Re: [Finale] Expression marks
Title: Re: [Finale] Expression marks Jonathan, I agree. To expand on that, I follow these rules: 1) Things that apply to *all* parts, i.e. stuff that a conducter needs to know (letter "A", tempo markings, accl., rit., rall., etc), should *always* be places above the staff. They are structural markers and should always be extremely clear and predictable. No exceptions here...*EVER* 2) _expression_ directions (dolce, espress., legato, etc.) should be place where it is meaningful, particularly when there is more than one voice involved in a single part. There are so many variables involved, that no one rule works 100% of the time. Some of you say that putting them below the staff, but when there are many dynamics and hairpins involved, that makes no sense at all because there is no room for the _expression_ without putting it so far below everything else, that it is not readily seen. I put them closest to where they apply. 3) Hairpins, and "cresc . . . poco . . . a . . . poco", etc. should be placed under the staff...HOWEVER...many rules go out the window with polyphonic writing, which demands that these are placed closest to the line that it applies. 4) With articulations, the only things that should be on the "note side" and within the staff are staccatos and tenutos; everything else should be above the staff. For those of you who have seen my articulations font examples shows many other articulations under the staff. This is to demonstrate that "flipped" characters do exist in the font and not my preferred practice, but to be available for polyphonic writing. My mantra is "be impossible to be misunderstood". If you are paying $6000 per hour in a recording session, it makes a huge difference if there are no questions about what you mean. Several people here have said before that rhythm is paramount. I would include structural clarity to that. That is, to me, the only hard and fast rule to notation. The rest depends on the situation: The "right" way is NOT to generate questions about what you mean. Bill Duncan From: Jonathan Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: finale@shsu.edu Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2006 08:14:42 +0100 To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] _expression_ marks Into which category do you place rit, accel, rallentando, ect? These are all changes of tempi which should be placed above the staff and be clear to read as they will apply to instruments. Jonathan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
RE: [Finale] Expression marks
Into which category do you place rit, accel, rallentando, ect? Richard Smith www.rgsmithmusic.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Smith Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 2:26 PM To: finale@shsu.edu Subject: [Finale] _expression_ marks Instructional - Above staff Stylistic - Below staff Could you explain the difference in meaning here? Instructional: con sord. – 2nd time only – stagger breathing – Play – Oboe cue – h.o.b. – sul tasto – div. a3 Stylistic: ruvido – espressivo – legato – dolce Jonathan ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On 05.03.2006 John Howell wrote: To me this is flatly wrong. The only exceptions would be when an expression modifies a dynamic mark (as: p e dolce) or in a vertical spacing emergency. My reaction was the same, but I have another question. Our community band is preparing a concert program that includes several pieces in which all the accents are above the notes, even though (in the tuba part) the vast majority of notes are stems up on the staff. Is this an acceptable variation, or a particular publisher's aberration? It's a bit disconcerting to read, which tells me it is not standard practice. Not taking sides here, but in European style instrumental parts (orchestra or chamber music), at least as far as strings are concerned, I am more used to having "espressivo", "dolce" etc below the staff. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On 6 Mar 2006 at 10:44, Jonathan Smith wrote: > Instructional - Above staff > Stylistic - Below staff Could you explain the difference in meaning here? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On Mar 5, 2006, at 8:58 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Mar 5, 2006, at 10:43 PM, Karen wrote: On Mar 5, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: "Carrot"-type accents Caret! No - she was talking about the elongated, orange, high-in-fiber markings. Not exactly common, but what can you do? :) cd -- No, actually I'm pretty sure I know what I meant and it wasn't about vegetable markings. Spelling is more the issue here...not one of my strengths. Thank you Andrew for the correction. :-) Best, "She" (snip) and bass players like to know the root as do the tuber players at times Sorry, very late and silly out here... No worriesI yam pretty tired myselfI've saa got to maca my way to bed... Good nightdon't let the nematodes bite! -K ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
Christopher Smith wrote: "Carrot"-type accents Caret! No - she was talking about the elongated, orange, high-in-fiber markings. Not exactly common, but what can you do? :) No, actually I'm pretty sure I know what I meant and it wasn't about vegetable markings. Spelling is more the issue here...not one of my strengths. Thank you Andrew for the correction. :-) Well, lettuce not forget it is often better to mark the beet, and bass players like to know the root, even on gigs that pay small potatoes. Sorry, very late and silly out here... That's OK - I relish a good joke. (Not that it really was, but...) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On Mar 5, 2006, at 10:43 PM, Karen wrote: On Mar 5, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: "Carrot"-type accents Caret! No - she was talking about the elongated, orange, high-in-fiber markings. Not exactly common, but what can you do? :) cd -- No, actually I'm pretty sure I know what I meant and it wasn't about vegetable markings. Spelling is more the issue here...not one of my strengths. Thank you Andrew for the correction. :-) Best, "She" Well, lettuce not forget it is often better to mark the beet, and bass players like to know the root, even on gigs that pay small potatoes. Sorry, very late and silly out here... Christopher %-) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On Mar 5, 2006, at 4:01 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: Andrew Stiller wrote: "Carrot"-type accents Caret! No - she was talking about the elongated, orange, high-in-fiber markings. Not exactly common, but what can you do? :) cd -- No, actually I'm pretty sure I know what I meant and it wasn't about vegetable markings. Spelling is more the issue here...not one of my strengths. Thank you Andrew for the correction. :-) Best, "She" ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
Andrew Stiller wrote: "Carrot"-type accents Caret! No - she was talking about the elongated, orange, high-in-fiber markings. Not exactly common, but what can you do? :) cd -- http://www.livejournal.com/users/dershem/# ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
"Carrot"-type accents Caret! Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On Mar 5, 2006, at 9:42 AM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: At 12:01 AM 3/5/06 -0800, Karen wrote: For me, it depends on the genre. When I'm writing jazz, I put my articulations above the notes. When I'm working on film music, I put the articulations on the note head side of the notes with exception of "Carrot"-type accentsthose I always put above the notes. Among other items I always put above the notes are stops, mutes, harmonics, bow direction, and special effects symbols (unless they're specific to a pitch in a group). Yes...same for me these I also put above the notes always. -K However, I engrave music of several composers who insist for aesthetic reasons that all symbols go above the notes. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
At 12:01 AM 3/5/06 -0800, Karen wrote: >For me, it depends on the genre. When I'm writing jazz, I put my >articulations above the notes. When I'm working on film music, I put >the articulations on the note head side of the notes with exception >of "Carrot"-type accentsthose I always put above the notes. Among other items I always put above the notes are stops, mutes, harmonics, bow direction, and special effects symbols (unless they're specific to a pitch in a group). However, I engrave music of several composers who insist for aesthetic reasons that all symbols go above the notes. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
At 12:01 AM -0800 3/5/06, Karen wrote: Hi John, For me, it depends on the genre. When I'm writing jazz, I put my articulations above the notes. When I'm working on film music, I put the articulations on the note head side of the notes with exception of "Carrot"-type accentsthose I always put above the notes. The latter seems to be pretty standard in Hollywood. Thanks, Karen, and thanks to the others who have commented similarly. I'd say from this that above the note articulations are out of place in concert band music, but the engraver didn't know that. Our summer Community Musical this year will be the year 2000 revival of "Kiss Me, Kate," and I'm hoping against hope that Don Sebesky's revised charts will be computer engraved and not hand copied by the contractor's drunk brother-in-law! John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
To me where I put dolce et al ---depends on who it's for. For the whole band -- on top but for particular instruments below. At least that's how I seen things done. i agree with David accents next to notes -- but I except that where a whole patch of notes is accented and spacing makes note side cramped to the eye. Jerry Gerald Berg On 5-Mar-06, at 3:26 AM, Karen wrote: Hi David, I don't think there is anything iron-clad per se. Many of the orchestrators I work with put dolce, espr. marcato etc. above the staff. But there are a couple of very well schooled, accomplished orchestrators here who put these below the staff. The latter are very "traditionally schooled" if you will. But the orchestrators who put expression marks above the staff are by no means considered to be doing things "wrongly." Just a different way of doing things. In my understanding, while "Lively", "Slowly" etc. may be expressive in nature, they are still considered tempo indicators rather than expressions. -K On Mar 4, 2006, at 10:23 AM, David Froom wrote: It seems to be a slow day, so here is a copying question: For years, for non-vocal music, I have always put expressive marks (like espressivo and dolce and feroce and so on) above the line. I have seen this in some published music, and I like keeping it cleanly separated from dynamics. And thinking was, since tempo markings often include expression (like Lively, or Slow, with great expression), and since these go above, why not keep all expressive marks above? I was looking over something someone gave me maybe 10 years ago -- a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. Is there variability on this? Is it a matter of style? Or is it iron-clad (like "slurs always above stems going in different directions" or dynamics always below the staff)? Opinions? David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
John Howell wrote: At 3:25 PM -0500 3/4/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, David Froom wrote: a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. To me this is flatly wrong. The only exceptions would be when an expression modifies a dynamic mark (as: p e dolce) or in a vertical spacing emergency. My reaction was the same, but I have another question. Our community band is preparing a concert program that includes several pieces in which all the accents are above the notes, even though (in the tuba part) the vast majority of notes are stems up on the staff. Is this an acceptable variation, or a particular publisher's aberration? It's a bit disconcerting to read, which tells me it is not standard practice. John Articulations should (in my not-so-humble opinion) always be placed next to the notehead, NOT the stem. And especially tuba parts, where they go so low below the staff, that forcing one's eyes to focus on such wide spacing is begging for them to ignore the articulations in an effort to get the pitch and the rhythm correct. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
Hi David, I don't think there is anything iron-clad per se. Many of the orchestrators I work with put dolce, espr. marcato etc. above the staff. But there are a couple of very well schooled, accomplished orchestrators here who put these below the staff. The latter are very "traditionally schooled" if you will. But the orchestrators who put expression marks above the staff are by no means considered to be doing things "wrongly." Just a different way of doing things. In my understanding, while "Lively", "Slowly" etc. may be expressive in nature, they are still considered tempo indicators rather than expressions. -K On Mar 4, 2006, at 10:23 AM, David Froom wrote: It seems to be a slow day, so here is a copying question: For years, for non-vocal music, I have always put expressive marks (like espressivo and dolce and feroce and so on) above the line. I have seen this in some published music, and I like keeping it cleanly separated from dynamics. And thinking was, since tempo markings often include expression (like Lively, or Slow, with great expression), and since these go above, why not keep all expressive marks above? I was looking over something someone gave me maybe 10 years ago -- a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. Is there variability on this? Is it a matter of style? Or is it iron-clad (like "slurs always above stems going in different directions" or dynamics always below the staff)? Opinions? David Froom ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
Hi John, For me, it depends on the genre. When I'm writing jazz, I put my articulations above the notes. When I'm working on film music, I put the articulations on the note head side of the notes with exception of "Carrot"-type accentsthose I always put above the notes. The latter seems to be pretty standard in Hollywood. Best, Karen My reaction was the same, but I have another question. Our community band is preparing a concert program that includes several pieces in which all the accents are above the notes, even though (in the tuba part) the vast majority of notes are stems up on the staff. Is this an acceptable variation, or a particular publisher's aberration? It's a bit disconcerting to read, which tells me it is not standard practice. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
John, All articulations above the staff is standard B'way/jazz practice (see Clinton Roemer). Once you get used to it, it's actually much easier to read that way, as the eye doesn't have to jump around so much. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://secretsociety.typepad.com Brooklyn, NY On 04 Mar 2006, at 9:19 PM, John Howell wrote: At 3:25 PM -0500 3/4/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, David Froom wrote: a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. To me this is flatly wrong. The only exceptions would be when an expression modifies a dynamic mark (as: p e dolce) or in a vertical spacing emergency. My reaction was the same, but I have another question. Our community band is preparing a concert program that includes several pieces in which all the accents are above the notes, even though (in the tuba part) the vast majority of notes are stems up on the staff. Is this an acceptable variation, or a particular publisher's aberration? It's a bit disconcerting to read, which tells me it is not standard practice. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
At 3:25 PM -0500 3/4/06, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, David Froom wrote: a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. To me this is flatly wrong. The only exceptions would be when an expression modifies a dynamic mark (as: p e dolce) or in a vertical spacing emergency. My reaction was the same, but I have another question. Our community band is preparing a concert program that includes several pieces in which all the accents are above the notes, even though (in the tuba part) the vast majority of notes are stems up on the staff. Is this an acceptable variation, or a particular publisher's aberration? It's a bit disconcerting to read, which tells me it is not standard practice. John -- John & Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
David Froom wrote: It seems to be a slow day, so here is a copying question: For years, for non-vocal music, I have always put expressive marks (like espressivo and dolce and feroce and so on) above the line. I have seen this in some published music, and I like keeping it cleanly separated from dynamics. And thinking was, since tempo markings often include expression (like Lively, or Slow, with great expression), and since these go above, why not keep all expressive marks above? I was looking over something someone gave me maybe 10 years ago -- a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. Is there variability on this? Is it a matter of style? Or is it iron-clad (like "slurs always above stems going in different directions" or dynamics always below the staff)? Opinions? Interestingly, I notice that tempo expressions such as rall. and rit. are placed below the staff, but I quite often see A Tempo above the staff. I usually see dynamic expressions and articulation expressions below the staff. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Expression marks
On Mar 4, 2006, at 1:23 PM, David Froom wrote: a style manual from Schirmer that is also used by Peters (and others, I assume). They say that expression marks ALWAYS go below the staff. To me this is flatly wrong. The only exceptions would be when an expression modifies a dynamic mark (as: p e dolce) or in a vertical spacing emergency. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
