Re: [Fis] Chemical Information---Anthony Reading

2011-09-21 Thread Pedro C. Marijuan



 Mensaje original 
Fecha:  Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:32:45 -0500 (CDT)
De: aread...@verizon.net





Re: Chemical Information



There is also an aspect of chemical information that is relevant to 
biologists more than chemists. As I proposed in my book on Meaningful 
Information (Springer 2011), this can be defined as detected patterns of 
matter or energy that have an effect on the detecting entity (i.e. cause 
a change in either its structure, functioning or behavior). Chemical 
information in this scheme of things consists of the spatial patterns of 
certain molecules (ligands) that enable them to fit into 
the3-dimensional structure of particular proteins, thereby causing the 
latter to change their shape in a way that triggers a response in the 
involved cell. The mechanism is highly selective, in that each protein 
tends to bond only with a specific ligand and this alters its shape in a 
way that activates a particular cellular response. Protein molecules 
represent the main information detectors in biology, since they are 
responsible for the way cells and organisms regulate their internal 
environments and adapt to their external ones. The way these large 
molecules are able to detect and respond to chemical informational 
patterns is also the basis for the senses of taste and smell, as well as 
the effects of hormones, pheromones, and neurotransmitters.




Anthony Reading




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Re: [Fis] Chemical Information---Anthony Reading

2011-09-21 Thread Gavin Ritz
There is also an aspect of chemical information that is relevant to
biologists more than chemists. As I proposed in my book on Meaningful
Information (Springer 2011), this can be defined as detected patterns of
matter or energy that have an effect on the detecting entity (i.e. cause a
change in either its structure, functioning or behavior). 

 This makes no sense to me at all. A change in shape or structure is not
information it's more like energy. Since when has this become information?

There is not one scrap of evidence for biological information, not one.

I also can't see how matter or energy is detected (becomes) information. If
so where is the math for this, where is the test, where is the evidence. 

Chemical information in this scheme of things consists of the spatial
patterns of certain molecules (ligands) that enable them to fit into
the3-dimensional structure of particular proteins, thereby causing the
latter to change their shape in a way that triggers a response in the
involved cell. 

This also makes no sense to me.  Where is the evidence for this or even a
test to show that this information exists in chemical structures? Chemistry
is about the reaction of structures and the transformations so how does this
now become information. 

The mechanism is highly selective, in that each protein tends to bond only
with a specific ligand and this alters its shape in a way that activates a
particular cellular response. Protein molecules represent the main
information detectors in biology, since they are responsible for the way
cells and organisms regulate their internal environments and adapt to their
external ones. The way these large molecules are able to detect and respond
to chemical informational patterns is also the basis for the senses of taste
and smell, as well as the effects of hormones, pheromones, and
neurotransmitters.

This is all well covered by chemistry I just don't get the sudden addition
of this thing called information. Where is the evidence for it? Where is the
test for it? This all seems like conjectures, assumptions and propositions
with no proof at all. Sorry just don't get this information part.

Please show me one experiment for the existence of information in chemistry
or biochemistry. Or even some conceptual mathematical concept that shows
there is information in biological entities. 

To me this entire concept of information just seems like a mirage with no
sound theoretical basis or even some form of conceptual mathematics. How is
it that so many smart people are fooled by this concept?

Regards

Gavin

 

 

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Re: [Fis] Chemical information: a field of fuzzy contours ?

2011-09-21 Thread Igor Gurevich
2011/9/16 Michel Petitjean petitjean.chi...@gmail.com:
 Chemical information: a field of fuzzy contours ?
 -

 Before turning to chemistry, I would recall some facts that I noticed
 on the FIS forum:
 although many people consider that a unifying definition of
 information science is possible (to be constructed),
 a number of other people consider that there are many concepts of
 information which are not necessarily
 the facets of an unique concept, so that it could be better to speak
 about information scienceS,
 and not about information science.
 I can read on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_science
  Information science is an interdisciplinary science primarily
 concerned with the
 analysis, collection, classification, manipulation, storage, retrieval
 and dissemination of information. 
 and some fewer lines above:
  Information Science consists of having the knowledge and
 understanding on how to collect, classify, manipulate, store, retrieve
 and disseminate any type of information. 
 Clearly, collecting, storing, and retrieving information let us think
 that we must deal with databases.
 The question where is information is neglected, although answering
 it is enlighting:
 no doubt that much information is stored in data banks.
 There are strong connections of Information Science(s) with Data
 Mining (DM) and Knowledge Discovery in Databases (KDD).

 Is the situation clearer in chemistry ?

 Undoubtly there is a field of chemical information.

 The ACS (American Chemical Society) has a Division of Chemical
 Information (CINF),
 named as such in 1975, but which in fact goes back to 1943
 (http://www.acscinf.org/).
 CINF is active and organizes various meetings which can be retrieved on the 
 web.
 Visit also http://www.libsci.sc.edu/bob/chemnet/chchron.htm, an
 informative website.

 The ACS publishes the Journal of Chemical Information and Modeling
 renamed so in 2005
 after having been named Journal of Chemical Information and Computer
 Sciences from 1975 to 2004,
 itself being the continuation of the Journal of Chemical
 Documentation from 1961 to 1974.
 In fact, it is the same journal (one volume per year), which turned to
 chemical information the same year that CINF received his actual name.

 Interestingly, still in 1975, the main cheminformatics lab in France
 (in fact the only one in France at this time) was renamed.
 The old name was LCOP (Laboratoire de Chimie Organique Physique),
 and the new name was ITODYS, still in vigor,
 meaning until 2001: Institut de TOpologie et de DYnamique des
 Systemes. This name, which can be understood in English due
 to the close similarity between the French and the English words, was
 partly due to the existence of a distance in the molecular graphs
 (this distance is the smaller number of chemical bonds separating two
 atoms), and as known, a distance induces a topology:
 it clearly acknowledged the cheminformatics aspects of the research
 performed in the lab.

 Chemical Information Science, which is sometimes named Chemical Informatics
 (http://www.indiana.edu/~cheminfo/acs800/soced_wash.html)
 can be reasonably considered to be a part of the Cheminformatics field.
 This latter is defined on Wikipedia
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheminformatics):
 Chemoinformatics is the mixing of those information resources to
 transform data into information and
 information into knowledge for the intended purpose of making better
 decisions faster in the area of
 drug lead identification and optimization.
 This definition, dated from 1998, clearly acknowledges the extraction
 of information from data,
 but it is restrictive since it discards all pioneering works about
 computerization of chemical databases,
 including structural formulas coding and structural motifs retrieval,
 which historically cannot be denied
 to be the core of the cheminformatics field.

 Now let me write more lines about the story of cheminformatics in France,
 which is a bit funny but enlights the debate on the definition on the
 field of chemical information.
 The French pioneer was Jacques-Emile Dubois (1920-2005), founder of
 the LCOP and of the ITODYS,
 who published his first cheminformatics paper in 1966. One of his main
 ideas was to use the concept
 of concentric layers in the molecular graphs: the nodes are the atoms
 and the edges are the bonds,
 the neighbours of a node constitute the first concentric layer around this 
 node,
 the next neighbours constitute the second layer, and so on.
 This concept was known to mathematicians such as Cayley and Polya.
 Here, the challenge was to explain to experimental chemists that in a
 number of applications, such as QSAR
 (Quantitative Structure-Activity Relationship), the use of sets of two
 concentric layers around focus atoms
 may be more efficient that the usually taught approaches based on
 squeletons and substituents.
 Dubois also thought that this concept could help to