Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
On 12/4/2013 12:49 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: To amplify Chuck's point, it's important to understand that the musical samples using the JABB library on the Garritan site were not generated from Finale. They were created using digital audio workstation software, which is really the environment for which these samples were originally designed. And even then, using the DAW software that Darcy mentions, there was a lot of tweaking by professionals. As with anything in life, to get great results usually great effort is required. That's especially true in the musical world. So if you don't already own DAW software and have learned all the minutiae of possible tweaks and the use of plug-ins, etc. to assist in getting the desired sound, don't run out and buy one expecting the JABB sounds to immediately sound better. One can hope that since MakeMusic bought Garritan they will better incorporate the use of Garritan sounds into Finale and will give us greater control so that in some future version of Finale we'll all be better able to get great results without having to export our files to a DAW in order to sound like those demo files. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com http://www.davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
I agree 100% with what Chuck said. Without tweaking, it is pretty lame. I struggle with the volume levels. I really have to work to get anything heard in the mix. Spreading out the stereo field helps a lot. Adjusting the way Finale interprets articulations, especially the marcato mark, helps, but not nearly as much as I had hoped. In other instrument libraries, you hear a real difference in timbre from the low velocities to the high velocities. For example, really hammering on a piano doesn't sound anything like delicate playing. The winds have the same degree of variation -- if not a lot more -- and none of that seems to come through with the Garritan sounds. It is particularly frustrating with a shout chorus that is common in big band charts. In those sections, you expect the winds (especially the brass) to really sizzle, but you will probably not achieve anything like that effect with the JABB library. I don't know that there is a better solution out there. Maybe technology just hasn't progressed enough yet. It does seem to have progressed (in other libraries) with pianos, guitars, basses, drum kits, and strings. Nonetheless, I agree that it is worth $75. It is going to be better than MIDI playback without any tweaking. On 12/3/2013 1:03 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: The JABB sounds are better but not great. Piano, bass, drums, guitar and baritone sax are good. Clarinet, bass clarinet and flute are good. Upper saxes and brass are a lot less good. We expect (justifiably) such nuance and shaping of those sounds in the jazz style that it is probably too much to expect to think that static samples would be satisfactory. All in all, the sounds are helpful to me. I have learned to estimate pretty well what a good band will sound like from the JABB kazoos, but you have to make some balance adjustments in the mixer. The trombones are far too loud for the rest of the sounds. My take is that they are worth $75. Hope this helps. Chuck Chuck Israels (360) 201-3434 Sent from my iPad ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
Part of this situation may well involve Human Playback. It still is NOT clear to me that HP interprets dynamics correctly/wisely. It seems to use a combination of CC7 volume and CC1 modwheel. Under that circumstance, the tone of winds and brass will not change as much as it would if CC1 dominated the dynamics. The tradeoff with Garritan samples is cost, integration with Finale, and library size versus expressive capability. To that end, the samples were designed such that velocity controlled attack for winds and brass instead of having various attack samples, and CC1 controlled volume AND added brightness via filter as dynamics increased (instead of using multi-velocity-layer samples). The samples were also offered dry, in order to allow users to control the sound environment. Of course, ANY sample library will sound bad out of the box. Having said that, I will also express an opinion that MM has done a very poor job of integrating Garriten instruments into the operation of Finale. Furthermore, HP remains a black box with limited customization, and the MIDI Tool--the ideal place to do tweaking--has remained unchanged since I first bought Finale 2.0 in 1989 or so. Configuration files and essential XML files are strewn about a user's hard drive instead of having a central location, and simple typos in XML files prohibit users from loading instruments properly. When MM acquired Garritan's IP, I hoped for seamless integration into Finale. If anything, it's gotten worse instead of better. James C. Williams, MBA, CFP E. B. Lacy Professor of Business Franklin College Euphonium Player Around several Towns From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [finale-boun...@shsu.edu] on behalf of Craig Parmerlee [cr...@parmerlee.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:09 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale I agree 100% with what Chuck said. Without tweaking, it is pretty lame. I struggle with the volume levels. I really have to work to get anything heard in the mix. Spreading out the stereo field helps a lot. Adjusting the way Finale interprets articulations, especially the marcato mark, helps, but not nearly as much as I had hoped. In other instrument libraries, you hear a real difference in timbre from the low velocities to the high velocities. For example, really hammering on a piano doesn't sound anything like delicate playing. The winds have the same degree of variation -- if not a lot more -- and none of that seems to come through with the Garritan sounds. It is particularly frustrating with a shout chorus that is common in big band charts. In those sections, you expect the winds (especially the brass) to really sizzle, but you will probably not achieve anything like that effect with the JABB library. I don't know that there is a better solution out there. Maybe technology just hasn't progressed enough yet. It does seem to have progressed (in other libraries) with pianos, guitars, basses, drum kits, and strings. Nonetheless, I agree that it is worth $75. It is going to be better than MIDI playback without any tweaking. On 12/3/2013 1:03 AM, Chuck Israels wrote: The JABB sounds are better but not great. Piano, bass, drums, guitar and baritone sax are good. Clarinet, bass clarinet and flute are good. Upper saxes and brass are a lot less good. We expect (justifiably) such nuance and shaping of those sounds in the jazz style that it is probably too much to expect to think that static samples would be satisfactory. All in all, the sounds are helpful to me. I have learned to estimate pretty well what a good band will sound like from the JABB kazoos, but you have to make some balance adjustments in the mixer. The trombones are far too loud for the rest of the sounds. My take is that they are worth $75. Hope this helps. Chuck Chuck Israels (360) 201-3434 Sent from my iPad ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
If I could insert my own reverb on a track by track basis ... If I could insert my own compressors ... If I could use a transient shaper VST ... It could sound a lot more like what people are accustomed to hearing. Hopefully in some Finale release soon. On 12/3/2013 2:37 PM, Williams, Jim wrote: Part of this situation may well involve Human Playback. It still is NOT clear to me that HP interprets dynamics correctly/wisely. It seems to use a combination of CC7 volume and CC1 modwheel. Under that circumstance, the tone of winds and brass will not change as much as it would if CC1 dominated the dynamics. The tradeoff with Garritan samples is cost, integration with Finale, and library size versus expressive capability. To that end, the samples were designed such that velocity controlled attack for winds and brass instead of having various attack samples, and CC1 controlled volume AND added brightness via filter as dynamics increased (instead of using multi-velocity-layer samples). The samples were also offered dry, in order to allow users to control the sound environment. Of course, ANY sample library will sound bad out of the box. Having said that, I will also express an opinion that MM has done a very poor job of integrating Garriten instruments into the operation of Finale. Furthermore, HP remains a black box with limited customization, and the MIDI Tool--the ideal place to do tweaking--has remained unchanged since I first bought Finale 2.0 in 1989 or so. Configuration files and essential XML files are strewn about a user's hard drive instead of having a central location, and simple typos in XML files prohibit users from loading instruments properly. When MM acquired Garritan's IP, I hoped for seamless integration into Finale. If anything, it's gotten worse instead of better. James C. Williams, MBA, CFP E. B. Lacy Professor of Business Franklin College Euphonium Player Around several Towns ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
Thanks for all the replies. Chuck weighed in first last night before the sale ran out, so Garritan JABB3 is on my desktop waiting to be opened. Check out the samples on the Garritan site: http://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/ How much tweaking had to be done here? Can anyone point me to some self-help resources for setting up maximizing Garritan JABB? Thanks again! Giz Richmond VA |-Original Message- |From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of |Craig Parmerlee |Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:10 PM |To: finale@shsu.edu |Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale | |I agree 100% with what Chuck said. Without tweaking, it is pretty lame. |I struggle with the volume levels. I really have to work to get anything heard in |the mix. Spreading out the stereo field helps a lot. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
Don't know how to measure the amount of tweaking to get Margot's Mood to sound like that, but I can tell you I couldn't even imagine how it was done. I know Robert Sogetti did the work on the Garritan examples in my arranging book (Gary Garritan instigated the writing of the book, found and hired Robert to do the work) and the results are pretty musical. Again, no idea what goes into that, but it's a lot. Chuck Israels (360) 201-3434 Sent from my iPad On Dec 3, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Girard Bowe girard.b...@verizon.net wrote: Thanks for all the replies. Chuck weighed in first last night before the sale ran out, so Garritan JABB3 is on my desktop waiting to be opened. Check out the samples on the Garritan site: http://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/ How much tweaking had to be done here? Can anyone point me to some self-help resources for setting up maximizing Garritan JABB? Thanks again! Giz Richmond VA |-Original Message- |From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of |Craig Parmerlee |Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:10 PM |To: finale@shsu.edu |Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale | |I agree 100% with what Chuck said. Without tweaking, it is pretty lame. |I struggle with the volume levels. I really have to work to get anything heard in |the mix. Spreading out the stereo field helps a lot. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
To amplify Chuck's point, it's important to understand that the musical samples using the JABB library on the Garritan site were not generated from Finale. They were created using digital audio workstation software, which is really the environment for which these samples were originally designed. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On Dec 4, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net wrote: Don't know how to measure the amount of tweaking to get Margot's Mood to sound like that, but I can tell you I couldn't even imagine how it was done. I know Robert Sogetti did the work on the Garritan examples in my arranging book (Gary Garritan instigated the writing of the book, found and hired Robert to do the work) and the results are pretty musical. Again, no idea what goes into that, but it's a lot. Chuck Israels (360) 201-3434 Sent from my iPad On Dec 3, 2013, at 8:04 PM, Girard Bowe girard.b...@verizon.net wrote: Thanks for all the replies. Chuck weighed in first last night before the sale ran out, so Garritan JABB3 is on my desktop waiting to be opened. Check out the samples on the Garritan site: http://www.garritan.com/products/jazz-big-band-3/ How much tweaking had to be done here? Can anyone point me to some self-help resources for setting up maximizing Garritan JABB? Thanks again! Giz Richmond VA |-Original Message- |From: finale-boun...@shsu.edu [mailto:finale-boun...@shsu.edu] On Behalf Of |Craig Parmerlee |Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2013 2:10 PM |To: finale@shsu.edu |Subject: Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale | |I agree 100% with what Chuck said. Without tweaking, it is pretty lame. |I struggle with the volume levels. I really have to work to get anything heard in |the mix. Spreading out the stereo field helps a lot. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Garritan Sale
Just got in and saw that Garritan is offering 50% off their JABB set for CyberMonday. I'm wondering if those sounds are any better than the Finale/Garritan sounds. The trumpet, sax trombone sound synthesized - they're just terrible. However, the samples on the website are killer. If they're the same sounds, how much tweaking has to be done to get them to sound right? I don't need a bunch of special effects; I don't need a bunch of obscure instruments. If I could get decent horn sounds easily, it would be worth $75 to me. Just wondering if anybody has any insight. And if good sounds are possible from the resident Garritan setup in Finale 2014, how do I get them? If anyone has a quick answer, that would be great. I've got till 12 CST to take advantage of the sale. Thanks! Giz ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Garritan Sale
The JABB sounds are better but not great. Piano, bass, drums, guitar and baritone sax are good. Clarinet, bass clarinet and flute are good. Upper saxes and brass are a lot less good. We expect (justifiably) such nuance and shaping of those sounds in the jazz style that it is probably too much to expect to think that static samples would be satisfactory. All in all, the sounds are helpful to me. I have learned to estimate pretty well what a good band will sound like from the JABB kazoos, but you have to make some balance adjustments in the mixer. The trombones are far too loud for the rest of the sounds. My take is that they are worth $75. Hope this helps. Chuck Chuck Israels (360) 201-3434 Sent from my iPad On Dec 2, 2013, at 9:23 PM, Girard Bowe girard.b...@verizon.net wrote: Just got in and saw that Garritan is offering 50% off their JABB set for CyberMonday. I'm wondering if those sounds are any better than the Finale/Garritan sounds. The trumpet, sax trombone sound synthesized - they're just terrible. However, the samples on the website are killer. If they're the same sounds, how much tweaking has to be done to get them to sound right? I don't need a bunch of special effects; I don't need a bunch of obscure instruments. If I could get decent horn sounds easily, it would be worth $75 to me. Just wondering if anybody has any insight. And if good sounds are possible from the resident Garritan setup in Finale 2014, how do I get them? If anyone has a quick answer, that would be great. I've got till 12 CST to take advantage of the sale. Thanks! Giz ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
