Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark, The redundancy is apophatic. Redundancy is not "given", but generation by the specification of a model: what is specified as a system. Redundancy can also be considered as options other than the ones realized. As we argued in our Kybernetes paper, technological developments may enlarge the number of options by orders of magnitude. The redundancy and maximum entropy can then proliferate much faster than the realizations. This development of the economy is knowledge based. How can we study and operationalize redundancy or the apophatic? By studying and improving our models which generate them in the reflection. In operational terms, by the specification of informed hypotheses. Our imagination enables us to envisage options other than the ones realized and the communication (discourse) can entertain models that provide a phase space of options, other than realized or imagined. Hypotheses can be tested and modified. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff, Inga Ivanova, and Mark Johnson, The Communication of Expectations and Individual Understanding: Redundancy as Reduction of Uncertainty, and the Processing of Meaning <http://ssrn.com/abstract=2358791> , Kybernetes 43(9/10) (2014) 1362-1371. Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR) l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex; Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing; Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en -Original Message- From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Mark Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2016 10:04 AM To: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing Dear Sergej, Rafeal, Loet, Dai and list, First of all, thank you very much for the references – Gieryn looks fascinating (thanks Loet), and I will check out the Hobart and Schiffman (thanks to Pedro). It always strikes me how powerful acts of intellectual generosity are, and how much difference there is between pointing to a reference as if to say “This is the gang of academics who either agree with me or I disagree with them!” and “As someone who’s travelled along a similar path to you, I believe you might find this enlightening”. When we write academic papers, we tend to (indeed, have to) do the former. The latter is far more empathic - which leads me to reflect on Rafael’s comment about pre-understanding (I say more about this further down) On a forum like FIS, we can do the latter. I ask myself which is more useful or constructive in scientific discourse, and which should be encouraged? Between the comments of Dai and Sergej I think there is what Pedro refers to as the ‘critical stance’ (as in critical theory etc, I guess). Here I would like to clarify my position. I do not believe that we “ought” to change the way we communicate about science because publishers and universities have too much power; that they have too much power is a systemic consequence of something else. Rather the argument is that the nature of the science we now practice (complex, uncertain, contingent) necessitates new forms of communication, and this science cannot effectively communicate itself through traditional media. It is not an argument about ‘oughts’, it is an argument about the ontology of complex science and communication; it is a complex science reflection on the communication of complex scientists. That we currently have complex science and highly attenuated channels of communication is a source of pathology: we are at a transitional stage in history and such periods are often accompanied by all manner of social and political problems (just think of the pathologies of the early 1600s!). One feature of this is that we slip from talking about ‘is’ to ‘ought’ without reflection. I’m unconvinced by the power of political arguments (however much our professors of sociology would like to persuade us otherwise!) for moving things on – it only encourages what Bacon criticized in the Cambridge academics of the 1600s: “They hunt more after words than matter” (I worry about words like ‘entanglement’ – what does it mean?); it is scientific arguments and practices which carry the greatest power and which (in the end) are ontologically inseparable from political change. I suspect the distinctions between different kind of arguments are the result of different kinds of constraint. Having said all this about science, I want to say something about theology(!) Rafael’s point about “pre-understanding” sent me to the work of Arthur Peacocke and to the relationship between ‘information’ and ‘logos’. To see information as constraint in both in the science we do, and in the way we communicate our scientific understanding,
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
y as if by right (where else would you go), are now forced to take > an active role in order to maintain their preeminence in the new > technological environment. They use their existing position to avert threats > to their future control, through coordination on policy, regulation and law > (e.g. right of access to papers, brought into sharp focus by the tragic > death of Aaron Swartz a couple of years ago). > > In a separate dynamic, technology is being used to manage these changes, > which are themselves given impetus by the alignment of technology with > managerial methods (Key Performance Indicators, etc), and with the business > models of financialisation, privatisation and precarious employment. > > I don't think we will get to the bottom of these matters, still less change > them, without engaging with the processes in a political way, however good > our analysis of technology per se may be. > > Now I'll go off to check out Sci-Hub, ... or maybe I'll wait until I leave > the office and get home. > > Dai > > >> >> >> From: Fis [fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff >> [l...@leydesdorff.net] >> Sent: 27 September 2016 08:27 >> To: 'Moisés André Nisenbaum'; 'Mark Johnson'; 'fis' >> >> Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing >> >> Dear Mark, Moises, and colleagues, >> >> I agree that this is a very beautiful piece of work. The video is >> impressive. >> >> My comment would focus on what it is that constructs reality "by language" >> (p. 2). I agree with the remark about the risk of a linguistic fallacy; but >> how is the domain of counterfactual expectations constructed? The answer in >> the paper tends towards a sociological explanation: "status" for which one >> competes in a new political economy. However, it seems to me that the >> selection mechanism has to be specified. Can this be external to the >> communication? How is the paradigmatic/epistemic closure and quality control >> brought about by the communication? How is a symbolic layer shaped and >> coded? >> >> One cannot reverse the reasoning: the editorial boards follow standards >> that they perceive as relevant and can reproduce. The standards are not a >> convention of the board since one would not easily agree. Reversing the >> reasoning would bring us back to interests and thus to a kind of neo-marxism >> a la the sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK). In actor-network theory >> (ANT) the emergence of standards happens historically/evolutionarily, but is >> not explained. >> >> I don't have answers on my side. But perhaps, the strength of anticipation >> and the role of models needs to be explored. Models can be entertained and >> enable us to reconstruct a knowledge-based reality. >> >> Best, >> Loet >> >> >> Loet Leydesdorff >> Professor, University of Amsterdam >> Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR) >> l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ >> Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex; >> Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, >> Beijing; >> Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; >> http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Moisés André >> Nisenbaum >> Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:45 AM >> To: Mark Johnson >> Cc: fis >> Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing >> >> Dear Mark. >> >> Thank you for the excelent video and article. It is very important to >> discuss this and, if you agree, I will use your video with my students (can >> you send me the transcription?). >> No doubt we are in a changing world and we have to fight against abusive >> processes, like publication industry. >> >> In Rafael's article, the question “what is a scientific journal in the >> digital age?” I understand that we must think outside the box. I think it >> would be great if some group invent a kind of "Uber" of scientific >> production. Something that connect directly authors and readers at feasible >> rates. arXiv does this connection in some way, but it is not universal. >> E-science is also a good initiative. >> >> Related to this discussion, UNESCO will do an event on Wednesday >> (sep/28th) at Museu do Amanhã (Rio de Janeiro) called International Day >> for Universal Access to Information (http://en.unesco.or
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark, and all, Great videos. Sorry to be slow on this important theme, I have just got back from some intensive travel in China. Mark asks at the end of the first video "why (in an uncertain world) do we continue to put so much emphasis on the academic journal". In answering, I would not disagree with any of Mark's comments, but I would stress the policy and political entanglement of technology. In the past there was no alternative to print media, and so no need to enforce the hegemony of the journal in the ways that Mark has outlined. The publishers and universities who were passive recipients of the tribute of the academic community as if by right (where else would you go), are now forced to take an active role in order to maintain their preeminence in the new technological environment. They use their existing position to avert threats to their future control, through coordination on policy, regulation and law (e.g. right of access to papers, brought into sharp focus by the tragic death of Aaron Swartz a couple of years ago). In a separate dynamic, technology is being used to manage these changes, which are themselves given impetus by the alignment of technology with managerial methods (Key Performance Indicators, etc), and with the business models of financialisation, privatisation and precarious employment. I don't think we will get to the bottom of these matters, still less change them, without engaging with the processes in a political way, however good our analysis of technology per se may be. Now I'll go off to check out Sci-Hub, ... or maybe I'll wait until I leave the office and get home. Dai From: Fis [fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] on behalf of Loet Leydesdorff [l...@leydesdorff.net] Sent: 27 September 2016 08:27 To: 'Moisés André Nisenbaum'; 'Mark Johnson'; 'fis' Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing Dear Mark, Moises, and colleagues, I agree that this is a very beautiful piece of work. The video is impressive. My comment would focus on what it is that constructs reality "by language" (p. 2). I agree with the remark about the risk of a linguistic fallacy; but how is the domain of counterfactual expectations constructed? The answer in the paper tends towards a sociological explanation: "status" for which one competes in a new political economy. However, it seems to me that the selection mechanism has to be specified. Can this be external to the communication? How is the paradigmatic/epistemic closure and quality control brought about by the communication? How is a symbolic layer shaped and coded? One cannot reverse the reasoning: the editorial boards follow standards that they perceive as relevant and can reproduce. The standards are not a convention of the board since one would not easily agree. Reversing the reasoning would bring us back to interests and thus to a kind of neo-marxism a la the sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK). In actor-network theory (ANT) the emergence of standards happens historically/evolutionarily, but is not explained. I don't have answers on my side. But perhaps, the strength of anticipation and the role of models needs to be explored. Models can be entertained and enable us to reconstruct a knowledge-based reality. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR) l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex; Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing; Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en -Original Message- From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Moisés André Nisenbaum Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:45 AM To: Mark Johnson Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing Dear Mark. Thank you for the excelent video and article. It is very important to discuss this and, if you agree, I will use your video with my students (can you send me the transcription?). No doubt we are in a changing world and we have to fight against abusive processes, like publication industry. In Rafael's article, the question “what is a scientific journal in the digital age?” I understand that we must think outside the box. I think it would be great if some group invent a kind of "Uber" of scientific production. Something that connect directly authors and readers at feasible rates. arXiv does this connection in some way, but it is not universal. E-science is also a good initiative. Related to this discussion, UNESCO will do an event on Wednesday (sep/28th) at Museu do Amanhã (Rio de Janeiro) called International Day for Universal Access to Information (http://en.unesco.org/iduai2016). But the fact is: we are human and the worry about &qu
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark and Colleagues, Thanks for the well crafted work. Actually you have presented us a tightly linked work along perspectives of philosophical, historical, and present day criticisms stances. For my taste, Sections 1 and 2 are a matter of opinion, of philosophical orientation, closer in this case to critical stances. Speech social-construction, status function, scarcity declaration, communication definition, information-uncertainty sciences, etc. Some of these topics are or have been subject to hot debate in this list, so I decline entering--anyhow, my personal impression is that such kind of oriented approach although formally consistent, leave aside important aspects of the phenomenon. But it is good that you have made the consistent scheme. Historically, the parallel between publication in that transitional period of the "scientific revolution" and our times of "information revolution" is well developed. Just to enlarge the panorama, I recommend /Information Ages/. Literacy, Numeracy, and the Computer Revolution. Michael E. Hobart and Zachary S. Schiffman. (2000). The publication practices around the "papiri era", culminating in the Alexandrian Library, and the "codices era", around the monastic system first and later around the university system are the two big precedents. The underlying phenomenon in all eras revolves around the "sharing of knowledge", a genuine cognitive instinct that is channeled in different ways by existing social orders and available technical resources. Not much different from the artistic pulsion--and often closely interlinked (paradigmatic Leonardo da Vinci). In our times, there is a famous sentence by premier Zhou Enlai "It is too early to say"... However personally I share most of the concerns raised by Mark, adding a pessimistic note on the impact that the new techs are having in the "creative engine" of science. Although multiple new fields have been open thanks to the computer upheaval (precision medicine, omic revolution, nanosciences, social physics, social neurosceince, social networks, big data everywhere, etc etc), the amazing bounty has been accompanied by new problems. On the one side a new aristocracy related to big sceince projects and techno-utopian goals, more and more distanced of the common researcher, plus an enormous increase of computer-mediated bureaucratization. Besides, the really easy communication tools and the multiplicity of channels have derived in an unselected overflow that impacts negatively on the slow reflection needed in science: rushing from screen to screen, no time to think. Something similar is happening in technically mediated social relationships--terrible for instance in adolescents. If we are going toward a symbiosis man-machine, the prospects are not fascinating. Well, these are comments from a late baby boomer, hardly adapted to the new order... Best greetings to all --Pedro I El 26/09/2016 a las 9:55, Mark Johnson escribió: Dear FIS Colleagues, To kick-start the discussion on scientific publishing, I have prepared a short (hopefully provocative) video. It can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bh3vqM98-U (if anyone's interested, the software I used for producing it is called 'Videoscribe') I have also produced a paper which is attached. I hope you find these interesting and stimulating! Best wishes, Mark ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- - Pedro C. Marijuán Grupo de Bioinformación / Bioinformation Group Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud Centro de Investigación Biomédica de Aragón (CIBA) Avda. San Juan Bosco, 13, planta X 50009 Zaragoza, Spain Tfno. +34 976 71 3526 (& 6818) pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es http://sites.google.com/site/pedrocmarijuan/ - ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark, Moises, and colleagues, I agree that this is a very beautiful piece of work. The video is impressive. My comment would focus on what it is that constructs reality "by language" (p. 2). I agree with the remark about the risk of a linguistic fallacy; but how is the domain of counterfactual expectations constructed? The answer in the paper tends towards a sociological explanation: "status" for which one competes in a new political economy. However, it seems to me that the selection mechanism has to be specified. Can this be external to the communication? How is the paradigmatic/epistemic closure and quality control brought about by the communication? How is a symbolic layer shaped and coded? One cannot reverse the reasoning: the editorial boards follow standards that they perceive as relevant and can reproduce. The standards are not a convention of the board since one would not easily agree. Reversing the reasoning would bring us back to interests and thus to a kind of neo-marxism a la the sociology of scientific knowledge (SSK). In actor-network theory (ANT) the emergence of standards happens historically/evolutionarily, but is not explained. I don't have answers on my side. But perhaps, the strength of anticipation and the role of models needs to be explored. Models can be entertained and enable us to reconstruct a knowledge-based reality. Best, Loet Loet Leydesdorff Professor, University of Amsterdam Amsterdam School of Communication Research (ASCoR) l...@leydesdorff.net ; http://www.leydesdorff.net/ Associate Faculty, SPRU, University of Sussex; Guest Professor Zhejiang Univ., Hangzhou; Visiting Professor, ISTIC, Beijing; Visiting Professor, Birkbeck, University of London; http://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ych9gNYJ=en -Original Message- From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of Moisés André Nisenbaum Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:45 AM To: Mark Johnson Cc: fis Subject: Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing Dear Mark. Thank you for the excelent video and article. It is very important to discuss this and, if you agree, I will use your video with my students (can you send me the transcription?). No doubt we are in a changing world and we have to fight against abusive processes, like publication industry. In Rafael's article, the question “what is a scientific journal in the digital age?” I understand that we must think outside the box. I think it would be great if some group invent a kind of "Uber" of scientific production. Something that connect directly authors and readers at feasible rates. arXiv does this connection in some way, but it is not universal. E-science is also a good initiative. Related to this discussion, UNESCO will do an event on Wednesday (sep/28th) at Museu do Amanhã (Rio de Janeiro) called International Day for Universal Access to Information (http://en.unesco.org/iduai2016). But the fact is: we are human and the worry about "reputation" is the real reason of today's organization of scientific communication (about this, this book chapter is very good: VAN RAAN, Anthony FJ. The interdisciplinary nature of science: theoretical framework and bibliometric-empirical approach. Practising interdisciplinarity, p. 66-78, 2000.) Kind regards, Moisés 2016-09-26 4:55 GMT-03:00 Mark Johnson <johnsonm...@gmail.com>: > > Dear FIS Colleagues, > > To kick-start the discussion on scientific publishing, I have prepared > a short (hopefully provocative) video. It can be found at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bh3vqM98-U > > (if anyone's interested, the software I used for producing it is > called 'Videoscribe') > > I have also produced a paper which is attached. > > I hope you find these interesting and stimulating! > > Best wishes, > > Mark > -- > Dr. Mark William Johnson > Institute of Learning and Teaching > Faculty of Health and Life Sciences > University of Liverpool > > Phone: 07786 064505 > Email: johnsonm...@gmail.com > Blog: http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com > > ___ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > -- Moisés André Nisenbaum Doutorando IBICT/UFRJ. Professor. Msc. Instituto Federal do Rio de Janeiro - IFRJ Campus Rio de Janeiro moises.nisenb...@ifrj.edu.br ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark. Thank you for the excelent video and article. It is very important to discuss this and, if you agree, I will use your video with my students (can you send me the transcription?). No doubt we are in a changing world and we have to fight against abusive processes, like publication industry. In Rafael's article, the question “what is a scientific journal in the digital age?” I understand that we must think outside the box. I think it would be great if some group invent a kind of "Uber" of scientific production. Something that connect directly authors and readers at feasible rates. arXiv does this connection in some way, but it is not universal. E-science is also a good initiative. Related to this discussion, UNESCO will do an event on Wednesday (sep/28th) at Museu do Amanhã (Rio de Janeiro) called International Day for Universal Access to Information (http://en.unesco.org/iduai2016). But the fact is: we are human and the worry about "reputation" is the real reason of today's organization of scientific communication (about this, this book chapter is very good: VAN RAAN, Anthony FJ. The interdisciplinary nature of science: theoretical framework and bibliometric-empirical approach. Practising interdisciplinarity, p. 66-78, 2000.) Kind regards, Moisés 2016-09-26 4:55 GMT-03:00 Mark Johnson: > > Dear FIS Colleagues, > > To kick-start the discussion on scientific publishing, I have prepared > a short (hopefully provocative) video. It can be found at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bh3vqM98-U > > (if anyone's interested, the software I used for producing it is > called 'Videoscribe') > > I have also produced a paper which is attached. > > I hope you find these interesting and stimulating! > > Best wishes, > > Mark > -- > Dr. Mark William Johnson > Institute of Learning and Teaching > Faculty of Health and Life Sciences > University of Liverpool > > Phone: 07786 064505 > Email: johnsonm...@gmail.com > Blog: http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com > > ___ > Fis mailing list > Fis@listas.unizar.es > http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis > -- Moisés André Nisenbaum Doutorando IBICT/UFRJ. Professor. Msc. Instituto Federal do Rio de Janeiro - IFRJ Campus Rio de Janeiro moises.nisenb...@ifrj.edu.br ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing
Dear Mark, thanks for your inspiring and indeed provocative presentation. Just some few remarks/questions about: 1) was it since the 16th and 17th century also a nationalistic issue when claiming who was the first one to have done a 'discovery' and is it in a different way still today? Do you know of any analysis on this? 2) You describe the changes of _scientific_ publication and particularly the issue of journals that have to do with the shorter time of 'discoveries' (journals=jours=days) with the rise of modern empirical science. Where is the difference with regard to the humanities and literature? The role of copyright (including patents) is, as you know, changing and you point to this indirectly at the end of your video presentation which I very much share. But the economic (and national?) power of big players is still there, creating scarcity in a time of (potential) digital abundance of 'information' 3) A few months ago I wrote a paper (in Spanish) on: "What is a scientific journal?" with similar insights to the ones you present http://informatio.eubca.edu.uy/ojs/index.php/Infor/issue/view/16/showToc best regards Rafael Dear FIS Colleagues, To kick-start the discussion on scientific publishing, I have prepared a short (hopefully provocative) video. It can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bh3vqM98-U (if anyone's interested, the software I used for producing it is called 'Videoscribe') I have also produced a paper which is attached. I hope you find these interesting and stimulating! Best wishes, Mark ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis -- Prof.em. Dr. Rafael Capurro Hochschule der Medien (HdM), Stuttgart, Germany Capurro Fiek Foundation for Information Ethics (http://www.capurro-fiek-foundation.org) Distinguished Researcher at the African Centre of Excellence for Information Ethics (ACEIE), Department of Information Science, University of Pretoria, South Africa. Chair, International Center for Information Ethics (ICIE) (http://icie.zkm.de) Editor in Chief, International Review of Information Ethics (IRIE) (http://www.i-r-i-e.net) Postal Address: Redtenbacherstr. 9, 76133 Karlsruhe, Germany E-Mail: raf...@capurro.de Voice: + 49 - 721 - 98 22 9 - 22 (Fax: -21) Homepage: www.capurro.de ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis
Re: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing. Please resend article.
Dear Mark (if I may), I quite agree with the thesis of your published article, which is what the indicated link first took me to. Now, it takes me only to the Youtube and I have lost the article! One should continue: if it is a 'logic of the market' that is biasing decisions in scientific publishing, maybe we should get rid of the neo-capitalist market system for this as well as other reasons! I also have some comments on Bhaskar but I would like to read the article again. Many thanks. Best regards, Joseph Brenner - Original Message - From: "Mark Johnson" <johnsonm...@gmail.com> To: "fis" <fis@listas.unizar.es> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 9:55 AM Subject: [Fis] Scientific Communication and Publishing Dear FIS Colleagues, To kick-start the discussion on scientific publishing, I have prepared a short (hopefully provocative) video. It can be found at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Bh3vqM98-U (if anyone's interested, the software I used for producing it is called 'Videoscribe') I have also produced a paper which is attached. I hope you find these interesting and stimulating! Best wishes, Mark -- Dr. Mark William Johnson Institute of Learning and Teaching Faculty of Health and Life Sciences University of Liverpool Phone: 07786 064505 Email: johnsonm...@gmail.com Blog: http://dailyimprovisation.blogspot.com ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis ___ Fis mailing list Fis@listas.unizar.es http://listas.unizar.es/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fis