system wasn't
> > originated to make transposition easy. That's just a
> > useful side
> > effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the
> > notes in
> > Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it
> > easier
> > for monks copying music with feathers!!!
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --
> > John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> > Virginia Tech Department of Music
> > College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> > Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> > Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> > (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> > http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
> >
> > "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's
> > definitionof jazz musicians.
> > ___
> > Finale mailing list
> > Finale@shsu.edu
> > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
>
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
I must say, I transpose by solfège (scale degree.) If I see a horn part, say
for F horn with no key signature, I see a C then I know it's the first scale
degree of the key I'm in, or F. If I see a D#, then I know it's the raised 2nd
degree of the key I'm in, so G#. No transposition can throw me this way! (if I
get the octave correct!)
While I read alto and tenor clefs almost as well as bass or treble, I have so
little experience with the other clefs that it would slow me down immeasurably.
I have nothing but respect for those among you who read them easily!
christopher
- Original Message -
From: John Howell
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:17 pm
Subject: Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
To: "David H. Bailey" , finale@shsu.edu
> At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote:
> >
> >What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a
> written F
> >in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the
> >concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a
> concert pitch
> >score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play,
> using
> >clefs?
>
> Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess
> my confusion was
> because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a
> choice!
>
> >So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that
> will
> >show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do
> the trick.
>
> To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4,
> which
> should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or
> to be
> perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part
> of the
> confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces,
> and
> those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone
> clef (F3 on
> the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be
> C4, not
> Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you
> can't use
> any C clef (since F will be on a space).In
> fact I can't make my
> mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the
> available
> clefs.
>
> >But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember
> the
> >"add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and
> "remove 1
> >flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes
> all the
> >various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to
> learn
> >and remember.
>
> LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different
> clefs
> rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed
> daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to
> think about
> it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is
> it easy
> to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable
> clefs, since
> I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much
> too
> late.
>
> >
> >I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed
> >manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch.
> Doesn't matter
> >which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality
> >works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is
> because of
> >the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality
> still
> >applies.
>
> Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef
> system wasn't
> originated to make transposition easy. That's just a
> useful side
> effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the
> notes in
> Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it
> easier
> for monks copying music with feathers!!!
>
> John
>
>
> --
> John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
> Virginia Tech Department of Music
> College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
> Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
> Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
> (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
> http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
>
> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's
> definitionof jazz musicians.
> ___
> Finale mailing list
> Finale@shsu.edu
> http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
___
Finale mailing list
Finale@shsu.edu
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
At 6:46 AM -0500 11/22/10, David H. Bailey wrote: What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a written F in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a concert pitch score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play, using clefs? Ahhh. Thanks! That makes good sense. I guess my confusion was because I almost never look at a concert pitch score if I have a choice! So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that will show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do the trick. To avoid confusion, let's assume that you mean concert Bb4, which should be notated as an F5 (5th line) for horn in F. (Or to be perfectly clear, should be notated on the top line, since part of the confusion is in ASSUMING note values for the lines and spaces, and those CHANGE with each alternate clef.) So no, baritone clef (F3 on the 3rd line) wouldn't work, since the 5th line would then be C4, not Bb3. The problem is that both notes are on lines, so you can't use any C clef (since F will be on a space).In fact I can't make my mind work that way, so I'm not sure it CAN be done with the available clefs. But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember the "add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and "remove 1 flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes all the various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to learn and remember. LEARNING the system, and learning to THINK in the different clefs rather than having to stop and think and decode them, is indeed daunting. So is most everything in music, if you stop to think about it, until AFTER you've learned it. THEN, and only then, is it easy to work with. I'm about halfway there with the movable clefs, since I didn't learn them until grad school, and that's really much too late. I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch. Doesn't matter which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is because of the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality still applies. Yes, I think most of us think that way. But the clef system wasn't originated to make transposition easy. That's just a useful side effect. It was originated in order to keep most of the notes in Guido's system of chant notation within the staff, to make it easier for monks copying music with feathers!!! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
At 11:39 AM +0100 11/22/10, João Pais wrote: for example, not used in bartok string quartets 1 (1908-09) and 2 (1915-17) [don't have 3 (1927) handy] but used in 4th (1928) and onwards. i don't have the 4th handy weither but know the snap pizz is used there for sure. if my memory is right, he used it first in the 3rd sq., but not much. don't know much about other string works (or if music for strings/perc/cel came first, I think not). I don't seem to have received the original post on this, so I'm not sure what the question was. Could anyone fill me in? I'm sure I would have noticed it, since the Subject line is rather intriguing. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: {Spam} Re: [Finale] OT: historical use of C clefs for voice parts
On 11/21/2010 1:43 PM, John Howell wrote: At 7:24 AM -0500 11/21/10, David H. Bailey wrote: I understand the use of clefs to transpose from concert pitch music to the differently keyed transposing instruments, but is there a chart somewhere which does things in reverse? So that looking at a part for F horn, for example, which is printed in the treble clef, what clef would one use to show what the concert pitch note is? Not sure what you mean by "in reverse," David, but for the example you give both F horn and English horn--any F instrument, actually--you imagine its being in mezzo-soprano clef: middle C on the 2nd line. And in fact I DO think that way when I enter horn notes directly into a transposed score. For Eb alto sax I think bass clef, but have to remember the octave transposition. What I meant by "in reverse" is that if I'm looking at a written F in an F horn part, I can use the mezzo-soprano clef to get the concert pitch note (Bb). But what if I'm looking at a concert pitch score, how do I figure out what note the F horn should play, using clefs? So I'm looking at a printed Bb but need to find a clef that will show me that as an F. I guess the baritone clef would do the trick. But along with all this clef stuff, one needs to also remember the "add 1 flat when going from F-horn to concert pitch" and "remove 1 flat when going from concert pitch to F horn." That makes all the various rules regarding the use of clefs pretty daunting to learn and remember. I find it much easier to think of transposition in a more fixed manner: F on an F horn equals Bb in concert pitch. Doesn't matter which end of that statement I'm coming from, since the equality works both ways. And it doesn't matter whether the Bb is because of the key signature or because of an accidental, the equality still applies. Given the limited number of common transpositions (instrument in Eb, instrument in F, instrument in A, instrument in G) it's not that hard to remember them. For instruments a whole step away from concert pitch (Bb, D) it's either up a whole step or down a whole step, which has always been easy for me to work with. And when I draw a blank I go back to "instrument in G means that when it plays what it thinks is a C, it's actually a G" and get my bearings that way. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] bartók pizz. : line up vs. down
for example, not used in bartok string quartets 1 (1908-09) and 2 (1915-17) [don't have 3 (1927) handy] but used in 4th (1928) and onwards. i don't have the 4th handy weither but know the snap pizz is used there for sure. if my memory is right, he used it first in the 3rd sq., but not much. don't know much about other string works (or if music for strings/perc/cel came first, I think not). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
