[Fink-devel] Killing python26
We've been dragging python26 along for years, since back when it was the latest thing. It's not. Python27 has been available in fink for many years, and even in the past several OS X versions. Upstream says "Python itself has jumped to the 3.x series in 2008, with some major changes that may make upgrading non-trivial in some cases, so it makes sense to keep "some" python2.x in fink (OS X still has python27 and maybe older also). Upstream plans to keep 27 in maintenance mode for at least a while longer but gave up on even security patches for 26 as I understand it. As of yesterday, the only dependencies on python26 are the -py26 suite of modules--there does not appear to be anything outside of this self-contained tree. Is it time to chop down that tree? There are no -py26 modules that do not have a parallel -py27 variant. Ordinarily, I'd not object to keeping ancient versions of things around and just stop bringing them forward when we roll the next Distribution, but python26 is also the only package still using db48, another ancient version. I'd love to stop having to support ancient versions of things that are not even getting security-support upstream altogether. dan -- Daniel Macks dma...@netspace.org -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
I vote take out the axe, your python version options are getting out of hand honestly. --- TS http://www.southofheaven.org/ Life begins and ends with chaos, live between the chaos! On Mar 20, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Daniel Macks wrote: > We've been dragging python26 along for years, since back when it was the > latest thing. It's not. Python27 has been available in fink for many years, > and even in the past several OS X versions. Upstream says "Python itself has > jumped to the 3.x series in 2008, with some major changes that may make > upgrading non-trivial in some cases, so it makes sense to keep "some" > python2.x in fink (OS X still has python27 and maybe older also). Upstream > plans to keep 27 in maintenance mode for at least a while longer but gave up > on even security patches for 26 as I understand it. > > As of yesterday, the only dependencies on python26 are the -py26 suite of > modules--there does not appear to be anything outside of this self-contained > tree. Is it time to chop down that tree? There are no -py26 modules that do > not have a parallel -py27 variant. Ordinarily, I'd not object to keeping > ancient versions of things around and just stop bringing them forward when we > roll the next Distribution, but python26 is also the only package still using > db48, another ancient version. I'd love to stop having to support ancient > versions of things that are not even getting security-support upstream > altogether. > > dan > > -- > Daniel Macks > dma...@netspace.org > > > -- > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech > ___ > Fink-devel mailing list > Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > List archive: > http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel > Subscription management: > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
On Mar 20, 2014, at 9:40 AM, TheSin wrote: > I vote take out the axe, your python version options are getting out of hand > honestly. > --- > TS > http://www.southofheaven.org/ > Life begins and ends with chaos, live between the chaos! > > On Mar 20, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Daniel Macks wrote: > >> We've been dragging python26 along for years, since back when it was the >> latest thing. It's not. Python27 has been available in fink for many years, >> and even in the past several OS X versions. Upstream says "Python itself has >> jumped to the 3.x series in 2008, with some major changes that may make >> upgrading non-trivial in some cases, so it makes sense to keep "some" >> python2.x in fink (OS X still has python27 and maybe older also). Upstream >> plans to keep 27 in maintenance mode for at least a while longer but gave up >> on even security patches for 26 as I understand it. >> >> As of yesterday, the only dependencies on python26 are the -py26 suite of >> modules--there does not appear to be anything outside of this self-contained >> tree. Is it time to chop down that tree? There are no -py26 modules that do >> not have a parallel -py27 variant. Ordinarily, I'd not object to keeping >> ancient versions of things around and just stop bringing them forward when >> we roll the next Distribution, but python26 is also the only package still >> using db48, another ancient version. I'd love to stop having to support >> ancient versions of things that are not even getting security-support >> upstream altogether. >> >> dan >> >> -- >> Daniel Macks >> dma...@netspace.org I agree. There's no reason to keep 2.6 around as 2.7 is fully backward compatible. It's also reasonable to kill 3.1 as it's now unsupported upstream. 3.3 and the just released 3.4 will stay of course, but we might also consider killing 3.2 even though it still gets patches. 3.3 introduced better backward compatibility with 2.7 to ease porting to 3.x and vastly improved unicode string handling. There are no language changes between 3.3 and 3.4, just new and updated library modules, so if maintainers can add 3.4 variants to their packages that would be awesome. Daniel signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
I agree with all of this we only really need 27 and 33/34. --- TS http://www.southofheaven.org/ Life begins and ends with chaos, live between the chaos! On Mar 20, 2014, at 9:20 AM, Daniel Johnson wrote: > > On Mar 20, 2014, at 9:40 AM, TheSin wrote: > >> I vote take out the axe, your python version options are getting out of hand >> honestly. >> --- >> TS >> http://www.southofheaven.org/ >> Life begins and ends with chaos, live between the chaos! >> >> On Mar 20, 2014, at 12:13 AM, Daniel Macks wrote: >> >>> We've been dragging python26 along for years, since back when it was the >>> latest thing. It's not. Python27 has been available in fink for many years, >>> and even in the past several OS X versions. Upstream says "Python itself >>> has jumped to the 3.x series in 2008, with some major changes that may make >>> upgrading non-trivial in some cases, so it makes sense to keep "some" >>> python2.x in fink (OS X still has python27 and maybe older also). Upstream >>> plans to keep 27 in maintenance mode for at least a while longer but gave >>> up on even security patches for 26 as I understand it. >>> >>> As of yesterday, the only dependencies on python26 are the -py26 suite of >>> modules--there does not appear to be anything outside of this >>> self-contained tree. Is it time to chop down that tree? There are no -py26 >>> modules that do not have a parallel -py27 variant. Ordinarily, I'd not >>> object to keeping ancient versions of things around and just stop bringing >>> them forward when we roll the next Distribution, but python26 is also the >>> only package still using db48, another ancient version. I'd love to stop >>> having to support ancient versions of things that are not even getting >>> security-support upstream altogether. >>> >>> dan >>> >>> -- >>> Daniel Macks >>> dma...@netspace.org > > I agree. There's no reason to keep 2.6 around as 2.7 is fully backward > compatible. > > It's also reasonable to kill 3.1 as it's now unsupported upstream. 3.3 and > the just released 3.4 will stay of course, but we might also consider killing > 3.2 even though it still gets patches. 3.3 introduced better backward > compatibility with 2.7 to ease porting to 3.x and vastly improved unicode > string handling. > > There are no language changes between 3.3 and 3.4, just new and updated > library modules, so if maintainers can add 3.4 variants to their packages > that would be awesome. > > Daniel -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
On 20.03.2014, at 4:20PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: > I agree. There's no reason to keep 2.6 around as 2.7 is fully backward > compatible. > Just an aside, anyone aware of any major Linux distros that still only provide 2.6? This was an issue for many packages like numpy to keep support for older versions, since some places like large companies or computing centres would only upgrade on something like 5-year cycles; this in turn would be a potential incentive for developers to keep a 2.6 installation for testing purposes. Not saying that this has to be provided by fink though if it's too much maintenance. After all one could relatively easily maintain private copies in the local branch, if really needed. > It's also reasonable to kill 3.1 as it's now unsupported upstream. 3.3 and > the just released 3.4 will stay of course, but we might also consider killing > 3.2 even though it still gets patches. 3.3 introduced better backward > compatibility with 2.7 to ease porting to 3.x and vastly improved unicode > string handling. > > There are no language changes between 3.3 and 3.4, just new and updated > library modules, so if maintainers can add 3.4 variants to their packages > that would be awesome. Big +1 to get rid of 3.1! Does anyone know btw if 3.4 already comes with full setuptools support included? It has a %i/bin/easy_install-3.4, and I was able to build and test coverage, nose and numpy without installing it, so maybe a change is in order to *Depends: ( %type_pkg[python] <= 33 ) setuptools-tng-py%type_pkg[python] Cheers, Derek -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:31 AM, Derek Homeier wrote: > On 20.03.2014, at 4:20PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: > >> I agree. There's no reason to keep 2.6 around as 2.7 is fully backward >> compatible. >> > Just an aside, anyone aware of any major Linux distros that still only > provide 2.6? > This was an issue for many packages like numpy to keep support for older > versions, > since some places like large companies or computing centres would only upgrade > on something like 5-year cycles; this in turn would be a potential incentive > for developers > to keep a 2.6 installation for testing purposes. Not saying that this has to > be provided > by fink though if it's too much maintenance. After all one could relatively > easily maintain > private copies in the local branch, if really needed. I know that older debian releases have 2.6 though Squeeze has 2.7 and 3.2. I'm sure there's plenty of 2.6s and even 2.5s floating around. 2.6 and 2.7 are very similar so maintaining compatibility between them isn't that hard. The fink python26 package is still in CVS history of course so if someone wants to resurrect it it wouldn't be hard. Also you could download it from python.org if you wanted it for testing purposes. We have limited resources so anything that reduces maintenance costs is good. :) > >> It's also reasonable to kill 3.1 as it's now unsupported upstream. 3.3 and >> the just released 3.4 will stay of course, but we might also consider >> killing 3.2 even though it still gets patches. 3.3 introduced better >> backward compatibility with 2.7 to ease porting to 3.x and vastly improved >> unicode string handling. >> >> There are no language changes between 3.3 and 3.4, just new and updated >> library modules, so if maintainers can add 3.4 variants to their packages >> that would be awesome. > > Big +1 to get rid of 3.1! Already done. :) > > Does anyone know btw if 3.4 already comes with full setuptools support > included? > It has a %i/bin/easy_install-3.4, and I was able to build and test coverage, > nose > and numpy without installing it, so maybe a change is in order to > > *Depends: ( %type_pkg[python] <= 33 ) setuptools-tng-py%type_pkg[python] It's not supposed to. :( I thought I'd disabled the installation of setuptools and pip but apparently the python build system isn't respecting the settings. Python 3.4 started bundling pip (which requires setuptools) as a standard packaging system. Unfortunately, that conflicts with fink's packaging since we can't know what packages users might install on their own. The configure script has a --without-ensurepip option which is supposed to not install pip, but it doesn't seem to work. A further problem is that installation of pip/setuptools is only performed if it isn't already present in site-packages. So the first time you build python34, they get installed. But if you rebuild python34 or install a newer version, they DON'T get installed but are, of course, overwritten by dpkg when the new package is installed. What a mess. I'm going to have to think about this some more. I either need to always install them or never install them but there doesn't seem to be any easy way to do that. :( Best to avoid using python34 for now. Daniel signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
On Mar 23, 2014, at 4:36 PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: > > On Mar 23, 2014, at 8:31 AM, Derek Homeier > wrote: > >> On 20.03.2014, at 4:20PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: >> >>> I agree. There's no reason to keep 2.6 around as 2.7 is fully backward >>> compatible. >>> >> Just an aside, anyone aware of any major Linux distros that still only >> provide 2.6? >> This was an issue for many packages like numpy to keep support for older >> versions, >> since some places like large companies or computing centres would only >> upgrade >> on something like 5-year cycles; this in turn would be a potential incentive >> for developers >> to keep a 2.6 installation for testing purposes. Not saying that this has to >> be provided >> by fink though if it's too much maintenance. After all one could relatively >> easily maintain >> private copies in the local branch, if really needed. > > I know that older debian releases have 2.6 though Squeeze has 2.7 and 3.2. > I'm sure there's plenty of 2.6s and even 2.5s floating around. 2.6 and 2.7 > are very similar so maintaining compatibility between them isn't that hard. > The fink python26 package is still in CVS history of course so if someone > wants to resurrect it it wouldn't be hard. Also you could download it from > python.org if you wanted it for testing purposes. We have limited resources > so anything that reduces maintenance costs is good. :) > >> >>> It's also reasonable to kill 3.1 as it's now unsupported upstream. 3.3 and >>> the just released 3.4 will stay of course, but we might also consider >>> killing 3.2 even though it still gets patches. 3.3 introduced better >>> backward compatibility with 2.7 to ease porting to 3.x and vastly improved >>> unicode string handling. >>> >>> There are no language changes between 3.3 and 3.4, just new and updated >>> library modules, so if maintainers can add 3.4 variants to their packages >>> that would be awesome. >> >> Big +1 to get rid of 3.1! > > Already done. :) > >> >> Does anyone know btw if 3.4 already comes with full setuptools support >> included? >> It has a %i/bin/easy_install-3.4, and I was able to build and test coverage, >> nose >> and numpy without installing it, so maybe a change is in order to >> >> *Depends: ( %type_pkg[python] <= 33 ) setuptools-tng-py%type_pkg[python] > > It's not supposed to. :( I thought I'd disabled the installation of > setuptools and pip but apparently the python build system isn't respecting > the settings. Python 3.4 started bundling pip (which requires setuptools) as > a standard packaging system. Unfortunately, that conflicts with fink's > packaging since we can't know what packages users might install on their own. > The configure script has a --without-ensurepip option which is supposed to > not install pip, but it doesn't seem to work. A further problem is that > installation of pip/setuptools is only performed if it isn't already present > in site-packages. So the first time you build python34, they get installed. > But if you rebuild python34 or install a newer version, they DON'T get > installed but are, of course, overwritten by dpkg when the new package is > installed. What a mess. > > I'm going to have to think about this some more. I either need to always > install them or never install them but there doesn't seem to be any easy way > to do that. :( Best to avoid using python34 for now. Of course, I could just spell the frickin' option correctly. --without-ensurepip works a lot better than --without-ensureip. :p python34 3.4.0-2 now never installs setuptools/pip. I've also added py34 variants to setuptools-tng-py and pip-py. Continue to depend on setuptools like always. This way we retain control over the setuptools version separate from python. Daniel signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
Re: [Fink-devel] Killing python26
On 23.03.2014, at 9:50PM, Daniel Johnson wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone know btw if 3.4 already comes with full setuptools support >>> included? >>> It has a %i/bin/easy_install-3.4, and I was able to build and test >>> coverage, nose >>> and numpy without installing it, so maybe a change is in order to >>> >>> *Depends: ( %type_pkg[python] <= 33 ) setuptools-tng-py%type_pkg[python] >> >> It's not supposed to. :( I thought I'd disabled the installation of >> setuptools and pip but apparently the python build system isn't respecting >> the settings. Python 3.4 started bundling pip (which requires setuptools) as >> a standard packaging system. Unfortunately, that conflicts with fink's >> packaging since we can't know what packages users might install on their >> own. The configure script has a --without-ensurepip option which is supposed >> to not install pip, but it doesn't seem to work. A further problem is that >> installation of pip/setuptools is only performed if it isn't already present >> in site-packages. So the first time you build python34, they get installed. >> But if you rebuild python34 or install a newer version, they DON'T get >> installed but are, of course, overwritten by dpkg when the new package is >> installed. What a mess. >> >> I'm going to have to think about this some more. I either need to always >> install them or never install them but there doesn't seem to be any easy way >> to do that. :( Best to avoid using python34 for now. > > Of course, I could just spell the frickin' option correctly. > --without-ensurepip works a lot better than --without-ensureip. :p > Which did what - downloading packages from random IPs? ;-) > python34 3.4.0-2 now never installs setuptools/pip. I've also added py34 > variants to setuptools-tng-py and pip-py. Continue to depend on setuptools > like always. This way we retain control over the setuptools version separate > from python. Thanks, that seems to work now. Derek -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Fink-devel mailing list Fink-devel@lists.sourceforge.net List archive: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.os.apple.fink.devel Subscription management: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fink-devel
