Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. To clear up some misinformation that was part of this thread, please look at the CURRENT issue (June 2011) of Consumer Reports which tells a very different story than what was incorrectly reported here about MACs. I would post the link to the Consumer Reports article but you need a subscription. http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/25/macbooks-get-highest-score-in-all-consumer-re ports-categories/ The whole pie back and forth has made me hungry. I like Pecan and Apple pie if pie is being offered :-) Cheers, Steve 5/24/11 11:20 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 9:31 PM -0700 5/23/11, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Man, you are a moron huh? Children, children, let's just chill out, OK? No one is going to change anyone's mind about platforms or peripherals or software unless they are ready and willing to change their minds, so how about scaling back the hot rhetoric and getting back to questions and suggestions that can actually help someone out. I can't remember (and don't really care) who started the discussion (or perhaps better, the hissy fit!), but it might have been more helpful to identify what kind of equipment that person was already used to instead of leaving it wide open. COOL IT!!! John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Hmmm, it's almost like they came to my defense. Or getting a supreme court ruling in ones favor..but Macs are niche computers. Sent from my iSomething On May 25, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. To clear up some misinformation that was part of this thread, please look at the CURRENT issue (June 2011) of Consumer Reports which tells a very different story than what was incorrectly reported here about MACs. I would post the link to the Consumer Reports article but you need a subscription. http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/25/macbooks-get-highest-score-in-all-consumer-re ports-categories/ The whole pie back and forth has made me hungry. I like Pecan and Apple pie if pie is being offered :-) Cheers, Steve ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. Actually you were getting way out of control with the personal insults and puns on list participants last names. And then whined about childish behavior. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Hello Kim, Wow! My first post on this list in many months and first post to this thread and you attack me for personal insults and puns on list participants last names...huh? I think you've got the wrong guy. Have a pint. Cheers, Steve 5/25/11 12:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. Actually you were getting way out of control with the personal insults and puns on list participants last names. And then whined about childish behavior. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale e...@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 20:11, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Look, the fact is that a cheap laptop isn't going to hack it. Even David Fenton agrees. I DID NOT SAY THAT. It may very well be that for a particular user a $300 laptop is going to be JUST FINE -- it depends entirely on how any particular individual is using it. I'm only disputing two pieces of conventional wisdom: 1. Macs are more expensive than PCs -- not true when you configure the PC exactly the same as the Mac. 2. it's a good idea to buy a cheap throwaway PC and just get a new one every coupld of years. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
I think no one care about what you have to say. Consumer Reports.highest rated. They could have argued as you do but did not. They see the facts. Your arguments are old and tired. Yet you continue. Go have a pint. This is over. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Yeah, On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Hmmm, it's almost like they came to my defense. Or getting a supreme court ruling in ones favor..but Macs are niche computers. Sent from my iSomething On May 25, 2011, at 7:23 AM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. To clear up some misinformation that was part of this thread, please look at the CURRENT issue (June 2011) of Consumer Reports which tells a very different story than what was incorrectly reported here about MACs. I would post the link to the Consumer Reports article but you need a subscription. http://www.tuaw.com/2011/05/25/macbooks-get-highest-score-in-all-consumer-re ports-categories/ Apple computer users and fans are notoriously religious about their support for their products, so I'm not surprised at that result ;) And yes, they're still a niche market item, and have about 10 percent share of the market no matter how much hand waving you do. And as I clearly showed yesterday (which no one rebutted), you can get a comparable computer at a significant savings. You shared personal stories about your experiences with Apple computers, I shared mine: they suck. Thanks! :-) Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sorry, misfired communique ;) My apologies. On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Hello Kim, Wow! My first post on this list in many months and first post to this thread and you attack me for personal insults and puns on list participants last names...huh? I think you've got the wrong guy. Have a pint. Cheers, Steve 5/25/11 12:55 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Fiskum, Steve fisk...@jspaluch.com wrote: Thanks John for taking the reigns. These horses were getting out of control. Actually you were getting way out of control with the personal insults and puns on list participants last names. And then whined about childish behavior. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale e...@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: I think no one care about what you have to say. Consumer Reports.highest rated. They could have argued as you do but did not. They see the facts. Your arguments are old and tired. Yet you continue. Highest rated by Apple consumers, notoriously religious about their products. So highly rated they only are 10 percent of the United States market and only 5 worldwide (excluding Amazon, where Glenn Beck and Apple rank no 1 by REAL people). Most people pick cheaper computers that are just as good for the general market (i.e. not niche market users). I'll have three pints with all that money I've saved. *Wink wink* Thanks! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 24 May 2011 at 10:59, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: The Mac is slightly lighter, Slightly? It weighs only 2/3s what the Acer does, 4.5 lbs. vs. over 6. That's a HUGE difference. has a harder polycarbonate plastic case. Big deal. Not worth spending the 600 dollars I saved, because I'm not in the habit of throwing my property around. Nobody is suggesting that you personally buy a Mac. Or that you do anything at all. The point of dispute is whether the machines you say are equivalent really are, and they quite plainly are not. And I'm not swayed by any the bundled software included on the Mac, I don't use that on Windows either. The bundled software on Windows PCs is crapware -- free stuff that is intended as marketing to get people to buy the pay version. The bundled software on Macs is REAL SOFTWARE that is very well- designed, full-featured, and not installed as an enticement to buy the pro version. That is a definite apples and oranges comparison you've just made there. After all, I don't buy computers for software, I buy them for, well computers! Fancy that! So here, have your slice of crow pie too. Grow up, Kim. You and Eric are acting like 2-year-olds. Or you going to nitpick this to death and tell me why the features I think are not important are really not important? Being the betting man that I am, I'm willing to predict yes. You are not reading for content. I've not told you anything about what you should or should not value, or which computer you should or should not buy. I've limited my comments to two important points that are very, very often completely overlooked because people obsess with the price tag. I'm saying that obsession is shortsighted and based on an incorrect reading of the facts. I'm building my case for this bit by bit, providing facts and citations as I go along. You, on the other hand, are calling names. Hmm. That does not mean that some people won't find the cheapo PC fine for their needs. It only means that the conventional wisdom about Macs being more expensive is WRONG. Not really, I've seen some of the articles about that, and most of the comparisons are crap. Ya know Apples and Oranges ? *Wink wink wink* I think it depends on a case by case situation. Show me a PC configured with the same hardware and software as a Mac that is significantly cheaper than the Mac. The problem with those who make the argument you are making is that they refuse to actually make the comparison -- they discount those factors that aren't important to them, instead of going down the line and valuing each particular component of each machine. This is an intellectually dishonest way of discussing something like this. I'm trying to introduce facts. You're going with emotion and name calling. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 24 May 2011 at 8:04, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Actually, what is meant is that you can simply take the hard drive out of one Mac, say an iMac, and have use it on a macpro. It boots up just fine. Windows can't do that as far as I know. It can if you have the same hardware, as you do with Macs. But because Windows PCs are not a closed and proprietary system, that's simply not the case -- you can't do it except if the machines are very close siblings (as are most Macs). So the system disk on my 2006 iMac, which has smart music registered on it, I can take home and boot my macpro off that drive and it just works. Though most people would probably use the great migration tool apple has where you simply connect a FireWire cable between two macs and it will copy all your apps, docs, and settings to a new Mac I see this feature as a nice recovery/emergency feature, but not as something that makes a Mac superior to a Windows machine. By the way, corporations find value in this, and tend to buy large numbers of identical computers so that they can do exactly this (though they wouldn't swap a hard drive -- they'd just re-image a system). But for individual users, it's usually not practical as the benefit is not great enough to justify the additional expense of limiting oneself to a particular vendor's product line. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 12:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: It can if you have the same hardware, as you do with Macs. But because Windows PCs are not a closed and proprietary system, that's simply not the case -- you can't do it except if the machines are very close siblings (as are most Macs). Not the same hardware. It works for any Mac. The 10.6 system I have on my 2006 iMac I can take the drive home and boot my 2008 MacPro off of. Same for laptops. Or MacMini's. Though it won't work if say that computer isn't supported by the system, like the G4 MacMini have won't boot into 10.6 which dropped G4/G5 support. I think 10.7 is going to not work on my 2006 iMac due to the video card.if the rumors I hear are true. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 12:57, Eric Dannewitz wrote: On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 12:29 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: It can if you have the same hardware, as you do with Macs. But because Windows PCs are not a closed and proprietary system, that's simply not the case -- you can't do it except if the machines are very close siblings (as are most Macs). Not the same hardware. Well, by same hardware I didn't mean identical -- for instance, I meant that if you had two Lenovo Thinkpads (even if one were 2 or 3 years older than the other), you could likely swap the hard drives and have it reconfigure and boot successfully. That is a situation that is isomorphic with the Mac. If two Windows machine have compatible motherboards and BIOS, they will very likely be able to have the hard drives swapped. The benefit of this is something that I wouldn't spend extra money on, but it is something is nice to have for emergencies. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 14:06, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Apple computer users and fans are notoriously religious about their support for their products, so I'm not surprised at that result Anyone who is intellectually honest has to recognize the superiority of Apple's hardware and software. It just isn't an issue that's disputable. However, not that I'm not an Apple user at all -- I don't like Macs and feel very uncomfortable using them. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Windows user and think Windows 7 is pretty wonderful and promote it to all and sundry. But that doesn't stop me from being able to recognize the strengths of Apple's hardware and software. Of course, that's because it's not a religious issue for me -- it's a matter of evaluting information objectively. And objectivity seems to be in very short supply in this discussion. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
True enough -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 1:04 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Well, by same hardware I didn't mean identical -- for instance, I meant that if you had two Lenovo Thinkpads (even if one were 2 or 3 years older than the other), you could likely swap the hard drives and have it reconfigure and boot successfully. That is a situation that is isomorphic with the Mac. If two Windows machine have compatible motherboards and BIOS, they will very likely be able to have the hard drives swapped. The benefit of this is something that I wouldn't spend extra money on, but it is something is nice to have for emergencies. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:26 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 24 May 2011 at 10:59, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: The Mac is slightly lighter, Slightly? It weighs only 2/3s what the Acer does, 4.5 lbs. vs. over 6. That's a HUGE difference. Yeah, 1.5 lbs. OOoo how WILL I lift that laptop!? The bundled software on Windows PCs is crapware -- free stuff that is intended as marketing to get people to buy the pay version. The bundled software on Macs is REAL SOFTWARE that is very well- designed, full-featured, and not installed as an enticement to buy the pro version. So what? I stated it's not anything I would use either on the PC or MAC, regardless of what type it is. But here's a free clue: I could still buy several software applications as good as what's on the Mac and still come out ahead. But it's a moot point: I don't buy the computer for the software it has, because I already own copies of what I need and upgrade them as they become obsolete. And I have a lot more software options than the limited Apple market (which as I stated going to get more narrow in the future with Lion's move to isolate viruses in software by limiting even further what apps they'll offer) You are not reading for content. Neither are you. I've not told you anything about what you should or should not value, or which computer you should or should not buy. Neither did I. Actually I stated my personal experiences with Apple: they've not been good. I offered another website as a suggested vehicle for finding good deals for any platform, I only mentioned a good deal I found as an example of that. You asked for a hardware comparison, I gave you one, and then did exactly what you told me not to do: nitpick on things that are not important and talk about software as adding value to computer when it's not a factor for my purchase in the first place. And if they're such great value: why are they only ten percent of the market share after nearly 25 years in business? Is the market that wrong? Apple products appeal to a small but very vocal and loyal fan base. Thanks ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:36 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 25 May 2011 at 14:06, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Anyone who is intellectually honest has to recognize the superiority of Apple's hardware and software. It just isn't an issue that's disputable. That's a No True Scotsman logical fallacy, if I have ever heard one. However, not that I'm not an Apple user at all -- I don't like Macs and feel very uncomfortable using them. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Windows user and think Windows 7 is pretty wonderful and promote it to all and sundry. Ditto that. But that doesn't stop me from being able to recognize the strengths of Apple's hardware and software. Of course, that's because it's not a religious issue for me -- it's a matter of evaluting information objectively. And of course, saying your objective is well, pretty subjective. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sigh.where is the facts to support this? There is absolutely NO PROOF of this. Period. Apple simply took the great selling App Store they had for their iOS devices and brought it to the Mac. Yes, they are a little strict but one does not have to get their software through that. And Macs do not have viruses. Ever. They have had a couple of malware and trojans, but not a virus. There is a lot of FUD going on here.. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: And I have a lot more software options than the limited Apple market (which as I stated going to get more narrow in the future with Lion's move to isolate viruses in software by limiting even further what apps they'll offer) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 15:54, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 3:26 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 24 May 2011 at 10:59, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: The Mac is slightly lighter, Slightly? It weighs only 2/3s what the Acer does, 4.5 lbs. vs. over 6. That's a HUGE difference. Yeah, 1.5 lbs. OOoo how WILL I lift that laptop!? Only someone who has not actually carried around a laptop all the time would underrate this. 4.5 pounds is actually the sweet spot where a laptop crosses from being unwieldy and heavy to being not at all difficult to carry around. Three pounds is even better, but you pay a real price premium to get a decent machine at that weight. The bundled software on Windows PCs is crapware -- free stuff that is intended as marketing to get people to buy the pay version. The bundled software on Macs is REAL SOFTWARE that is very well- designed, full-featured, and not installed as an enticement to buy the pro version. So what? I stated it's not anything I would use either on the PC or MAC, regardless of what type it is. And nobody is saying you SHOULD. But when comparing the value and cost of an Mac and a PC in the abstract (as opposed to considering it for the individual needs of one person), you have to consider EXACTLY WHAT IS INCLUDED and what it is worth. You can't just throw out the things that don't matter to you and say it doesn't count when the issue is an objective comparison of what you get in the base prices of the computers you're comparing. But here's a free clue: I could still buy several software applications as good as what's on the Mac and still come out ahead. But it's a moot point: I don't buy the computer for the software it has, The key word here is I -- and that word is not relevant to an objective 1:1 comparison of what you get for the price of the two computers. This is something you seem unable to get past. because I already own copies of what I need and upgrade them as they become obsolete. And I have a lot more software options than the limited Apple market (which as I stated going to get more narrow in the future with Lion's move to isolate viruses in software by limiting even further what apps they'll offer) The Apple software market is not limited by any stretch of the imagination. You are not reading for content. Neither are you. Well, now you've managed to bring this discussion down to the same childish level of your interactions with Eric. Nice job, Kim. I've not told you anything about what you should or should not value, or which computer you should or should not buy. Neither did I. Actually I stated my personal experiences with Apple: they've not been good. But you're ARGUING WITH ME as though I've told you you shouldn't have bought the laptop you did. I've never even addressed that issue. My participation in this discussion is on the question of whether Macs are really more expensive than PCs. They aren't when you do a real 1:1 comparison. On the other hand, when you throw out components and refuse to consider them (or mischaracterize one side of the question, e.g., claiming there's a limited selection of Apple software), you're no longer doing an objective comparison. THAT'S JUST FINE WITH ME -- you have every right to be subjective and to prioritize which components are valuable to you personally and which are not. But your personal preferences are not relevant to the question of the 1:1 comparison of the two computers. I offered another website as a suggested vehicle for finding good deals for any platform, I only mentioned a good deal I found as an example of that. You asked for a hardware comparison, I gave you one, No, you gave me a review, not a comparison. It didn't consider any number of issues that are important for a 1:1 comparison. and then did exactly what you told me not to do: nitpick on things that are not important You're very narcissistic in your participation here -- what matters to you is all you consider to be important, whereas I've been trying to compare the WHOLE PACKAGE. and talk about software as adding value to computer when it's not a factor for my purchase in the first place. I didn't say it should be -- I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT YOUR PURCHASE DECISION. I'm not talking about it, and I NEVER WAS AT ANY POINT. I've only been addressing the issue of the objective 1:1 price comparison, and for that, you have to consider the whole package, and not just the needs of a particular user. And if they're such great value: why are they only ten percent of the market share after nearly 25 years in business? Why did VHS win out over Betamax? It wasn't because VHS was better. Is the market that wrong? Markets are quite frequently wrong, but I don't think it's a valid question here. There's plenty of room in the market for a wide range of products for a wide range of users.
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Sigh.where is the facts to support this? There is absolutely NO PROOF of this. Period. Apple simply took the great selling App Store they had for their iOS devices and brought it to the Mac. Yes, they are a little strict but one does not have to get their software through that. And Macs do not have viruses. Ever. They have had a couple of malware and trojans, but not a virus. That's hysterical Eric. Really. Just on face value that's a ton of laughs. You want to argue semantics now over what Virus and Malware is? But here is a list: http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/index/query/V/ and for more recent vintage stuff: http://antivirus.downloadatoz.com/news/41,top-4-antivirus-software-for-mac-os-x-lion.html There is a lot of FUD going on here.. Yes, I agree. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 13:22, Eric Dannewitz wrote: And Macs do not have viruses. Ever. They have had a couple of malware and trojans, but not a virus. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the vernacular use of the term virus, but the fact is, when somebody talks about needing anti- virus software on a PC, they mean to protect against malware and Trojans and worms. So, what you really mean is: Macs CAN have viruses, but they are very rare. For Windows users, I recommend ditching McAfee, Symantec, AVG or any of the pay AV/security software suites and instead installing Microsoft's free Microsoft Security Essentials. I've been using it for nearly two years now, and have been gradually installing it on all my clients' PCs, and everybody has been happy with it. It has a low CPU footprint and seems to catch everything. The pay security software suites usually make your PC run worse, and don't protect you any better than the free software from MS. And they eat up huge portions of your available CPU cycles, most of it for marketing purposes (seems to me, given how hit-and-miss they are in actually protecting against threats). As to viruses on Windows, as more and more users switch to versions of Windows with UAC (User Access Control, i.e., Vista/Windows 7), that problem will diminish greatly for Windows users, as well. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:54 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 25 May 2011 at 13:22, Eric Dannewitz wrote: And Macs do not have viruses. Ever. They have had a couple of malware and trojans, but not a virus. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the vernacular use of the term virus, but the fact is, when somebody talks about needing anti- virus software on a PC, they mean to protect against malware and Trojans and worms. So, what you really mean is: Macs CAN have viruses, but they are very rare. That's because they have such a small market share. Why bother writing viruses, maleware, etc that would only affect 10 percent of computers, and very few are enterprise systems at all. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 17:21, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:54 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 25 May 2011 at 13:22, Eric Dannewitz wrote: And Macs do not have viruses. Ever. They have had a couple of malware and trojans, but not a virus. Perhaps you're unfamiliar with the vernacular use of the term virus, but the fact is, when somebody talks about needing anti- virus software on a PC, they mean to protect against malware and Trojans and worms. So, what you really mean is: Macs CAN have viruses, but they are very rare. That's because they have such a small market share. Why bother writing viruses, maleware, etc that would only affect 10 percent of computers, and very few are enterprise systems at all. Actually, no. It's because Macs since OS X have been relatively difficult to exploit compared to Windows. Even if market share were 50:50, there would be more Windows exploits because the security model was so bad. Vista/Windows 7 brings a change in that, with UAC, which prohibits you from running processes with administrative permissions unless you OK it (as is the case on Mac and on Linux with SU and such). It's not that user-level execution cannot do damage, it's just that it can do a lot less. As Windows XP sunsets, there will be fewer and fewer successful Windows exploits, and I would expect the number of malware writers targetting the Mac to increase (since the level of difficulty and the amount of damage that is doable will then be comparable). Given the fact that Mac users wrongly feel immune to the threat, I'd think it would be ripe for exploitation! -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Jesus..you are giving a link to a site that is referring to OS 6? And the second link doesn't say ANYTHING relevant. So System 6 is your proof? That was what, 1990? 20 years ago? Really? Ok, let me correct myself, Mac OS X has never had a virus. Nada. I have not heard of ONE outbreak of a virus. And since Malware has a wide range of things it can cover (including viruses, trojans), I'll take that back. The Mac has had like 2 Trojans. One is the Defender thing going around, and the other was like 2 years ago with Pirated copies of iLife 09. But nothing that would warrant a Mac user to install Kaspersky or any other software. At all. And Apple is supposedly going to issue an update anytime that addresses the Defender thing. And you didn't even argue the whole Apple limiting its software via the App Store thing. It is simply there as a choice for users and developers. I know I've found a lot of software I've never heard of on the AppStore. Back up the claims Mr. You can't. So laugh then I guess. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: That's hysterical Eric. Really. Just on face value that's a ton of laughs. You want to argue semantics now over what Virus and Malware is? But here is a list: http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/index/query/V/ and for more recent vintage stuff: http://antivirus.downloadatoz.com/news/41,top-4-antivirus-software-for-mac-os-x-lion.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011, at 21:52, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: But here is a list: http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/index/query/V/ Most of this list is from the early '90s, some I remember and they were proof of concept viruses created by anti-virus software manufacturers, which still required significant user errors to 'infect'. Macs these days are not virus-free because of lower market share but because of inherent UNIX security. I wish I could disable some of it, but a mac 'virus' would need to be run despite the mac asking for your password thrice, calling you an idiot once then asking for your gran's password.. Mac antivirus creators are 'fishing'.. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
What I mean is that Macs have had 2 Trojans, one of which was caused by people downloading Pirated versions of iLife 09. The other is this Defender thing that is going around. That is it. So.very very very very very very rare I guess. Like getting hit by a baseball, in a thunder storm, during the equinox, during an earthquake rare. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Wednesday, May 25, 2011 at 1:54 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Macs CAN have viruses, but they are very rare. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote: And yet, there are unix viruses too. The oldest trojans were unix based. Macs these days are not virus-free because of lower market share but because of inherent UNIX security. I wish I could disable some of it, but a mac 'virus' would need to be run despite the mac asking for your password thrice, calling you an idiot once then asking for your gran's password.. Mac antivirus creators are 'fishing'.. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Jesus..you are giving a link to a site that is referring to OS 6? And the second link doesn't say ANYTHING relevant. So System 6 is your proof? That was what, 1990? 20 years ago? Really? Hey you're the one that said there hasn't been a Mac virus. Not me. Don't get mad. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 14:11, Eric Dannewitz wrote: What I mean is that Macs have had 2 Trojans, one of which was caused by people downloading Pirated versions of iLife 09. The other is this Defender thing that is going around. That is it. So.very very very very very very rare I guess. Like getting hit by a baseball, in a thunder storm, during the equinox, during an earthquake rare. But that's the main vector for malware on Windows in the last 10 years, too -- it's social engineering that causes people to install stuff they don't intend. And much of it comes through web browsers (not just IE, in fact). So, there really is not much difference in this area between Windows and Mac except for two factors: 1. lots of Windows user are still running WinXP as administrator, which makes them inherently vulnerable to the maximum damage possible. 2. that fertile field means Mac is not yet a very attractive platform for exploiting. As WinXP is retired, near parity will be the result and Mac users will need to be on their guard. But the good news is that the better security model means that it will be harder to exploit everybody's computers, so it will likely be the case that more and more of the malware will use social engineering (i.e., trick you into approving its installation). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed May 25, at WednesdayMay 25 4:52 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: You want to argue semantics now over what Virus and Malware is? But here is a list: http://www.iantivirus.com/threats/index/query/V/ and for more recent vintage stuff: http://antivirus.downloadatoz.com/news/41,top-4-antivirus-software-for-mac-os-x-lion.html Sorry to jump into a platform war and interfere with your argument, but I went to those links to find out what problems I might be looking at as a Mac user. It seems that in the first list there is nothing that affects OSX except an iChat trojan, and I found nothing at all in your second link except protection against theoretical viruses (but I was having trouble following the writer's English.) I do make a distinction between viruses and other malware, because of the way viruses can be distributed with very little action on the part of the victims. Heck, I've gotten things interfering with my Facebook usage, which isn't really a virus, but I don't like it. Hey, maybe Finale's unwanted behaviours could be classified as malware, too? Don't turn on Pickup Measures or your file will stop working the way you want it to! 8-) BTW, David has been making cogent points, except that not ALL the bundled software with new Macs are the full-fledged programs. Some are only demo versions, like Pages. Having never bought a Windows machine, I couldn't compare the quantities. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Wed May 25, at WednesdayMay 25 6:04 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: So, there really is not much difference in this area between Windows and Mac except for two factors: 1. lots of Windows user are still running WinXP as administrator, which makes them inherently vulnerable to the maximum damage possible. David, I am asking your opinion here on this, as I know you are knowledgeable. Do you think that running MacOS as an administrator causes the same vulnerabilities as on Windows? If you don't know enough about the Mac side to say, that's okay. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 17:14, Christopher Smith wrote: BTW, David has been making cogent points, except that not ALL the bundled software with new Macs are the full-fledged programs. Some are only demo versions, like Pages. Having never bought a Windows machine, I couldn't compare the quantities. I didn't realize that -- thanks for the correction. Windows has come with WordPad for a long time, and it can create and edit MS Word-format documents, but it's no substitute for an actual word processor, and I don't use it all any longer (back in Win95 days I did). My observation from reading about the preloaded software on the Mac is that it's well-chosen and well-designed, though not necessarily complete for all the tasks users would need to do. On Windows, the applets that ship with the OS are much more limited. But the real problem on Windows is the 3rd-party demo software that so many vendors install. It's crapware and almost never works well. I don't think Apple allows that kind of thing, and that's one reason the user experience is often better for Mac users (at least, so far as I hear). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 17:14, Christopher Smith wrote: I do make a distinction between viruses and other malware, because of the way viruses can be distributed with very little action on the part of the victims. I don't think that's really the proper distinction. And I'm not certain what the definition of a virus would be. In the old days of floppy disk boot sector viruses, it was pretty easy to understand. Nowadays, the number of vectors and the type of exploits has greatly multiplied, and I don't think there's any simple delineation between the different types. The fact is, there are plenty of possible exploits out that can be run without user intervention because of unpatched vulnerabilities in all kinds of software. These zero-day exploits sound like what you are referring to with your definition above, but they still exist, and they are there for all platforms, including Windows, Mac and Linux. Fortunately, they are relatively hard to discover and generally require a lot of expertise to exploit for any useful purpose. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 25 May 2011 at 18:24, Christopher Smith wrote: On Wed May 25, at WednesdayMay 25 6:04 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: So, there really is not much difference in this area between Windows and Mac except for two factors: 1. lots of Windows user are still running WinXP as administrator, which makes them inherently vulnerable to the maximum damage possible. David, I am asking your opinion here on this, as I know you are knowledgeable. Do you think that running MacOS as an administrator causes the same vulnerabilities as on Windows? If you don't know enough about the Mac side to say, that's okay. My understanding is that running as an admin on a Mac is similar to running as an admin on Windows Vista or Windows 7 -- you may be logged on as an administrative user, but the OS launches applications for you using a user-level security token and not an administrative token. When an application needs permissions beyond what the user- level token permits, the user is prompted to approve it or provide a password to allow it. Before Vista/Windows 7, I set up my clients single-user PCs with two user logons, an admin user that they used only for administrative tasks, and a regular user that they used for the daily work. With UAC (User Access Control) introduced in Vista/Windows 7, this is no longer necessary. I set them up with a single administrative user and they never have to worry about, as when admin permissions are needed, they are prompted without having to log off/on (or use the RunAs service). Now, whether this is as safe as the Mac way (where I think you have to provide the password, as opposed to just clicking YES) is open for debate. But it is definitely safer than running WinXP with an administrative logon all the time (or running Vista/Win7 with UAC turned off). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: I think it's funny when old people get upset. You are like what, 60, and you are using childish references, Glenn beck pictures, and O'Reily references that maybe two other people get? And ass references? Really? I think it's funnier you're upset, for a guy who used personal insults based on a list participant's name, and whining about childish antics, well that's even funnier. Sales figures matter. Why would Apple be in the tops there if they didn't make good products? And 10% of the market is not a true figure. That is figuring in work machines. No, it's based on web analytics, not sales. Unlike determining market share by units sold, Qauntcast measures OS share by comparing the operating system of users via the company's audience measurement services, similar to statistics gathered by Net Applications. Such usage patterns can give us a rough idea of the installed base of an OS among end users. Those end users aren't imaginary people, or unreal people. Sounds like you're the one with vision issues. *Wink wink* area now for whatever reason. Of course you think apple has problems with it's phones but again, the sales numbers don't show that at all..but doesn't really matter for a myopic such as yourself. didn't they sell something like 18 million of those phones last quarter? So what, Nokia sold 107.6 million mobile devices in the first quarter of 2011. I never say NOT to get windows. Just don't get the $300 machine. Its clown-ish. Again, even D. Fenton agrees that it is stupid. That's nice, dear. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 11:26 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 1:44 AM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote:. No, it's based on web analytics, not sales. Unlike determining market share by units sold, Qauntcast measures OS share by comparing the operating system of users via the company's audience measurement services, similar to statistics gathered by Net Applications. Such usage patterns can give us a rough idea of the installed base of an OS among end users. Those end users aren't imaginary people, or unreal people. Sounds like you're the one with vision issues. *Wink wink* Sigh.that doesn't mean anything. That simply means How many things are on the net that are visiting sites that report the traffic to quantcast. It doesn't distinguish between say a computer used in a corporation and one that is being used in a home. It's flawed. I run several websites that are music based (which is more related to what this discussion) and my google analytic data for the last 3 years shows more like 55% windows 36% Mac and 9% other (Linux, mobile devices and stuff) A better example of what people use is to go to like a NAMM show and look at what computers are being used. It's pretty much apple laptops with a very few PCs. Or at least it was last year. Or go to a college campus. Or a Starbucks. For every PC I see I see three macs. At least I think they are macs.those are the ones that are designed well, and have the illuminated apple right? So what, Nokia sold 107.6 million mobile devices in the first quarter of 2011. Smartphones? Hano no. Apple has surpassed them handily.hence their need to partner with Microsoft. Nokia has been in decline for a while now. It's pretty much dead in the states, and in Europe apple Is killing them. http://internet2go.net/news/data-and-forecasts/idc-apple-passes-nokia-europe-q1-smartphone-sales I never say NOT to get windows. Just don't get the $300 machine. Its clown-ish. Again, even D. Fenton agrees that it is stupid. That's nice, dear. Well, it is nice. I'd say that in regards to any purchase of anything windows pc related, if he says avoid a $300 machine then you avoid it. One would be wise to take his advice and spend the money on something worthwhile..something that your not going to regret getting like 2 years later. I'm done. I suggest the original poster look into either a windows machines like David Fenton suggested or some sort of Mac and avoid the $300 special. Spend the money. A Mac should last you a good 4 years plus. I have an iMac from 2006 that serves well in my teaching studio running finale and ProTools 9. A wise pc purchase will also last close to this. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Sigh.that doesn't mean anything. That simply means How many things are on the net that are visiting sites that report the traffic to quantcast. It doesn't distinguish between say a computer used in a corporation and one that is being used in a home. It's flawed. So now the argument is: sales of units and website statistics isn't indicative of how much market share Apple has (the same figures that stock analysts use and Apple would use in its planning(, and your personal data from your websites trumps all of that? Come on dude, you're going to get higher Apple users on browsers because your websites are music related. That's like saying you manage graphic websites and Wow! 50 percent of my website visitors use Apples! It's an important market for you and your websites. It's funny that the web browsing statistics pretty much jells with units sold. http://www.cultofmac.com/apple-cracks-10-pc-market-share-for-first-time-in-decades/63273 Smartphones? Hano no. Apple has surpassed them handily.hence their need to partner with Microsoft. Nokia has been in decline for a while now. It's pretty much dead in the states, and in Europe apple Is killing them. http://internet2go.net/news/data-and-forecasts/idc-apple-passes-nokia-europe-q1-smartphone-sales So you brag about a specific sales figure, I show you a considerably bigger one for Nokia, you go find iPhone stats for Europe, and shout Victory! Nice cherry picking. iOs has 15 percent of units sold compared to 60 plus for the others (Symbian, Android, and Microsoft) 1Q11: http://www.techshout.com/general/2011/23/gartner-mobile-communication-device-sales-touch-428-million-in-1q11/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 17:14, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: iBut you're not getting the same thing for $300 that you would if you pad $800 for a Mac -- if you configured a Windows PC with comparable specifications as the $800 Mac, it will cost about $800, too (and in many cases, it will cost MORE)./i Not in this case, really. I'm way ahead of you on this one. Prove it! I am certain that if I compared your $300 PC laptop to the cheapest Mac laptop, your cheapo PC will come up way short on important features/components. Those may not matter to you (i.e., you may not need those features), but that's not the point -- the point is that if you configure a PC comparably to a Mac model it costs the same or more. That does not mean that some people won't find the cheapo PC fine for their needs. It only means that the conventional wisdom about Macs being more expensive is WRONG. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 14:57, Eric Dannewitz wrote: You do know that windows generally needs to be reinstalled if you switch hardware. I don't know what this is intended to mean. It doesn't sound correct at all. If you get a new PC, yes, you'll have a new copy of Windows (pre- installed). If you build your own PC, you'll have to install Windows. But that's no different from a Mac (for which you don't have the choice of building your own, BTW). The implication of the above is that adding hardware to a PC requires re-installing Windows, and this is not now nor has it ever been correct. Care to clarify what you actually meant? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 15:03, Eric Dannewitz wrote: If not RAID 1 (mirroring for those who don't know what it is), then at least an external drive to backup Daily to and/or a subscription to something like crashplan. In this digital age you really can't afford to NOT to have a backup plan. Though RAID1 won't keep you safe from accidental deletion or filesystem corruption (which is rare nowadays) RAID1 has NOTHING to do with backup at all. My recommendation of RAID1 is not about backup but about reliability and performance (as I said when I made the recommendation). Backup is a rather complex issue, and one that is still pretty hard to navigate (though I must say that Windows 7 finally makes it rather easy to do it properly, though you always need more than one backup strategy), mostly because people don't understand that you need multiple levels of redundant backup in order to be relatively safe. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 18:14, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Old link, but still pertinent: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10442_7-6511774-10.html?tag=rb_content;rb _mtx And that Acer was significantly cheaper than the Apple product. Name the Apple product model so that a real side-by-side comparison can be done. You will find if you do that comparison that the cheapo Windows machine lacks features and components that the Mac has. I guarantee it. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 18:14, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Old link, but still pertinent: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10442_7-6511774-10.html?tag=rb_content;rb _mtx And that Acer was significantly cheaper than the Apple product. I don't have time for this (I have to go to work), but just glancing at these two pages: http://reviews.cnet.com/laptops/acer-travelmate-8200/4507-3121_7- 31679411.html http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/specs-13inch.html ...shows that the Mac is only 2/3s the weight of the Acer. The Mac supports 802.11n WiFi, and the Acer doesn't (if you can get it to work, that's double or quadruple the bandwidth). The Mac has a larger memory cache, though the type is different (L3 vs. L2 for the Acer), and it is described as shared memory. Not sure what this means, but the Mac one is larger, and that is generally a performance booster. Mac has a Firewire port, Acer does not (this is a big deal, in my opinion, as Firewire is a lot faster and more reliable than USB for external drives). The base hard drive of the Mac is 320GBs, while for the Acer it's only 120GBs. The Mac has a digital video port (though I don't know if the standard is a widely used one), the Acer doesn't. The Acer's maximum screen resolution is higher, though (1680 x 1050 vs. 1280 by 800). That's all I have time for right now... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On May 24, 2011, at 8:17 AM, David W. Fenton wrote: But that's no different from a Mac (for which you don't have the choice of building your own, BTW). FYI, here is one of my long time favorite Mac stores, and their build your own page. http://www.powermax.com/bto/ best, timothy.price timothy.pr...@valley.net ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Actually, what is meant is that you can simply take the hard drive out of one Mac, say an iMac, and have use it on a macpro. It boots up just fine. Windows can't do that as far as I know. So the system disk on my 2006 iMac, which has smart music registered on it, I can take home and boot my macpro off that drive and it just works. Though most people would probably use the great migration tool apple has where you simply connect a FireWire cable between two macs and it will copy all your apps, docs, and settings to a new Mac Sent from my iSomething On May 24, 2011, at 5:18 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 23 May 2011 at 14:57, Eric Dannewitz wrote: You do know that windows generally needs to be reinstalled if you switch hardware. I don't know what this is intended to mean. It doesn't sound correct at all. If you get a new PC, yes, you'll have a new copy of Windows (pre- installed). If you build your own PC, you'll have to install Windows. But that's no different from a Mac (for which you don't have the choice of building your own, BTW). The implication of the above is that adding hardware to a PC requires re-installing Windows, and this is not now nor has it ever been correct. Care to clarify what you actually meant? -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:15 AM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: Prove it! I am certain that if I compared your $300 PC laptop to the cheapest Mac laptop, your cheapo PC will come up way short on important features/components. Those may not matter to you (i.e., you may not need those features), but that's not the point -- the point is that if you configure a PC comparably to a Mac model it costs the same or more. Let's see: my CHEAP computer (you say that like it's an insult, but whatevah) Intel Pentium T4500 Dual Core processor 3GB DDR3 system memory 2.30GHz, 800MHz Front Side Bus, 1MB L2 Cache * 250GB SATA hard drive SuperMulti DVD burner Built in HD Webcam Software included: Windows 7, Cyberlink PowerDVD, NTI Media Maker, Microsoft Office Student Edition, and Back-Up manager software Built in multi-card reader * 10/100 Ethernet; 802.11b/g/n Wi-Fi 15.6 diagonal HD CineCrystal LCD widescreen display Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 4500M with up to 1695MB of Intel Dynamic Video Memory Technology 5.0 Cheapest Mac: 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo processor with 3MB on-chip shared L2 cache 1066MHz frontside bus 2GB (two 1GB SO-DIMMs AirPort Extreme 802.11n Wi-Fi wireless networking;2 IEEE 802.11a/b/g compatible 13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display with support for millions of colors 250GB 5400-rpm Serial ATA hard disk drive; optional 320GB or 500GB 5400-rpm drive4 8x slot-loading SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW) 300.00 versus 999.00 The Mac is slightly lighter, has a harder polycarbonate plastic case. Big deal. Not worth spending the 600 dollars I saved, because I'm not in the habit of throwing my property around. And I'm not swayed by any the bundled software included on the Mac, I don't use that on Windows either. After all, I don't buy computers for software, I buy them for, well computers! Fancy that! So here, have your slice of crow pie too. Or you going to nitpick this to death and tell me why the features I think are not important are really not important? Being the betting man that I am, I'm willing to predict yes. That does not mean that some people won't find the cheapo PC fine for their needs. It only means that the conventional wisdom about Macs being more expensive is WRONG. Not really, I've seen some of the articles about that, and most of the comparisons are crap. Ya know Apples and Oranges ? *Wink wink wink* I think it depends on a case by case situation. Thanks ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
At 9:31 PM -0700 5/23/11, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Man, you are a moron huh? Children, children, let's just chill out, OK? No one is going to change anyone's mind about platforms or peripherals or software unless they are ready and willing to change their minds, so how about scaling back the hot rhetoric and getting back to questions and suggestions that can actually help someone out. I can't remember (and don't really care) who started the discussion (or perhaps better, the hissy fit!), but it might have been more helpful to identify what kind of equipment that person was already used to instead of leaving it wide open. COOL IT!!! John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Get an iMac. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Lee Dengler wrote: Hi All, I need to purchase a new desktop computer. I am running Finale 2010 Windows at the present and will likely upgrade to 2012 when it comes out. I engrave full orchestrations and want to be able to play any and all of the sounds. I also want something that I will not outgrow in a few years. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Lee Dengler leedeng...@comcast.net Lee Dengler Consulting Editor, Jubilate Music Director, Goshen Community Chorale Minister of Music, College Mennonite Church Composer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
I need to purchase a new desktop computer. I am running Finale 2010 Windows at the present and will likely upgrade to 2012 when it comes out. I engrave full orchestrations and want to be able to play any and all of the sounds. I also want something that I will not outgrow in a few years. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Deal News has wonderful daily listings for specials that they find via the Internet. Some are amazing. I got a top notch laptop via their website for 300.00. I highly suggest you get a RSS feed / alerts to their desktop specials . Good luck, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
That's what I think too. I have a 27 iMac, and it is satisfying and trouble free. A little extra RAM can help. (Full disclosure - I've always used Macs and have little experience with Windows. Still, I am confident in giving this recommendation.) Chuck On May 23, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Get an iMac. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Lee Dengler wrote: Hi All, I need to purchase a new desktop computer. I am running Finale 2010 Windows at the present and will likely upgrade to 2012 when it comes out. I engrave full orchestrations and want to be able to play any and all of the sounds. I also want something that I will not outgrow in a few years. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Lee Dengler leedeng...@comcast.net Lee Dengler Consulting Editor, Jubilate Music Director, Goshen Community Chorale Minister of Music, College Mennonite Church Composer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Though I don't see how a $300 laptop is going to be able to grow for a few years. Nor how it will handle playing back good quality sounds (NOT the Finale Software synth sounds, but more like the Garritan sounds) I'd still say some sort of Mac. iMac for desktop, or a laptop. Plus they can drive additional monitors with the addition of a simple plug, and the high end iMac can drive two additional monitors. Even my 2006 iMac can drive an additional monitor. And you also don't have to worry about viruses, windows registry problems, driver issues, or any of the other headaches you get with a PC. Plus, you get Time Machine, which is absolutely amazingly easy to use. I've saved my self several times by having it on. Like if I made a change to a score or a file and then wanted to go back to the old version. Boom, it's there. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: Deal News has wonderful daily listings for specials that they find via the Internet. Some are amazing. I got a top notch laptop via their website for 300.00. I highly suggest you get a RSS feed / alerts to their desktop specials . Good luck, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net wrote: That's what I think too. I have a 27 iMac, and it is satisfying and trouble free. A little extra RAM can help. (Full disclosure - I've always used Macs and have little experience with Windows. Still, I am confident in giving this recommendation.) Chuck I have a HP Pavillion 19 inch laptop and it's fantastic. And a lot cheaper than a Mac, and it has a Blu Ray DVD reader burner. Fast as hell, with a huge hard drive tons of RAM. HP is great with driver updates and diagnostics and their customer service support is fantastic (I had an issue with a DVD that was quickly solved by remote assistance from HP). Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Though I don't see how a $300 laptop is going to be able to grow for a few years. Nor how it will handle playing back good quality sounds (NOT the Finale Software synth sounds, but more like the Garritan sounds) I'd still say some sort of Mac. iMac for desktop, or a laptop. Plus they can drive additional monitors with the addition of a simple plug, and the high end iMac can drive two additional monitors. Even my 2006 iMac can drive an additional monitor. And you also don't have to worry about viruses, windows registry problems, driver issues, or any of the other headaches you get with a PC. Plus, you get Time Machine, which is absolutely amazingly easy to use. I've saved my self several times by having it on. Like if I made a change to a score or a file and then wanted to go back to the old version. Boom, it's there. My point wasn't that he should buy a 300 dollar laptop, it was instead the nature of great deals on the website. They list many deals for a variety of computer products and types, not just laptops. But even so, for the price of a top end Apple iMac, you could have purchased several laptops over the course of a few years. Thanks, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
There is a lot to consider here. Bigger screen doesn't mean better. You want a good, high resolution screen. Not just a bigger screen. It could be 19 but with a crappy display resolution. Blu Ray DVD? So now we are looking at entertainment machines? I don't think you'd have an actual BluRay burner, because those are still around $200. It's probably a BluRay reader and a DVD/CD Burner. But that really doesn't matter. I can't think of the last time I had to actually burn something. Everything is done with via the Net, like using DropBox to send PDFs to clients, or song mixes or whatever. Never ever had an issue with Apple stuff, and if I did, I'd simply take it to an Apple Store and have them look at it. Applecare is great (I hear). And 19 on a Laptop.I know we Americans are getting fat but that is like.huge. How practical is that? Like what 20lbs of laptop? Oh, also, I don't see HP ever making a 19 laptop..the biggest one of that line Google says they make is 17 -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I have a HP Pavillion 19 inch laptop and it's fantastic. And a lot cheaper than a Mac, and it has a Blu Ray DVD reader burner. Fast as hell, with a huge hard drive tons of RAM. HP is great with driver updates and diagnostics and their customer service support is fantastic (I had an issue with a DVD that was quickly solved by remote assistance from HP). Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
But that's no a real good point. You then have several boat anchors (ie old hardware) around, plus you have all the migration problems of getting your old files and software to new machines. So if I spend $999 to get a MacBook, I could have gotten 2 1/2 $300 special windows computers? That is several? Are you expecting them to die every other year. I see that they only offer 1 year warranty on them. For like another $100 I can bump Applecare up to 3 years. Yikes...no thanks. I don't want a machine crapping out on me ever two years or so. Do you think the same way with cars? Houses? Instruments? -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 1:01 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: My point wasn't that he should buy a 300 dollar laptop, it was instead the nature of great deals on the website. They list many deals for a variety of computer products and types, not just laptops. But even so, for the price of a top end Apple iMac, you could have purchased several laptops over the course of a few years. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 15:29, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: I got a top notch laptop via their website for 300.00. It may have been a really good value, but it wasn't a top-notch laptop. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 14:44, Lee Dengler wrote: Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. It's difficult to recommend brands any more as so many of the top nameplates just don't have good quality any longer. I still recommend Dell desktops to my clients and haven't had any significant problems with any of them (with rare exceptions). For a 5-year Windows machine (i.e., will not need significant upgrades for that period of time), you'll pay in the range of $1500 up. These are my recommendations: 1. Windows 7 64-bit 2. 8GBs of RAM 3. mirrored RAID 1 high-speed hard drives (i.e., a pair of hard drives where 1 mirrors the other -- it increases performances since the controller can read from either drive, but also if one fails, the other one is still OK). 4. high-end video, though not the most expensive possible. 5. the largest monitor you can afford, or better, two reasonably large monitors. In general, the bottom half of Dell's product line can't be configured with this spec, only the Dell Dimension and Optiplex lines of standard desktops work for this. That's because the lower-priced lines are CHEAP and not expandable, and simply don't support the newer components with the highest performance. I would love to be able to buy a desktop with the OS on a solid-state drive and use the RAID 1 array for data only, but that doesn't exist yet except on the gaming machines (which are way too expensive, in my opinion). Don't skimp on either RAM, hard drive speed or video speed/RAM. All of those things have a huge impact on performance and when you trim from the specs for each of those components, you lose a huge amount in performance. That's why one of these $1500 desktops will vastly outperform any machine half its price. You can probably save money on the RAM if you buy the machine with 2GBs (single DIMM) and then upgrade it to 8GBs from Crucial.com, but I have never considered that worth the effort when buying a new machine. But it's worth comparing the price from Crucial with what you'd pay from the vendor. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: There is a lot to consider here. Bigger screen doesn't mean better. You want a good, high resolution screen. Not just a bigger screen. It could be 19 but with a crappy display resolution. Blu Ray DVD? So now we are looking at entertainment machines? I don't think you'd have an actual BluRay burner, because those are still around $200. It's probably a BluRay reader and a DVD/CD Burner. But that really doesn't matter. I can't think of the last time I had to actually burn something. Everything is done with via the Net, like using DropBox to send PDFs to clients, or song mixes or whatever. Never ever had an issue with Apple stuff, and if I did, I'd simply take it to an Apple Store and have them look at it. Applecare is great (I hear). And 19 on a Laptop.I know we Americans are getting fat but that is like.huge. How practical is that? Like what 20lbs of laptop? Oh, also, I don't see HP ever making a 19 laptop..the biggest one of that line Google says they make is 17 Sorry -- typo-- it's 17 inch. You're getting bogged down in a lot of useless back-and-forth about this and that when the bottom line is : you can find products with more features at a cheaper price than most Apple products. You had a good experience: great! I highly recommend Deal News for any computer specials. Thanks, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On 23 May 2011 at 13:53, Eric Dannewitz wrote: But that's no a real good point. You then have several boat anchors (ie old hardware) around, plus you have all the migration problems of getting your old files and software to new machines. Eric and I hardly ever agree on anything at all, but on this one, I'm with him 100%. The fact is, the Apple hardware is more expensive canard is a COMPLETE MYTH, and it has been for well over a decade. The reason it persists is because Apple doesn't sell low-end products. It configures all of its products so that they perform well. This means that there is nothing comparable to the $300 PCs in Apple's product line. But you're not getting the same thing for $300 that you would if you pad $800 for a Mac -- if you configured a Windows PC with comparable specifications as the $800 Mac, it will cost about $800, too (and in many cases, it will cost MORE). Secondly, the point about changing machines often is one that too many people vastly underrate. You're much better off spending $1500 every 6 years than you are spending $300 three times during the same time period. You may think you're sayving a huge amount of money, but instead, you're getting a poorly performing machine that was way back in the pack performance-wise when you bought it (and likely last year's model, anyway), and it will be wheezing under the requirements placed on it in a couple of years. You can get a 5-year PC for $1000 if you have modest computing needs, but for $1500, you can get a machine that will long outlast 5 years (I have clients retiring 8-year-old machines, for instance). The price point used to be $2000, but it's come down to $1500 in the last few years. But anybody who says Macs are more expensive than PCs hasn't ever actually sat down and tried to do a real 1:1 comparison between a Mac and a PC configured with the same peripherals, RAM, etc. When you do that, you find out that Macs are actually quite a good value. And you learn to stay away from the low-end PC junk. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: But that's no a real good point. You then have several boat anchors (ie old hardware) around, plus you have all the migration problems of getting your old files and software to new machines. Yeah, that's incredibly hard work! Most Finale users seem to buy the software upgrades and new releases anyway. So if I spend $999 to get a MacBook, I could have gotten 2 1/2 $300 special windows computers? That is several? Are you expecting them to die every other year. I see that they only offer 1 year warranty on them. For like another $100 I can bump Applecare up to 3 years. Right, so Apple's limited warranty isn't any better than a standard PC, and like them-- you can buy an extended warranty. But that's swell of Apple to offer limited warranties on their products. And the point for many people is bang for their buck and dollars when it comes to laptops or computers: you get can buy faster motherboards at a cheaper price with a platform that's not nearly as restrictive as what will be with Apple's Lion OS that's being touted: it even more restrictive with less choices available. Yikes...no thanks. I don't want a machine crapping out on me ever two years or so. Do you think the same way with cars? Houses? Instruments?? That's nice. Thanks, Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
iBut you're not getting the same thing for $300 that you would if you pad $800 for a Mac -- if you configured a Windows PC with comparable specifications as the $800 Mac, it will cost about $800, too (and in many cases, it will cost MORE)./i Not in this case, really. I'm way ahead of you on this one. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 2:10 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Right, so Apple's limited warranty isn't any better than a standard PC, and like them-- you can buy an extended warranty. But that's swell of Apple to offer limited warranties on their products. And the point for many people is bang for their buck and dollars when it comes to laptops or computers: you get can buy faster motherboards at a cheaper price with a platform that's not nearly as restrictive as what will be with Apple's Lion OS that's being touted: it even more restrictive with less choices available. Apple is consistently rated like #1 in its products and stores You do know that windows generally needs to be reinstalled if you switch hardware. And what fantasy world did you pull this BS about lion being more restrictive? I think 10.7 (Lion) will work across all mac nade within the last 4 years Yikes...no thanks. I don't want a machine crapping out on me ever two years or so. Do you think the same way with cars? Houses? Instruments?? That's nice. Guess you do. Hope the Yugo doesn't fly apart on the freeway... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
If not RAID 1 (mirroring for those who don't know what it is), then at least an external drive to backup Daily to and/or a subscription to something like crashplan. In this digital age you really can't afford to NOT to have a backup plan. Though RAID1 won't keep you safe from accidental deletion or filesystem corruption (which is rare nowadays) Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 2:04 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 23 May 2011 at 14:44, Lee Dengler wrote: Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. It's difficult to recommend brands any more as so many of the top nameplates just don't have good quality any longer. I still recommend Dell desktops to my clients and haven't had any significant problems with any of them (with rare exceptions). For a 5-year Windows machine (i.e., will not need significant upgrades for that period of time), you'll pay in the range of $1500 up. These are my recommendations: 1. Windows 7 64-bit 2. 8GBs of RAM 3. mirrored RAID 1 high-speed hard drives (i.e., a pair of hard drives where 1 mirrors the other -- it increases performances since the controller can read from either drive, but also if one fails, the other one is still OK). 4. high-end video, though not the most expensive possible. 5. the largest monitor you can afford, or better, two reasonably large monitors. In general, the bottom half of Dell's product line can't be configured with this spec, only the Dell Dimension and Optiplex lines of standard desktops work for this. That's because the lower-priced lines are CHEAP and not expandable, and simply don't support the newer components with the highest performance. I would love to be able to buy a desktop with the OS on a solid-state drive and use the RAID 1 array for data only, but that doesn't exist yet except on the gaming machines (which are way too expensive, in my opinion). Don't skimp on either RAM, hard drive speed or video speed/RAM. All of those things have a huge impact on performance and when you trim from the specs for each of those components, you lose a huge amount in performance. That's why one of these $1500 desktops will vastly outperform any machine half its price. You can probably save money on the RAM if you buy the machine with 2GBs (single DIMM) and then upgrade it to 8GBs from Crucial.com, but I have never considered that worth the effort when buying a new machine. But it's worth comparing the price from Crucial with what you'd pay from the vendor. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Whatever he is eating/smoking I want some. I haven't seen anything remotely close to what you'd get with a stock MacBook. Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 2:18 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: iBut you're not getting the same thing for $300 that you would if you pad $800 for a Mac -- if you configured a Windows PC with comparable specifications as the $800 Mac, it will cost about $800, too (and in many cases, it will cost MORE)./i Not in this case, really. I'm way ahead of you on this one. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 2:10 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Right, so Apple's limited warranty isn't any better than a standard PC, and like them-- you can buy an extended warranty. But that's swell of Apple to offer limited warranties on their products. And the point for many people is bang for their buck and dollars when it comes to laptops or computers: you get can buy faster motherboards at a cheaper price with a platform that's not nearly as restrictive as what will be with Apple's Lion OS that's being touted: it even more restrictive with less choices available. Apple is consistently rated like #1 in its products and stores So your point about Apple's limited warranty and offering extended coverage isn't any better than PC has no bearing on anything? Ok, great. Moving on. And there are plenty of Consumer Reports Recommended Buys for PC etc, and cheaper. As for their products, do you want to throw in the Android format versus the iPhone and the numerous issues with its phones (Consumer Reports can fill you in on that). You do know that windows generally needs to be reinstalled if you switch hardware. So what? A lot of the software is pre-installed anyway, and that's not a factor in buying an Apple product? I've known Apple users that had to reinstall applications after a major Apple upgrade. If we limit this to just installing Finale, I mentioned earlier many on the list appear to install upgrades or fixes anyways. *Shrug* And what fantasy world did you pull this BS about lion being more restrictive? I think 10.7 (Lion) will work across all mac nade within the last 4 years You missed my point: Apple is going to a more restrictive model for what software it will offer to sell on its Apps store: that means even less software will be available in the future. I live in the fantasy world where I can buy a computer that's cheaper, runs more software and doesn't box me in. Thanks! Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Whatever he is eating/smoking I want some. I haven't seen anything remotely close to what you'd get with a stock MacBook. Old link, but still pertinent: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10442_7-6511774-10.html?tag=rb_content;rb_mtx And that Acer was significantly cheaper than the Apple product. Here, have some Crow Pie. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Wow.hell has frozen over ;-) You speak the truth sir. Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 2:08 PM, David W. Fenton lists.fin...@dfenton.com wrote: On 23 May 2011 at 13:53, Eric Dannewitz wrote: But that's no a real good point. You then have several boat anchors (ie old hardware) around, plus you have all the migration problems of getting your old files and software to new machines. Eric and I hardly ever agree on anything at all, but on this one, I'm with him 100%. The fact is, the Apple hardware is more expensive canard is a COMPLETE MYTH, and it has been for well over a decade. The reason it persists is because Apple doesn't sell low-end products. It configures all of its products so that they perform well. This means that there is nothing comparable to the $300 PCs in Apple's product line. But you're not getting the same thing for $300 that you would if you pad $800 for a Mac -- if you configured a Windows PC with comparable specifications as the $800 Mac, it will cost about $800, too (and in many cases, it will cost MORE). Secondly, the point about changing machines often is one that too many people vastly underrate. You're much better off spending $1500 every 6 years than you are spending $300 three times during the same time period. You may think you're sayving a huge amount of money, but instead, you're getting a poorly performing machine that was way back in the pack performance-wise when you bought it (and likely last year's model, anyway), and it will be wheezing under the requirements placed on it in a couple of years. You can get a 5-year PC for $1000 if you have modest computing needs, but for $1500, you can get a machine that will long outlast 5 years (I have clients retiring 8-year-old machines, for instance). The price point used to be $2000, but it's come down to $1500 in the last few years. But anybody who says Macs are more expensive than PCs hasn't ever actually sat down and tried to do a real 1:1 comparison between a Mac and a PC configured with the same peripherals, RAM, etc. When you do that, you find out that Macs are actually quite a good value. And you learn to stay away from the low-end PC junk. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Me too. I have a 27 iMac with a 2nd 24 monitor attached in portrait mode. Worth every cent. Screen real estate is gold and improves productivity substantially. I have a laptop at work and it's almost painful in comparison. Matthew Sent from my iPhone On 24/05/2011, at 5:22 AM, Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net wrote: That's what I think too. I have a 27 iMac, and it is satisfying and trouble free. A little extra RAM can help. (Full disclosure - I've always used Macs and have little experience with Windows. Still, I am confident in giving this recommendation.) Chuck On May 23, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Get an iMac. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Lee Dengler wrote: Hi All, I need to purchase a new desktop computer. I am running Finale 2010 Windows at the present and will likely upgrade to 2012 when it comes out. I engrave full orchestrations and want to be able to play any and all of the sounds. I also want something that I will not outgrow in a few years. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Lee Dengler leedeng...@comcast.net Lee Dengler Consulting Editor, Jubilate Music Director, Goshen Community Chorale Minister of Music, College Mennonite Church Composer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
What, not having any clown pie? The iMacs display is really really nice for finale... Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Matthew Hindson Gma mhindson2...@gmail.com wrote: Me too. I have a 27 iMac with a 2nd 24 monitor attached in portrait mode. Worth every cent. Screen real estate is gold and improves productivity substantially. I have a laptop at work and it's almost painful in comparison. Matthew Sent from my iPhone On 24/05/2011, at 5:22 AM, Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net wrote: That's what I think too. I have a 27 iMac, and it is satisfying and trouble free. A little extra RAM can help. (Full disclosure - I've always used Macs and have little experience with Windows. Still, I am confident in giving this recommendation.) Chuck On May 23, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Get an iMac. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Lee Dengler wrote: Hi All, I need to purchase a new desktop computer. I am running Finale 2010 Windows at the present and will likely upgrade to 2012 when it comes out. I engrave full orchestrations and want to be able to play any and all of the sounds. I also want something that I will not outgrow in a few years. Any suggestions would greatly appreciated. Lee Dengler leedeng...@comcast.net Lee Dengler Consulting Editor, Jubilate Music Director, Goshen Community Chorale Minister of Music, College Mennonite Church Composer ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sure it's not clown pie? That link is really old.they mention PowerBooks? And that's the only one you can reference? Hardly convincing Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 3:30 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Whatever he is eating/smoking I want some. I haven't seen anything remotely close to what you'd get with a stock MacBook. Old link, but still pertinent: http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10442_7-6511774-10.html?tag=rb_content;rb_mtx And that Acer was significantly cheaper than the Apple product. Here, have some Crow Pie. Thanks Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: So your point about Apple's limited warranty and offering extended coverage isn't any better than PC has no bearing on anything? Ok, great. Moving on. What? I'm saying that apple is rated at or damn near the top. Meaning the quality is top noch and when something does break, apple generally makes it good with AppleCare. There are lots or reports of people getting whole new computers from applelike people who had problems with the liquid cooled g5 towers... And there are plenty of Consumer Reports Recommended Buys for PC etc, and cheaper. As for their products, do you want to throw in the Android format versus the iPhone and the numerous issues with its phones (Consumer Reports can fill you in on that). Ah, consumer reports. Really an unbiased and trustworthy source aren't they? And I think there are PLENTY if YouTube videos showing the exact same problems with droids (ie death grip) So what? A lot of the software is pre-installed anyway, and that's not a factor in buying an Apple product? I've known Apple users that had to reinstall applications after a major Apple upgrade. If we limit this to just installing Finale, I mentioned earlier many on the list appear to install upgrades or fixes anyways. *Shrug* So when you decide to upgrade your pcs motherboard, you have to reinstall everythingincluding windows. Meaning you need to contact Microsoft to get them to move the license to a new machine. And finale. And everything else. So.hardly a great upgrade path You missed my point: Apple is going to a more restrictive model for what software it will offer to sell on its Apps store: that means even less software will be available in the future. This is pure FUD. There is nothing to suggest that apple is going to ban non-apple store software. They simply provide the option to uses and developers. Clown pie is good huh? I live in the fantasy world where I can buy a computer that's cheaper, runs more software and doesn't box me in. Ah, the Crux of the matter. The 1990s reasoning that more software is better. But weren't we limiting it to finale? No? And you are boxed in with windows. Are you going 64 bit or 32? Ultimate or the lesser versions? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Sure it's not clown pie? That link is really old.they mention PowerBooks? But it's more recent than any of your links, Oh wait, you haven't provided anything other than your personal stories, and that great extended Apple warranty. Here, have a fork for your pie. Thanks, KIm ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Really? You can't use Google? Or check CNet? Check Amazon (3 of the top 5 are Apple Laptops, 5 of the top 10 are iMacs)? Or even check Consumer Reports? The evidence is out there.plain as day. They make excellent hardware. #1-3 in Desktops on Amazon are held by Apple products. Point Game Match.. I don't need a fork for the Clown Pie.it just makes a strange honking noise.. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: But it's more recent than any of your links, Oh wait, you haven't provided anything other than your personal stories, and that great extended Apple warranty. Here, have a fork for your pie. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Really? You can't use Google? Or check CNet? Check Amazon (3 of the top 5 are Apple Laptops, 5 of the top 10 are iMacs)? Or even check Consumer Reports? The evidence is out there.plain as day. They make excellent hardware. #1-3 in Desktops on Amazon are held by Apple products. That's right, and those same sources say the same about cheaper PCs: they're all excellent. Bill O'Reilly's books are high ranking on Amazon too, so that's not impressive by any measure -- never mind overall Apple is still around 10 percent for desktops and laptops. Z.Apple has and will remain a niche product for its fans. Point Game Match.. Sorry but Macs suck for games, you should get a PC!!! :-) I don't need a fork for the Clown Pie.it just makes a strange honking noise.. Really? That sounds like some more personal experiences! Thanks! Kim ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Actually, no. But Clow(n) land seems to be really holding you tight. Look, the fact is that a cheap laptop isn't going to hack it. Even David Fenton agrees. And just bashing Apple products just shows ignorance on your part. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: That's right, and those same sources say the same about cheaper PCs: they're all excellent. Bill O'Reilly's books are high ranking on Amazon too, so that's not impressive by any measure -- never mind overall Apple is still around 10 percent for desktops and laptops. Z.Apple has and will remain a niche product for its fans. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Actually, no. But Clow(n) land seems to be really holding you tight. Not so tight as things apparently over in Eric Dumbshitz land. Look, the fact is that a cheap laptop isn't going to hack it. Even David Fenton agrees. And just bashing Apple products just shows ignorance on your part. Cry moar! Here have a hanky. http://204.45.110.156/bin/052010/1272964790_glenn-beck-crying.gif ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
The last thing I wanted to do was to start a platform war. Macs are better for me (in my limited experience) and worth the money - for me. PCs seem to be less expensive, and I know they work. I find them slightly more obtuse and I am clumsier when using them, but that may be lack of experience. (I don't know Sibelius and find it difficult, but new users find it easier to learn than Finale, so I have to accept the fact that my judgments are personal.) That's all I know, and from my point of view, I like Macs and am quite satisfied with the 27 iMac. I used to have a Mac Pro and a 30 Cinema display (that I liked), but the Mac Pro was overkill, big, and slightly noisy. The iMac is essentially silent, and if I need to do a lot of work on orchestral scores, I can always ad a monitor in portrait mode. Chuck On May 23, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Really? You can't use Google? Or check CNet? Check Amazon (3 of the top 5 are Apple Laptops, 5 of the top 10 are iMacs)? Or even check Consumer Reports? The evidence is out there.plain as day. They make excellent hardware. #1-3 in Desktops on Amazon are held by Apple products. Point Game Match.. I don't need a fork for the Clown Pie.it just makes a strange honking noise.. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: But it's more recent than any of your links, Oh wait, you haven't provided anything other than your personal stories, and that great extended Apple warranty. Here, have a fork for your pie. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Man, you are a moron huh? I mean, you are using Glenn beck and Bill O'Reilly? What purpose does bringing these people into this discussion? Whatever. I think anyone that reads your posts will see them for what they are.ill-informed. Apple makes great products, and if one is looking for a new system they should spend money on it. Windows systems as well, lots of ram, etc. NOT the $300 special Mr. Clown is suggesting.I mean, he knows all about stuff. He's on that Internet thing with the tubes. And can readily link to images of Glenn beck Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 11:11 PM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Actually, no. But Clow(n) land seems to be really holding you tight. Not so tight as things apparently over in Eric Dumbshitz land. Look, the fact is that a cheap laptop isn't going to hack it. Even David Fenton agrees. And just bashing Apple products just shows ignorance on your part. Cry moar! Here have a hanky. http://204.45.110.156/bin/052010/1272964790_glenn-beck-crying.gif ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Oh, but you spent lots of money on a niche product. You could have bought 2 or more $300 laptops that could do all what you want. The iMac is really nice. The displays are nice. And it is nearly silent. A 27 iMac and a 30 external monitor would be amazing. Have you done that? How would you arrange the score with two huge displays? I my macpro is pretty quite, and I have yet to max out the processors on it. I've mixed two jazz band albums using ProTools with it, and I don't think I even got anywhere close to 1/2 of the processing power even with all the plugins I was using. And this is a 2008 model. Though think of all the $300 laptops I could have bought! For finale stuff, I have no clue how much power it uses. A big band score with the garritan sounds works fine. The only time thing I ever had the computer choke on was lots of VIs in digital performer. Basically ran out of memory. Increasing the Mac to 8 gigs solved that. But I'm using a niche product.should have gotten a $300 laptop. It could do all that and then some. I could be on my second or third on by now. Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 9:08 PM, Chuck Israels cisra...@comcast.net wrote: The last thing I wanted to do was to start a platform war. Macs are better for me (in my limited experience) and worth the money - for me. PCs seem to be less expensive, and I know they work. I find them slightly more obtuse and I am clumsier when using them, but that may be lack of experience. (I don't know Sibelius and find it difficult, but new users find it easier to learn than Finale, so I have to accept the fact that my judgments are personal.) That's all I know, and from my point of view, I like Macs and am quite satisfied with the 27 iMac. I used to have a Mac Pro and a 30 Cinema display (that I liked), but the Mac Pro was overkill, big, and slightly noisy. The iMac is essentially silent, and if I need to do a lot of work on orchestral scores, I can always ad a monitor in portrait mode. Chuck On May 23, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Eric Dannewitz wrote: Really? You can't use Google? Or check CNet? Check Amazon (3 of the top 5 are Apple Laptops, 5 of the top 10 are iMacs)? Or even check Consumer Reports? The evidence is out there.plain as day. They make excellent hardware. #1-3 in Desktops on Amazon are held by Apple products. Point Game Match.. I don't need a fork for the Clown Pie.it just makes a strange honking noise.. -- Eric Dannewitz Musician/Polymath On Monday, May 23, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Kim Patrick Clow wrote: But it's more recent than any of your links, Oh wait, you haven't provided anything other than your personal stories, and that great extended Apple warranty. Here, have a fork for your pie. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 1310 NW Naito Parkway #807 Portland, OR 97209-3162 phone: (503) 926-7952 cell phone: (360) 201-3434 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 12:31 AM, Eric ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Man, you are a moron huh? I mean, you are using Glenn beck and Bill O'Reilly? What purpose does bringing these people into this discussion? Are you? I mean, it's one thing to have a debate about a platform and your personal preferences, but if you wanted to raise the ante by insulting someone, I can ramp it up too. You brought up sales figures on Amazon as some sort of justification of well if it sells on Amazon, that means I'm right. Did you miss the part where I pointed out Apple is about 10 percent of the market, and they have and remain a niche area in the market? Whatever. I think anyone that reads your posts will see them for what they are.ill-informed. Apple makes great products, and if one is looking for a new system they should spend money on it. Windows systems as well, lots of ram, etc. NOT the $300 special Mr. Clown is suggesting.I mean, he knows all about stuff. He's on that Internet thing with the tubes. And can readily link to images of Glenn beck I'm sorry Mr Dipshitz' butthurt is showing because someone doesn't worship at the altar of Steve Job or suggests an alternative you don't like. And your continued bringing up the 300 dollar laptop is pretty lulz- worthy too. I mentioned that as a purchase at Deal News.com as an example of a great deal I found there, and I specifically mentioned they list great specials on any platform or vendor. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 12:43 AM, Eric Dannewitz ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Oh, but you spent lots of money on a niche product. You could have bought 2 or more $300 laptops that could do all what you want. The iMac is really nice. The displays are nice. And it is nearly silent. A 27 iMac and a 30 external monitor would be amazing. Have you done that? How would you arrange the score with two huge displays? I my macpro is pretty quite, and I have yet to max out the processors on it. I've mixed two jazz band albums using ProTools with it, and I don't think I even got anywhere close to 1/2 of the processing power even with all the plugins I was using. And this is a 2008 model. Though think of all the $300 laptops I could have bought! For finale stuff, I have no clue how much power it uses. A big band score with the garritan sounds works fine. The only time thing I ever had the computer choke on was lots of VIs in digital performer. Basically ran out of memory. Increasing the Mac to 8 gigs solved that. But I'm using a niche product.should have gotten a $300 laptop. It could do all that and then some. I could be on my second or third on by now. Aw more butthurt: LOL @ 950.00 27 inch monitor compared to HP's 27 version for only 320 @ the aforementioned Amazon, clearly someone is dedicated to their product, no matter the price! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
Huh? Who? You aren't making sense..what are you talking about? Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 10:34 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: Aw more butthurt: LOL @ 950.00 27 inch monitor compared to HP's 27 version for only 320 @ the aforementioned Amazon, clearly someone is dedicated to their product, no matter the price! ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] New desktop computer suggestions?
I think it's funny when old people get upset. You are like what, 60, and you are using childish references, Glenn beck pictures, and O'Reily references that maybe two other people get? And ass references? Really? Sales figures matter. Why would Apple be in the tops there if they didn't make good products? And 10% of the market is not a true figure. That is figuring in work machines. I believe allthingsd did a study last year saying the numbers of home machines another matter. That is what amazon is showing. What real people buy. Not the imaginary 10% number you are fixating onmaybe anally as you seem to be in that area now for whatever reason. Of course you think apple has problems with it's phones but again, the sales numbers don't show that at all..but doesn't really matter for a myopic such as yourself. didn't they sell something like 18 million of those phones last quarter? I never say NOT to get windows. Just don't get the $300 machine. Its clown-ish. Again, even D. Fenton agrees that it is stupid. Sent from my iSomething On May 23, 2011, at 10:23 PM, Kim Patrick Clow telem...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 12:31 AM, Eric ericd...@jazz-sax.com wrote: Are you? I mean, it's one thing to have a debate about a platform and your personal preferences, but if you wanted to raise the ante by insulting someone, I can ramp it up too. You brought up sales figures on Amazon as some sort of justification of well if it sells on Amazon, that means I'm right. Did you miss the part where I pointed out Apple is about 10 percent of the market, and they have and remain a niche area in the market? I'm sorry Mr Dipshitz' butthurt is showing because someone doesn't worship at the altar of Steve Job or suggests an alternative you don't like. And your continued bringing up the 300 dollar laptop is pretty lulz- worthy too. I mentioned that as a purchase at Deal News.com as an example of a great deal I found there, and I specifically mentioned they list great specials on any platform or vendor. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
