[Finale] Re: Point sizes et al.
At 2:02 AM -0600 12/19/10, Noel Stoutenburg wrote: Finale has you specify the size of the systems, and trusts you to choose parameters (e.g., system margines, staff sizes, and inter-stave spacing) such that five systems will fit. May I simply put in a word here for those of us who have to READ the music that's produced? It has always been so easy to shrink the music in Finale that engravers have been sorely tempted to do so to get more on each page. That should NOT be your goal! Your goal should be to make your music readable. Hal Leonard publication are often printed too small for those of us with older eyes to read readily, as are those of one of the composers in our Community Band. And don't forget that string players normally read 2 to a stand, so the MOLA standards ask for good sized staves. When I was using Mosaic, I knew exactly what my point sizes were, and sticking to them gave me good results. And when I use Sibelius I find that the default sizes are intelligently chosen and almost always work. Finale has always invited layout problems by making some things TOO easy to change. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] {Spam} iPad as electronic music stand
At 11:01 AM -0500 12/18/10, Christopher Smith wrote: Wouldn't iPads be substantially heavier than an average choral folder, and more likely to be dropped? All the choirs I see have at least one folder drop per rehearsal/concert. I haven't handled one, so I don't know. And of course if a folder is dropped it doesn't break! But instrumentalists talk about placing them on a music stand (or a keyboard music rack), while singers generally do not use stands and choir risers are not sized to make using them easy, so they would have to be hand-held. An add-on strap to fit over the hand, like the better choral folders have, would be a good safety feature. But I wouldn't expect Apple to offer one for what is obviously marketed as a general-purpose item. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] RE: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23
O.T. I wonder if the original "debts" didn't come from the Kol Nidre text (in
Aramaic) that opens the Yom Kippur observance, although the translation is
"oaths" and "vows," and it refers not to ones made to one's fellow, but to God.
Both Jewish and Christianoi texts were parallel, if not identical, up until
200 C.E.
And you're right - a debt and a trespass are wholly different things. The idea
of a debt to God . . .
Joyful Season!
SCL
From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] on behalf of
finale-requ...@shsu.edu [finale-requ...@shsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 1:00 PM
To: finale@shsu.edu
Subject: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23
Send Finale mailing list submissions to
finale@shsu.edu
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
finale-requ...@shsu.edu
You can reach the person managing the list at
finale-ow...@shsu.edu
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Finale digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Completely O.T. (John Howell)
2. Re: Completely O.T. (David W. Fenton)
3. Re: Completely O.T. (Phil Daley)
4. Re: Completely O.T. (Andrew Moschou)
--
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 14:51:52 -0500
From: John Howell
Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.
To:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 7:27 AM -0800 12/20/10, Dean M. Estabrook wrote:
>I have an ex student F.B. friend, who wants to know if the last line
>of this Old English version means "deliver us from evil," or from
>"Yule." Any experts?
>
>Dean
What's "F.B."? Fullback?
But I would certainly trust the majority of modern English
translations, in which it is certainly "deliver us from evil." "Y"
often subsituted for "i" or "e," and "u" and "v" were still
considered the same letter as were "i" and "j." Not bad for a text
that had to make its way from Aramaic through Latin (and possibly
Greek as well) into the variety of modern and not-so-modern languages.
Although I'm a bit surprised that the church would have allowed a
vernacular translation in the 13th century (which I believe might be
Middle English rather than Old, which is basically German), since the
church reserved to itself the interpretation of scripture and
actively discouraged translations. That was the century of Eleanore
of Aquitane and King Henry II (two of whose sons became Kings and
several of whose daughters became Queens), and while the politics
were wide open, the hold of the church was definitely NOT!
It's also interesting to note that this version uses debts ("dettys")
rather than the opposing translation "trespasses." I've always
wondered where THAT difference in translations came from, since it's
a rather different meaning. And it's also missing the modern ending,
which makes me wonder when THAT was added. Linguistics and semantics
are fascinating subjects, which I have studied much too little.
>
> This is a 13th century version. Oure Fader that art in heuene,
>halewed be thi name. Thi kyngdom come to us. Thi wylle be don, as in
>heuene, & in erthe. Oure eche dayes breed geue us to day. & forgeue
>us oure dettys, as we forgeue oure dettourys. And ne lede us not in
>temptacyon, but delyuere us of yuel. Amen.
John
--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:john.how...@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
"We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
--
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 15:23:57 -0500
From: "David W. Fenton"
Subject: Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.
To:
Message-ID: <4d0fbb5d.1538.19ecc...@lists.finale.dfenton.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
On 20 Dec 2010 at 14:51, John Howell wrote:
> it's also missing the modern ending,
> which makes me wonder when THAT was added.
You mean the lesser doxology, i.e., "For thine is the kingdom, and
the power, and the glory, for ever and ever."
There are two versions in the scriptures, and only one of them
includes the doxology. And the Catholic church still uses the version
WITHOUT the doxology to this day.
I knew all of that already (having been a heavy-duty church musician
for many years before grad school), but the Wikipedia article is
quite informative on that and a number of other subjects:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer
It includes a discussion of debts/trespasses, too.
(this is one of those cases where from my point of view, Wikipedia is
delightfully good, and better than one would expect)
--
David W. Fenton
[Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT
Hello, everyone. I've run into a symbol on an oboe part that I've never seen before..it's a flat sign with a caret or marcato accent at the top of the stem. I don't think it's a misprint since the composer provided a special fingering for the note. The Dolmesch library calls it a "microtonal 'flat up' sign", which doesn't help because it isn't defined. Alas, the composer is no longer with us. Do any of you composers out there have any idea what this strange beastie is, and how to perform it? Many thanks, and Holly Happydays to you all! Barb Levy barb...@msn.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT
My guess is that the caret is supposed to be an arrowhead indicating that the note is to be raised a quarter tone. For example, if the symbol is on the note B, it should be a quarter tone up from Bb. On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Barbara Levy wrote: > > Hello, everyone. > > I've run into a symbol on an oboe part that I've never seen > before..it's a flat sign with a caret or marcato accent at the top > of the stem. I don't think it's a misprint since the composer provided a > special fingering for the note. The Dolmesch library calls it a "microtonal > 'flat up' sign", which doesn't help because it isn't defined. Alas, the > composer is no longer with us. > > Do any of you composers out there have any idea what this strange beastie > is, and how to perform it? > > Many thanks, and Holly Happydays to you all! > > Barb Levy > barb...@msn.com > > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale > ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT
probably a (tempered) quarter tone. depending on the composer and context it could also be a non-tempered microtonal inflection... could also be a 6th or 8th tone. but i would also assume quarter tone if you can't find any other information. if you can conclude for certain that it is a quarter tone and you have the authority to do so, you would be best to change it to the backwards flat, a **much** more standardized quarter tone notation. My guess is that the caret is supposed to be an arrowhead indicating that the note is to be raised a quarter tone. For example, if the symbol is on the note B, it should be a quarter tone up from Bb. check out oboe fingering charts, it could in fact refer to an existing oboe treatise... some quarter tone charts on this site, but not oboe: http://www.wfg.woodwind.org/sax/sax_qt_1.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT
Who is the composer? That would likely determine wether it is a tempered quarter tone or notation for a just interval. Steve Parker On 21 Dec 2010, at 19:12, Barbara Levy wrote: Hello, everyone. I've run into a symbol on an oboe part that I've never seen before..it's a flat sign with a caret or marcato accent at the top of the stem. I don't think it's a misprint since the composer provided a special fingering for the note. The Dolmesch library calls it a "microtonal 'flat up' sign", which doesn't help because it isn't defined. Alas, the composer is no longer with us. Do any of you composers out there have any idea what this strange beastie is, and how to perform it? Many thanks, and Holly Happydays to you all! Barb Levy barb...@msn.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Completely O.T.
At 3:09 PM +1030 12/21/10, Andrew Moschou wrote: English, before the Normal invasion, was one of the most literary and scholarly languages in Europe. I don't question your information, but that surprises me, especially since my impression is that before 1066 there WAS no "English" language, but a mixture of Anglo-Saxon and whatever the native language was in the South, probably with different dialects in every valley separated by mountains. And of course Latin was the language of the church, of scholarship, and of international diplomacy (such as it was!). After 1066 of course, Norman French became the language of government and the military, Latin remained the language of scholarship and diplomacy, and "English" grew up among the common people with no grammarians paying attention to enforce "rules." Or do I have it wrong? John Wyclif's translation after that time helped to restore that status and it was definitely not allowed by the Church. I have assumed that that was the translation approved by Henry's Parliament a couple of hundred years later, but I've never read anything to confirm that. I thoroughly recommend the documentary at http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/adventure-of-english/ (which can be viewed online) for a history of the English language. Thank you! I will find that of great interest. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT
What does the special fingering produce? Dalvin Boone -Original Message- From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of Steve Parker Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 3:57 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Notation question -- sort of OT Who is the composer? That would likely determine wether it is a tempered quarter tone or notation for a just interval. Steve Parker On 21 Dec 2010, at 19:12, Barbara Levy wrote: > > Hello, everyone. > > I've run into a symbol on an oboe part that I've never seen > before..it's a flat sign with a caret or marcato accent at > the top of the stem. I don't think it's a misprint since the > composer provided a special fingering for the note. The Dolmesch > library calls it a "microtonal 'flat up' sign", which doesn't help > because it isn't defined. Alas, the composer is no longer with us. > > Do any of you composers out there have any idea what this strange > beastie is, and how to perform it? > > Many thanks, and Holly Happydays to you all! > > Barb Levy > barb...@msn.com > > ___ > Finale mailing list > Finale@shsu.edu > http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23
On 21 Dec 2010 at 18:15, Susan Lackman wrote: > O.T. I wonder if the original "debts" didn't come from the Kol Nidre > text (in Aramaic) that opens the Yom Kippur observance, although the > translation is "oaths" and "vows," and it refers not to ones made to > one's fellow, but to God. Both Jewish and Christianoi texts were > parallel, if not identical, up until 200 C.E. > > And you're right - a debt and a trespass are wholly different things. > The idea of a debt to God . . . Didn't anyone bother to read the Wikipedia article I cited? It addresses this issue directly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Prayer -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] RE: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23
At 6:15 PM + 12/21/10, Susan Lackman wrote: O.T. I wonder if the original "debts" didn't come from the Kol Nidre text (in Aramaic) that opens the Yom Kippur observance, although the translation is "oaths" and "vows," and it refers not to ones made to one's fellow, but to God. Both Jewish and Christianoi texts were parallel, if not identical, up until 200 C.E. And you're right - a debt and a trespass are wholly different things. The idea of a debt to God . . . David Fenton referred me to the Wikipedia article, which is remarkably complete and very detailed, Apparently in at least one language the word used also translates as "sins." And there are indeed two rather different versions extant, in two different Gospels. The "approved" versions in any specific religion were, of course, determined by committee vote, just like Congress--which is actually a rather scary thought! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] RE: Finale Digest, Vol 89, Issue 23
On 21 Dec 2010 at 21:27, John Howell wrote: > And there are > indeed two rather different versions extant, in two different > Gospels. The "approved" versions in any specific religion were, of > course, determined by committee vote, just like Congress--which is > actually a rather scary thought! If it had worked the way our US Congress does today, we wouldn't have any Lord's Prayer at all -- it would have been filibustered. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
