Re[2]: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Steve McIlree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thursday, 30 April 98, Julie Will wrote: > I anticipate that my computer will be positively spilling over the desk with > email when we return...I hope it doesn't self destruct! Julie in New York This is a good opportunity to share another piece of Mailing List technology with everyone. With vacation season approaching, many of us will be leaving our computers on their own for periods of time. The rules vary depending on your Internet service provider, but all have some limit on the amount of e-mail that they will hold before they start bouncing all of your messages. Since the list might be a good portion of the volume, you might want to temporarily shut it off. If you are receiving the regular list you would send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] If on the other hand you are receiving the digest format of the list you would send your message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In either case leave the subject blank and put the words "set nomail" in the body of the message. When you return from vacation and want to once again receive the list, you would send another message to the same address; this time containing the words "set mail". -- Steve McIlree & Cynthia Madden -- Pferd, Keyah, Skipper, Tank -- Omaha, Nebraska, USA If I be once on horse-back, I alight very unwillingly; for it is the seat I like best. --Michel Eyquem de Montaigne(1533-1592)
Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #40
This message is from: Arthur Rivoire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi from Nova Scotia. Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm. I'll try once more to make my thoughts clear about judging stallions . . . well, who knows? I might even try a few more times, if necessary. This Fjordhorse-digest is a wonderful tool for exchanging information. I find it terribly interesting. We all get our say. And, as some participants have said, there are bound to be misunderstandings, and perhaps some hurt feelings. The good thing is that we can almost instantaneously re-explain what may have been said badly, or just misunderstood. Anyway, my point about judging stallions is that the stallion should be judged on his conformational merit, his breed type, his movement, his character, AND his offspring, if they are available. --- Notice I didn't say the word "temperament." I use the word "character" as it's used in Norway and Holland. --- The Norwegians say the Fjordhorse is "difficult to explain . . . difficult to define." And they use the words "Breed Character" a lot. In North America, we use the word "temperament" to mean a particularly gentle and docile horse. --- All Fjord stallions are not gentle and docile, and that is not necessarily a bad thing as long as they are not overly aggressive with a mean temperament. The Norwegians say that "A stallion should look and act like a stallion." I believe that implicitly. You should not have to look underneath a stallion to know he is a stallion. The Norwegians say that "A Fjordhorse should have the character of his gender." Anyway, if a stallion possessing all the desired characteristics shows up at an Evaluation, and for whatever reason does not behave well, I think it would be a crime to judge him poorly. I've been to Norway and to Holland for the stallion judging, and some of the studs are calm, and some are not. Some are trained, and some are not. In my opinion, a stallion's only merit is what he produces. This means the majority of his offspring must be good quality, sound and healthy, and must be useable and trainable. That's what I think! In my new book, THE FJORDHORSE HANDBOOK, I spend several chapters on the Breed Standards, and on Breed Character of the Fjord. The book has 300 pages, and 150 photographs. So far, it's had excellent reviews. The book is available from Beaver Dam Farm for $29.95 U.S. dollars, plus $7 p & h. We accept VISA or personal checks. Our address is- RR 7 Pomquet, Antigonish County, Nova Scotia, B2G 2L4 - tel. (902)386-2304. Best regards from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm, Nova Scotia http://www.grassroots.ns.ca/~beaverdf/
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This is from Julie responding to Gail regarding photo's - we are leaving for Norway (eat your hearts out!!!) on Saturday, so please don't send the picture of Gunthar until we get back. (The 11th of May.) As soon as we are back I will post a message on the net letting all of you know how the horses in the "home" country look this year! I also plan to video tape as many of the stallions as possible, and will be glad to make copies for anyone who sends me blank tapes and a mailer to get them back. I will be discussing the "in-progress" NFHR breed standard with reps from the Norges Fjordhestlag as well...should be a very stimulating and educational trip! I anticipate that my computer will be positively spilling over the desk with email when we return...I hope it doesn't self destruct! Julie in New York
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> We have to send them directly to each other or we will definitely be in big trouble with Steve. A little awkward, I know. It would be better to get them posted to a Web page so we don't have to go through the struggle of downloading them individually and filling up our hard drives (Gunthar is stunning, yes, but you will think less of his beauty when you see the space he takes on your harddrive - about one floppy I think). Anyway, if you are still enthusiastic I will forward the picture, plus my comments, plus the comments (cryptic, unfortunately - I;m told the new evaluations are much more comprehensive) *from his 1992 Fjord evaluation at Libby.* At 03:59 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >At 08:53 AM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >>This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> Hey Gail, this is Julie @ Old Hickory Farm. I think it would be a fun >exercise, and I would be happy to participate as well with photos of horses >from our farm. However, we need to check with Steve, because I think I >remember reading that one shouldn't post pictures??? Are you sure Gunther >wouldn't object? Fortunately, Gunthar is not vain, he is hungry! Gail > > > > Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: introduction
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 01:45 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: Terry Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Hello, > >Welcome aboard, Terry. Yes, these little darlings can walk all over you. I think John Lyons combination of "round pen" training augmented with his suggestions for leading work very well. You do have to be VERY firm, and VERY consistant. Good luck and hope to see you around! Julie @ Old Hickory Farm, Weedsport, New York
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: Julie Will <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 08:53 AM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Hey Gail, this is Julie @ Old Hickory Farm. I think it would be a fun exercise, and I would be happy to participate as well with photos of horses from our farm. However, we need to check with Steve, because I think I remember reading that one shouldn't post pictures??? Are you sure Gunther wouldn't object?
introduction
This message is from: Terry Bruno <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hello, I have been enjoying this list all month and thought I should introduce myself. My name is Terry Bruno, I live in Bedford, Massachusetts, a suburb of Boston, with my husband and two daughters. We currently have two horses. A 13 yr old Quarter horse/ Thoroughbred gelding named Aurora Boris that is my older daughter's pony club and eventing mount and an almost three year old Fjord gelding named Felicity'sPatrick. Patrick was bred by the Giagiari's at their Felicity Farm in New Hampshire. His sire is Kongard and his dam is Sunday. I purchased him from Carol Rivoire (Hi Carol) at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia. We are currently driving him lightly, have just started him under saddle (about 4x so far about 10 minutes each) and are mostly working on his ground manners. As I understand from this list and from talking to other Fjord owners, some Fjords can be pushy and stubborn, and that's Patrick all over. He drives pretty well for a youngster and he's a beautiful mover, so if we can overcome some dominance/ground manner issues we'll try and take him to a few local driving shows in New England later this summer. When he's older we hope our daughters will ride him as well as being the family's driving horse. Well this seems long enough. If anyone has any good advice about how to convince Patrick that everything he sees does not need to be investigated by his mouth and to walk where I want to go and not where he wants to go, I'd appreciate it. If later this summer you see a stout middle aged woman being dragged around some New England driving show grounds by the cutest, nicest moving Fjord you ever did see, that will be me, try to stop us and say hello. -- Terry Bruno[EMAIL PROTECTED] Bedford, MAAdaptive Optics Associates, Inc.
Re: Evaluations - Cyber and Otherwise
This message is from: GAIL RUSSELL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This discussion is very helpful to me, a new Fjord owner. A couple thoughts re the utility of on farm, in person and cyber evaluations. It seems there are at least two distinct (and maybe others I do not recognize) reasons for evaluations. Serious breeders want evaluations to use in marketing their stock. They need a recognized standard that will reward them for taking the time and trouble to breed good stock. If there is no North American evaluation the breeder is not rewarded for producing good North American-bred stock. Instead, the breeders are rewarded for importing European stock that has been evaluated. It is to everyone's advantage (owners and breeders) to have such a program in place that should improve the overall quality of NA bred Fjords. Owners (defined as novice owners and owners who might breed only occasionally)want to know (1) how to buy a "good Fjord" and (2) whether their Fjord is a "good Fjord." Owners are motivated to know either because they might want to breed their Fjord (or acquire breeding stock) or just out of ego/curiosity reasons. I have been persuaded that breeders justifiably want to avoid a cyber/picture evaluation because of the unavoidable distortion that comes from camera angles, etc. A video evaluation instead of an evaluation from still shots might help - but maybe not. I am still not sure what to think about the on-farm evaluations. Since the stakes are so high when a breeder's horse is evaluated, I understand that a breeder wants their horse evaluated "in-the-flesh" and alongside other Fjords for comparison. Owners, on the other hand, do not have so much to gain or lose from an informal commentary on/assessment of their animal if it does not involve any kind of award that makes the animal more valuable for breeding/sale. In that case, I think even cyber "evaluation," with all its hazards, would be worthwhile. For example, if I put up a picture of Gunthar on the Web and invited comments on his feet, legs, back, hip, neck, head, mouth, feet, I would learn something about the difference between a good and bad Fjord. This would better inform my buying/breeding decisions (which would, in turn, be helpful to breeders of quality stock). It would also keep me entertained and out of trouble. :) If I then shared the comments with others, others could learn as well. Not sure what to do about "movement analysis", unless we start video-taping our horses and sending the tape around the country. Re the logistics: I am not sure their is any way to get a good-sized picture (at least 3 X5) on a web page. If there is, I could send Gunthar's "profile shot" to Saskia, where everyone could see it. Alternatively, I could e-mail Gunthar's pictures to volunteers. I would than volunteer to receive e-mail comments, and compile them into a single e-mail (or a series, cut to manageable size - but including the good, the bad, and the ugly comments). Ideally the comments and picture would be available together on the Web page. Is there interest in this? If the "Gunthar as guinea pig" experiment works, others could do the same. This might take a lot of work, with little real results, - but maybe it would be a spectacular success for those of us who are isolated. Gail Gail Russell Forestville CA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: fjordhorse-digest V98 #38
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 06:15 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: "Glen MacGillivray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Just some comments about evaluator vs horses traveling: > >>This message is from: Ursula Jensen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >>Someone on the list was also asking about judges visiting farms to evaluate >>horses. It was decided in North America that this would not happen. > >Hopefully, open minds can prevail and decisions need not necessarily be >final. The discussion of where and how evaluations can/should be done is an >important and interesting one. We should not avoid the issue simply because >of an existing paradigm. > Well I was not a member of the committee that decided the Evaluation rules but... I think one of the main reasons they decided this way was that they wanted to make sure all of the horses were evaluated on equal ground. This isn't real important with the Conformation part of the eval but it does become real important with the Performance tests. It is thought to be imperitive that they all go through a "Standard" course. They want to make sure that even the stone boat that is used is the same at all of the evaluations. I think the feeling was that most farms couldn't supply the proper size rings and facilities necessary. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily agree with all of the rules but I do think it is important to have the tests run on the same size & shape courses and do all of the same tests etc. Maybe the tests need to be modified to allow them to be held in smaller facilities. Just my 2 cents... >>All Evaluations would be held at a neutral facility. This would discourage >>favoritism and/or encourage impartiality. > >It simply discourages those with larger distances or lesser financial means >from participating. > Yes it does. It makes it almost impossible for a breeder in say North or South Carolina, Georgia or Florida to attend one. >I believe that it is far more sensible for the evaluator to travel to the >horse(s) than for the horses to travel to an evaluation. It's actually >rather silly in some ways to think of does of horses traveling hundreds or >thousands of miles collectively when a single person, by air, could see all >of the horses in a shorter period, in surroundings comfortable for the >horse, at lower cost. I do think it has some merit for sure. I think I will bring it up again on one of our BOD meetings. If the evaluation process is going to be useful I think it is going to have to be available to more people/horses. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry http://www.nfhr.com Mike May, Registrar mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 ===
Re: Evaluation - Cyber style?
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 09:16 PM 4/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > >Maybe we're getting enough Fjords in the Fairbanks area (15 or so by mid >summer) to have judges come up here for an "on farm" evaluation someday! >Maybe they'd come up to see Alaska and throw an evalutation in the deal! >(Competitive Trail Ride judges often come up for just airfare to judge our >rides, and we show them around Alaska!) > Ok I am in as the Technical Delegate! I haven't been to Alaska since I spent a year up there when I was in the Coast Guard in 66 - 67. Boy that sounds like al o n g time ago now! The last time I was there it was at Port Clarence. It was about 70 or so miles north of Nome. No trees, no roads (except to the runway & back) and only 30 other people to talk to. Ah, life on a Coast Guard LORAN station... === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry http://www.nfhr.com Mike May, Registrar mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 ===
Re: more practical thoughts on evaluations
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 11:46 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (BRIAN C JACOBSEN) > >To recap: > >1. Voluntary evaluations are a great thing in the US, but mandating them >will not be well accepted. > I think you hit the nail right on the head Brian. This is a "Free Country". If the NFHR decided to make the evaluations mandatory we would probably see a lot of breeders registering their horses with a different registry. >2. Breeders and serious competitors of Fjords will distinguish >themselves by participating in evaluations, thus attracting current and >prospective owners more serious about acquiring quality horses. Breeders >who don't participate will still sell Fjords, though in general more to >people only wanting "pets" or not as serious about breeding. > And I think this is the way it should be. >3. Evaluations will help keep our Fjords more true to their heritage >than the traditional American system of judging, which we currently use >at Registry shows. Also, since conformational judging is part of both a >show and an Evaluation, there is some duplication. So why have both? > Well one of the reasons I can think of is that the NFHR doesn't actually have any shows. We only have Evaluations. All of the shows are put on by the promotional groups. Most of them are affiliated with the NFHR but not all of them. At some of the shows any Fjord is welcome no matter what Registry it is registered with. So a Evaluation rating given at a show may not be as well received by a person with a non NFHR registered horse. I think that if someday we all happen to become one big registry then it might work. Of course we would still have the Canadian registered horses in some of the shows too. I think we could work that out though. >Now I will freely admit I am not an authority on showing. My >grandfather, who starting raising the Fjords, never felt the need, and >Barb and I are short on time and long on distance (from any shows). We >do consider ourselves serious breeders and are going to start >participating in Evaluations though. So perhaps I am overlooking a >simple reason for judging conformation (i.e. halter classes) at a show, >and judging it again at an Evaluation. If so, please tell me. If not, >why do both? Save time and money and just do the one which tells the >most about the horse. This would seem to be the Evaluation. > See above >Finally, there is no problem to making Evaluations more available. But >it takes two things: money and workers. If we as NFHR members are >serious enough about this idea, we can make it happen. > Yes I think you have it here. I think we are a pretty lucky group as it is to have the number of volunteers we do have already. We do still need people to come forward though and volunteer for stuff like this. Volunteers do burn out after awhile. And you do want new blood and new ideas all of the time. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry http://www.nfhr.com Mike May, Registrar mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Webster, NY, USA (Suburb of Rochester) Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 ===
Re: Dave & Nancy Newport introduction
This message is from: Reinbowend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I would like to tackle the evaluation topic for just a bit. As Irecall the last time we had the Dutch come over for a public evaluation. ( Ceacy and Ifooted the bill,) The registry made it a policy that we would not have European evaluate our american horses again. Ofcourse this policy could easily be changed by a vote of the board, and as I see it the simplest way to get this thing going would be to allow individuals with large farms and numbers of horses all over NA to assume the airfare responsibility of getting the evaluators to their farms and taking care of them until such time as they moved on to the next site.. It shouldn't be made to seem so difficult. Those wishing to learn more and keep up the quality of their breeding stock wouldn't hesitate to spend the money and those smaller or individual horse owners in close proximity would be welcome to bring their horses to the farms. I am still leaning towards having the europeans do our evaluations because they have years more experience and there standards for conformation and performance are in place. At the very least we should continue to have them come to this country and do clinics such as the one taking place in BC this month. Sorry Carol, didn't know my girls were such a problem for Gjest. Vivian
Summer in Sweden !!
This message is from: "Susanne Grönqvist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I just want to say that we´ve summer here in Sweden now. 22 degrees ( celsius ), actually. It´s really nice, and you can drop all your winterclothes ! I´m going to visit one of my relatives this weekend, who have a fjord called Belinda. She´ll be 20 in june, but she´s behaving like a young colt when she gets out on the roads !! Specially, she likes big open fields were you can run for your life, ( and throwing off your rider ), and terrainjumping, I nearly can´t get hold of her when we´re out jumping in the forrests. Isn´t it really nice when you can ride to one of those small sees, having a picnic with you, some friends, and go bathing with your horses ?? It´s the best thing I know in the summer !! Summer greetings ! from Susanne, Sweden __ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
