RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
You can hear a different sort of pre-echo or distortion on some long LPs because the grooves are close together and the stampers push the walls of the neighboring grooves of the soft vinyl. Interesting. I always assumed that it was either because of the tape masters' print through or because the 'other side' of the wall of the groove made the thickness vary and hence resonate differently than if it were smooth. Kind of like tapping on a wall that has a hollow space behind it. Richard Yates ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
At 5:51 PM -0400 4/11/08, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: On Fri, April 11, 2008 4:42 pm, Richard Willis wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do cassette tapes fare? Have they been known to have these type problems, too? I don't know about the gumminess. I've never seen one with the problems, likely because cassette formulations were quite a bit different from reels at the time. In fact, if I recall correctly, the original cassettes back in the '60s DID use the formulations previously used on reel-to-reel tapes, but at the extremely slow speed the cassettes ran (1 7/8 i.p.s.?) the response was dreadful. Later formulations were MUCH better. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
On Fri, April 11, 2008 8:36 pm, John Howell wrote: At 5:51 PM -0400 4/11/08, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: On Fri, April 11, 2008 4:42 pm, Richard Willis wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do cassette tapes fare? Have they been known to have these type problems, too? I don't know about the gumminess. I've never seen one with the problems, likely because cassette formulations were quite a bit different from reels at the time. In fact, if I recall correctly, the original cassettes back in the '60s DID use the formulations previously used on reel-to-reel tapes, but at the extremely slow speed the cassettes ran (1 7/8 i.p.s.?) the response was dreadful. Later formulations were MUCH better. Correct -- that's because by the time of the gumminess problem (1980s), research had gone into manufacturing cassette tape of much higher quality. The cassette boom was encouraged when the Philips patent ran out, and new formulations and new devices (like the Fostex 4-track home studio) were introduced. That research actually helped drive higher-quality reel tapes as well, and by the demise of reels in the 1990s, there were Type II gum-free tapes from Maxell, TDK, and Ampex. My reels done in dbx I (linear compression) are quite wonderful -- but even some of the radio shows mastered on that Fostex (with Dolby C, I think) were surprisingly professional sounding. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
On Sat, April 12, 2008 1:11 am, Richard Yates wrote: I always assumed that it was either because of the tape masters' print through or because the 'other side' of the wall of the groove made the thickness vary and hence resonate differently than if it were smooth. Kind of like tapping on a wall that has a hollow space behind it. Sounds like a possibility as well. Lots could go wrong with LPs. I knew a lathe engineer who described how hard it was to cut the masters, and how he would sit for the entire length of the cutting session gently lifting off the cut thread of vinyl. He said it had to be perfect, and he did it with thin gloves to avoid pulling too hard and disturbing the cutter or adding distortion, or too pulling too softly and having the vinyl thread fall into the cutting path. He told me the pre-echo was from stamping but could also come from the automatic pitch (groove distance in this case) not responding adequately. It's been a long time since I've thought about this! My own collection of some 3,000 LPs sits very quietly in the hallway. The only records that I play these days come in for restoration ... cool old USO disks, funky home recordings, the occasional treasured 78, etc. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
Just out of curiosity, how do cassette tapes fare? Have they been known to have these type problems, too? Richard -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Bathory-Kitsz Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 7:02 AM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes I'm on deadline but had to jump in here. This tape-baking is something that I do for restoration clients, and although I replied to Vivian privately, I have to respond to this message before folks do the wrong thing. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, on 4/9/2008 5:15 AM: 2) The baking process he refers to is a last resort; let's start with the first resort. If you know these are gummy tapes, this is the first resort for some very good reasons. 3) Let's ssume you still own a reel-to-reel player that works (not a safe assumption unless it's direct-drive; if there are rubber belts involved, they have a finite lifetime). If you do have one that works, play one of the tapes and see for yourself what condition it's in. Do NOT play the tapes. Whether they are gummy, flaking, non-Mylar, etc., amateur handling can damage them. Even in otherwise good situations, splices can fail and tangle the tapes unexpectedly. There are ways of handling tests, and just playing a tape isn't the place to start. 4) At level one of detioration, there will be drop-outs, because the glue that attaches the magnetized iron particles (which is how your signal is encoded) to the (usually) mylar tape base also has a lifetime. Some of the magnetized iron can literally fall off over time. If you open the box and there's rust-colored dust in it--that ain't good. Mylar and usually paper tape binding is good. Acetate tape loses its binding, sometimes catastrophically. All tape types (and there are others) can be damaged by test playing, especially for those who used thinner tapes (especially .5 mil Mylar) back in the day when these were popular with home recordists or people who wanted to get a lot of recording time and didn't realize the consequences. Even playing thin tapes can ruin them linearly with folds and creases. Playing tapes with poor binding can cause oxide to fall off. 5) At level two of detioration, which is what you are worried about, serious fluctuations in termperature and humidity (particularly humidity) while in storage will actually turn some or all of the iron/glue/mylar product into congealed gunk. If that's your situation, you need to follow Christopher's instructions. Depending on the degree of gunkiness, baking may or may not save a portion of your material. Gumminess is not an issue of storage. It's an issue of long-term chemistry with certain formulations of tape, including very well stored Ampex mastering tapes from the 1980s. These will go gummy irrespective of how they were stored; my own top-of-the-line Ampex masters from this era are all gummy, while most of the Maxell masters are fine. 6) It's a little late for this, but reel-to-reel archivists have always recommended end-to-end rewinding of all your tapes once a year. That way, if a process of adhesion to the next layer has begun at a low level, they will get aired out. If your tapes are still in playable condition, please consider doing this in the future. Do NOT -- repeat do NOT -- rewind potentially gummy or flaky tapes. With gummy tapes, even if the layers are not stuck together (which is rare, except at splices), this will cause the gummy surface to heat, stick, pull off oxide and create clots of oxide on the tape surface that have to be removed by hand. The gummy tape will ALWAYS get caught in the guides and usually snap and make a tangled mess. With flaky tapes, the oxide will shear off in great sheets before there's time to stop it. When I prepare old tapes, I test first, then if working with a tail-out tape that requires winding to the front, I slowly wind on a special jig with the oxide OUT and not in contact with any hardware. Handle tapes as little as possible; clean and repair splices first. I have a huge reel-to-reel collection, and the dire predictions about the shortness of the half-life of the medium are greatly exaggerated. The first tapes I made in 1957 are still in perfect condition; and keeping them this way is not the mission impossible it's sometimes made out to be. 1957 was likely acetate. Depending on how those were stored, they will either be in perfect condition, warped (they are organic materials), moldy, flaking, etc. You do NOT want to find out they're about to flake into a pile of oxide when you're test-playing or -rewinding them. If the tapes in question are masters or only copies, find someone who has done restoration and get some advice FIRST. They should give you a free or nominal cost recommendation on one of your tapes. If they've done gummy or flaky tapes before, they will know almost immediately. Should yours be gummy tapes
RE: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
On Fri, April 11, 2008 4:42 pm, Richard Willis wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do cassette tapes fare? Have they been known to have these type problems, too? I don't know about the gumminess. I've never seen one with the problems, likely because cassette formulations were quite a bit different from reels at the time. They have other less serious problems, mostly in warped cases, lost lubricant on the slip sheets, broken splices at the leader, and dry glue that causes the felt pressure pads to come off. Only the latter might cause physical damage if the tape is played. But by and large, because of the small size of the shell and the numerous built-in guides, they don't suffer from damage. And good chrome cassettes hold up very well over the years; some of my own earliest are in perfect shape, and I've never met one that's come in for restoration whose actual tape was problematic. Best to you, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
Isn't the biggest problem with cassettes print-through, that is, that signal copies from itself onto blank sections of tape? This is heard most typically as a pre-echo, a ghostly preview of music before a segment starts. Doesn't this get worse with age and storage? Raymond Horton Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: On Fri, April 11, 2008 4:42 pm, Richard Willis wrote: Just out of curiosity, how do cassette tapes fare? Have they been known to have these type problems, too? I don't know about the gumminess. I've never seen one with the problems, likely because cassette formulations were quite a bit different from reels at the time. They have other less serious problems, mostly in warped cases, lost lubricant on the slip sheets, broken splices at the leader, and dry glue that causes the felt pressure pads to come off. Only the latter might cause physical damage if the tape is played. But by and large, because of the small size of the shell and the numerous built-in guides, they don't suffer from damage. And good chrome cassettes hold up very well over the years; some of my own earliest are in perfect shape, and I've never met one that's come in for restoration whose actual tape was problematic. Best to you, Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
On Fri, April 11, 2008 10:30 pm, Ray Horton wrote: Isn't the biggest problem with cassettes print-through, that is, that signal copies from itself onto blank sections of tape? This is heard most typically as a pre-echo, a ghostly preview of music before a segment starts. Doesn't this get worse with age and storage? All tapes suffer from print-through, both pre- and post-echo ... though pre-echo is more annoying because it doesn't fall into the reverb. There's some old 35MM film recordings that Command Classics released on LP, and even with that thick medium you can hear the pre-echo. You can hear a different sort of pre-echo or distortion on some long LPs because the grooves are close together and the stampers push the walls of the neighboring grooves of the soft vinyl. Because of the higher noise level, narrower tracks, and generally looser tape pack, cassettes are not much worse, except for the extended-play ones (120 minutes) using thin tape. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
DON'T TEST: Re: [Finale] copying reel to reel tapes
I'm on deadline but had to jump in here. This tape-baking is something that I do for restoration clients, and although I replied to Vivian privately, I have to respond to this message before folks do the wrong thing. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote, on 4/9/2008 5:15 AM: 2) The baking process he refers to is a last resort; let's start with the first resort. If you know these are gummy tapes, this is the first resort for some very good reasons. 3) Let's ssume you still own a reel-to-reel player that works (not a safe assumption unless it's direct-drive; if there are rubber belts involved, they have a finite lifetime). If you do have one that works, play one of the tapes and see for yourself what condition it's in. Do NOT play the tapes. Whether they are gummy, flaking, non-Mylar, etc., amateur handling can damage them. Even in otherwise good situations, splices can fail and tangle the tapes unexpectedly. There are ways of handling tests, and just playing a tape isn't the place to start. 4) At level one of detioration, there will be drop-outs, because the glue that attaches the magnetized iron particles (which is how your signal is encoded) to the (usually) mylar tape base also has a lifetime. Some of the magnetized iron can literally fall off over time. If you open the box and there's rust-colored dust in it--that ain't good. Mylar and usually paper tape binding is good. Acetate tape loses its binding, sometimes catastrophically. All tape types (and there are others) can be damaged by test playing, especially for those who used thinner tapes (especially .5 mil Mylar) back in the day when these were popular with home recordists or people who wanted to get a lot of recording time and didn't realize the consequences. Even playing thin tapes can ruin them linearly with folds and creases. Playing tapes with poor binding can cause oxide to fall off. 5) At level two of detioration, which is what you are worried about, serious fluctuations in termperature and humidity (particularly humidity) while in storage will actually turn some or all of the iron/glue/mylar product into congealed gunk. If that's your situation, you need to follow Christopher's instructions. Depending on the degree of gunkiness, baking may or may not save a portion of your material. Gumminess is not an issue of storage. It's an issue of long-term chemistry with certain formulations of tape, including very well stored Ampex mastering tapes from the 1980s. These will go gummy irrespective of how they were stored; my own top-of-the-line Ampex masters from this era are all gummy, while most of the Maxell masters are fine. 6) It's a little late for this, but reel-to-reel archivists have always recommended end-to-end rewinding of all your tapes once a year. That way, if a process of adhesion to the next layer has begun at a low level, they will get aired out. If your tapes are still in playable condition, please consider doing this in the future. Do NOT -- repeat do NOT -- rewind potentially gummy or flaky tapes. With gummy tapes, even if the layers are not stuck together (which is rare, except at splices), this will cause the gummy surface to heat, stick, pull off oxide and create clots of oxide on the tape surface that have to be removed by hand. The gummy tape will ALWAYS get caught in the guides and usually snap and make a tangled mess. With flaky tapes, the oxide will shear off in great sheets before there's time to stop it. When I prepare old tapes, I test first, then if working with a tail-out tape that requires winding to the front, I slowly wind on a special jig with the oxide OUT and not in contact with any hardware. Handle tapes as little as possible; clean and repair splices first. I have a huge reel-to-reel collection, and the dire predictions about the shortness of the half-life of the medium are greatly exaggerated. The first tapes I made in 1957 are still in perfect condition; and keeping them this way is not the mission impossible it's sometimes made out to be. 1957 was likely acetate. Depending on how those were stored, they will either be in perfect condition, warped (they are organic materials), moldy, flaking, etc. You do NOT want to find out they're about to flake into a pile of oxide when you're test-playing or -rewinding them. If the tapes in question are masters or only copies, find someone who has done restoration and get some advice FIRST. They should give you a free or nominal cost recommendation on one of your tapes. If they've done gummy or flaky tapes before, they will know almost immediately. Should yours be gummy tapes, the baking process is not difficult (and you can do it yourself with a proper baking setup with inexpensive equipment -- NOT a kitchen stove), but also requires knowing if the tapes contain splices or have other problems (including splicing different lots of tape together). Everyone who does restoration has personal
