-------- Original Message -------- Subject: information between living and nonliving circle Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:24:37 +0800 From: Xueshan Yan <y...@pku.edu.cn> Reply-To: y...@pku.edu.cn Organization: CHINAPKU To: Pedro C. Marijuán <pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es> CC: Wolfgang Hofkirchner <wolfgang.hofkirch...@tuwien.ac.at>
Dear Pedro, The following are some discussions between Michel and me, the resolution about this problem is a fatal testimony that if we canextend information studies into nonliving circles or not. If you think it have some significance, you can add it to FIS mailing list! With all good wishes, Xueshan 17:24, April 15, 2013 Peking University ================================================ Dear Xueshan, About FIS 1994 and 1996, Pedro is the best placed to help you. I did not read Nalewajski's book, but your question is very interesting. Information theory is a mathematical tool (probabilistic) developped by Shannon in 1948 to modelize communication by messages in computer sciences. It appears that some of maths equations he got, and particularly what he called "entropy", were similar to the ones derived by Boltzmann in statistical mechanics at the end of the 19th century to modelize Clausius thermodynamical entropy (this latter goes back to defined in 1865). This formal analogy is the reason why von Neumann suggested to call entropy the quantity derived by Shannon. >From this formal analogy resulted an incredible jam. Now chemists like to see information in molecular systems although, in my opinion, there is not, at least in the historical sense of communication science. Of course that does not preclude to apply information theory to molecular systems and get results. But it does not mean that information (in its original communication sscience meaning) exists in molecular systems. Adding to the jam, the definition of information is not fixed and is still debated along the years, and we know that the one from information theory is only a very particular case. So, depending on which definition of information we use, may be it applies to molecular systems or may be not. In fact I am afraid that there is a more general confusion: the one between the mathematical models and the physical systems to which these math models are applied. Let me take an example. Some years ago there was a discussion on the internet forum CCL between computational chemists. The question was: do orbitals exist ? Some people (mostly in the US) said yes, because they can be measured from some point of views. Some people said no (mostly in Europe), because it is just a mathematical tool we developped to modelize a physical system, and it is not the physical system itself. I would say no: orbitals are mathematical concepts in our head, and should not be confused with the physical systems to which they are applied. The same kind of problem may arise with information. Once we can identify several important physical situations (include the human and social ones) to which we accept to apply a common terminolgy such as "information", then may be we can idealize these situations and produce a formal definition, this latter being applicable in the mentioned physical situations. All that is a problem of terminology, although not necessarily mathematical. FIS and ISIS can help to build a definition and propose it as a candidate for an "official" definition, at least for a time (concepts may change along the time). Let me observe that, due to the cultural diversity over the world, it could be difficult to solve terminology problems. Maths is a transcultural tool to do that, but I am not sure that it suffices: so many concepts are not maths problems. However, I am very happy to see that people from diverse countries like to discuss such topics: it is very good. I am not expert in information science (just interested in), all what precedes is just a personal opinion for discussion and possibly I misanalyzed the things. Best, Michel. 2013/4/15 Xueshan Yan <y...@pku.edu.cn <mailto:y...@pku.edu.cn>>: =============================================== Dear Michel, Thank you! I am very familiar with your FIS 2005 website long before. Have you read the Polish chemist Nalewajski's book: Information theory of molecular systems (Elsevier, 2006)？ I really want to know if there are INFORMATON that play a role between twoatoms, or two molecules, or two supramolecules as Jean-Marie Lehn said. As to FIS 2005, I need every review about all four FIS conferences held in Madrid, Vienna, Paris, and Beijing, but only a general review about FIS 2005 not be given by people so far. Best regards, Xueshan 9:59, April 15, 2013 Peking University -- ------------------------------------------------- Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ -------------------------------------------------
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