Re: Re: Stallion Behavior
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Carol, I didn't think that we were talking about breeding behavior. I thought we were addressing public manners. I don't think anyone would fault a stallion for unbridled enthusiasm in the breeding shed so long as it was not threatening to his handlers although I do think you can train even the most anxious individual to have manners there too. I believe the issue was the stallions temperment outside a breeding situation such as having to be led into a judging situation by two handlers. Again possibly a training issue. I don't disagree with you at all about judging a stallion based on his temperment alone. I think I made that clear, however if even the most inexperienced of us can insist on semi-decent behavior in hand ,in public then it should be what we expect. As for Marnix, he has a tremendous amount of personality and requires lots of time and effort, but he is a wonderful family horse who responds to all the Creigh's,big and little, and gets plenty of hugs and kisses as a result. Last year at Woodstock we were waiting for some class in the jump field and he heard my family's collective voices approaching from the side he immediately looked in their direction with obvious expectation of some love and affection. I was moved as were those watching. He was justly rewarded with plenty of attention. Is he perfect?... far from it. Do we insist that he behave when out and about, damn straight. If he didn't then he wouldn't be my stallion. Vivian
Re: Stallion Behavior
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hi from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Julie's post about acceptable and unacceptable behavior of stallions, was RIGHT ON THE MONEY! She talked about a stallion, eager and virile, that pulled her across the yard, but would never strike or charge her. The problem, as I see it, is that some people expect Fjord stallions to be so low key that they'll walk quietly up to the mare, quietly mount her, and do the job. Hey! If there really are such stallions out there, and they have as much QUALITY as QUIET, then that's the best of all worlds. However, it seems unrealistic to me. I've been handling Gjest during breeding for coming on twelve years, and it hasn't gotten any less nerve-wracking. He never strikes. He never charges. He never bites me, but I tell you, I have to be sure my shoelaces are tied when we come out of that gate, and Gjest sees the mare hobbled and waiting . . . I don't have much choice other than to go with the flow, so to speak. I've had horse-wise friends (Warmblood & TB people) watch our breeding, and they're amazed that it's over so quickly, that this Fjord stallion is so efficient. They tell me of Warmblood & TB stallions that take ages to get the job done. --- They were impressed! I have to think that a stallion that takes a long time to do the job has to have less libido than a stallion like Gjest. And sure, the one who takes forever to get himself worked up is going to be much easier to handle than a more eager stallion. And I suppose it might be tempting to own a stallion with lower testosterone levels . . . but is it good for the breed, or just good for the breeder? Now I know Vivian is going to tell us that Marnyx has plenty of libido and is also quiet, and if that's so, then she's very lucky. And, other people are going to tell me that it's all a matter of training, and they may be right. . . . I'm just wondering. Regards, Carol Rivoire Carol and Arthur Rivoire Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II R.R. 7 Pomquet Antigonish County Nova Scotia B2G 2L4 902 386 2304 http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/beaverdf
Re: Spongy hocks
This message is from: Steven A White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Meredith,
Is spongy hocks a permanent condition? Yes, if left untreated it will be
a permanent condition. It does not flair up with use. In fact, the
swelling tends to decrease when the horse is used and then puffs back up
when the horse is rested for a time. This is probably due to the
increased circulation and flexing of the joint removing some of the
fluid.
In most cases it is not painful unless there is an underlying problem
with the joint. It is usually just a blemish and not a source of
lameness with the horse.
It can be treated medically. Sometimes anti-inflamatory drugs like
phenylbutazone ("Bute") or some of the "joint protective" drugs like
Adequan or Legend will control the swelling. The quickest and most
reliable treatment though is an intra-articular injection of cortisone
and/or hyaluronic acid. Depending on the severity, a single treatment is
all that is needed, or repeated injections may have to be done. I must
point out though that treatment of this condition has some ethical
problems attached to it. If treated, the horse may then be shown or sold
with apparently normal hocks. Which unfortunately is done quite a bit in
the horse world. So if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
In most cases spongy or boggy hocks are caused by excess joint fluid in
the joint. The lining of the joint produces the joint fluid and when
this lining is irritated it produces more fluid. This is probably why
horses with poor conformation (straight hocks, sickle hocks, etc.) tend
to be more prone to boggy hocks. These types of conformations produce
added stress to the joint and therefore the joint capsule becomes
inflamed and more fluid produced.
The biggest reason that horses are faulted for this condition goes back
to the work horse days. This same condition occurs at the fetlock joint
and is known as "wind puffs". A person purchasing a work horse would
check closely for these conditions. A horse with wind puffs or boggy
hocks was a horse that had seen a lot of work and there was probably a
reason for him being sold.
As I said, in most cases this is just a blemish, but sometimes can
indicate an underlying problem with the joint. One of these is OCD.
This is a disease in which a piece of malformed bone and the overlying
cartilage flakes off into the joint causing swelling. I think of it like
painting a fence. If you don't scrape off the old paint and dirt and
just paint over it, the new paint will flake off with the old. That is
what happens in the joint. Cartilage forms over the end of the bone. If
the bone beneath is damaged or malformed, they will chip off and float
about the joint. It therefore is wise if purchasing a horse to have the
joints X-rayed if there are bogs or wind puffs to check for a possible
proble like OCD.
This is probably more than you wanted to know, but I was feeling chatty.
Steve White
Waterloo, NE, USA
Re: More Van Bon
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >I forgot. The other Van Bon-ism than we appropriated was his description of >what a stallion should be. He would say it should have the "I am here", I have a copy of the video from that session and yes, that is one scene I remember! Seems he thought one stallion was "Too Nice, like a mare" and had not been "that nice" when he was in Holland. The stallion's owner had worked long and hard to teach her stallion good manners, but he got marked down because he was "too nice!" Interestingly, I was "ordered" to return this video when another stallion owner objected because it showed Van Bon finding a major defect, a stifle problem, in her treasured young stallion. Somehow I never got around to returning it. Does anyone have the original of this tape? It is really educational (if tedious) as it shows the whole Conformation Clinic that was held, from weanling through stallions at the end. Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, where we are enjoying winter at its best, +20, sunny and beautiful today! (in the forecast at least, sun is not quite up yet) Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Spongey hocks
This message is from: Sessoms <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Is spongy hocks a permanent condition? Or does it flair up with use? Is it painful? Can it be controlled with medicine? Meredith Sessoms Soddy-Daisy, Tennessee, USA mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dorina ~ NFR Aagot ~:~ Fjordinger Caper ~ Carly ~ Crickett ~:~ Labradors
Re: Picture
This message is from: Jean Ernest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 10:46 AM 2/20/99 EST, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > We are new to this net. > > Can you tell me how to find the Norway fjord horse registry web page with the >picture of the Ideal fjord click on this site: http://home.sol.no/~snygaard/fjord.html Be sure to check out her gallery and pictures! They are wonderful! Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, +5 F this morning, up to +20! Wonderful weather! Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Perfect Horse
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/20/99 7:55:27 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I have extra copies of the March thru Dec 1998 issues of John Lyons' Perfect Horse magazine. Anyone who wants them is welcome to them, I would just like to be paid for shipping them to you. >> That is a wonderfully kind and generous offer. If you have enough I'd certainly be interested. Let me know. Pamela
Standing Stalls
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/20/99 6:46:21 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << We've used the standing stalls with poles for almost twenty years, and it works well for us. >> Again, you described it very well, and intriguingly almost as well as you did in your book. But I still find myself pulling away from the thought of standing stalls. I couldn't use them... There are a lot of very good horsemen and women who DO use them, so I'm not knocking them. Maybe it's because I'm projecting my own needs on the horses. I like to have plenty of space to move around in, resist being tied down, insist on my freedom and personal space, and love to roam. Anyway, there are so many different ways to care for horses. As long as they/we are all happy and healthy and benefitting from our various ways of horsecare, that's the bottom line. I enjoy learning how other people do things, even if I follow a different path. I particularly love to hear how the horses fare up in Alaska with the -55 degree weather and moose, etc. Pamela
The angle of the dangle
This message is from: Joel a harman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> It must be a little known fact of questionable interest that scrotal measurements are standard fare when evaluating bulls. So many cows to cover, so much ground to cover to do it, & so little time in which to do it. So what's the POINT, Harman!? The point being that von Bon is seeing how many mares the stallion can cover in a day. As a sidelight he is endearing that boy to him forever. I'm sure you've heard the term - "by the b!" On the it takes two discussions - there is a time to "whisper", & there's a time to "cowboy". There is a fine line between abuse & training. Horses must respect your space. I do what it tales to see that mine respect my space & others that might be handling them. In case you haven't noticed, they are MUCH larger than us. Box stalls - Easier to catch the horse when you want to work them. If one really does work one's horses maybe not a bad idea. It has been my observation that the more un-natural things one does to a horse the more undesirable behaviors will be manifested. My opinion - humans "collect" things, cars, kids, too many horses, not enough ground for the horses. So they end up in a box. Not enough time to deal with all the horses - so they stay in the box. How do you feel after being in the office all day without getting out? Sell some horses or get more ground & turn them out. Your young stallion is being a butthead? Turn him out with the mares. They will take him to school in a hurry. He will have excellent manners & you're not the bad guy. Probably better to do during winter when no mares are cycling. If you hand breed (although I can't imagine why) & he's being a butthead - no mares today. Puts a cramp in your schedule but patience has its virtues. Maybe he'll associate being a butthead with not getting the girl. They aren't stupid just - testosterone driven. Better yet pasture breed. He's not going to get hurt IF you do this at a young age. His job is to service mares. Stallions have been doing that long before we got a hold of them. He's probably a lover & you don't know it because you haven't given him a chance to show it. He knows when the mare is ready & he's not going to hurt the foal cause he has one thing on his mind. My monthly request. There is a setting on your reply button which allows you to reply without repeating the ENTIRE MESSAGE YOU ARE REPLYING TO PLEASE UTILIZE IT WE are not stupid. We have read the post. We can basically run our computers so please desist. Thank you Joel Harman ___ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Re: Dog stories
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 2/20/99 4:24:35 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << My son is fine it was Pamela's that was sick. Hope is better. >> He's sitting next to me eating saltines as I type. First time he's been in the computer room with me in ages. Definitely on the mend (thanking the Gods). I've been deleting a lot of mail recently, not from this list, but my other one which can easily generate 500 pieces of mail in one day!! But apparently I deleted your response accidentally Mike. But when I read Jean's cut and paste of your response, "destroy the owners", it gave me the first real laugh I've had all week. Thanks! Pamela
Perfect Horse
This message is from: Lori Albrough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have extra copies of the March thru Dec 1998 issues of John Lyons' Perfect Horse magazine. Anyone who wants them is welcome to them, I would just like to be paid for shipping them to you. Good magazine - worth a test ride. There is no advertising and they always have impartial product reviews in addition to training articles. First come, first served. Lori
Picture
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] We are new to this net. We live near Amana Iowa and have Two mares and a colt with one on the way. we have a small Zoo here and I enjoy the horses and Bee keeping. Can you tell me how to find the Norway fjord horse registry web page with the picture of the Ideal fjord horse.
More Van Bon
This message is from: "Dave McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >A young stallion prospect should have a sparkle, class, a "presence" which shines out in a pasture full of weanlings or I forgot. The other Van Bon-ism than we appropriated was his description of what a stallion should be. He would say it should have the "I am here", which he would say and puff up, arms parallel to his chest, looking the jaunty image of a little boy trying to look bigger than himself. It imprinted deeply on my mind, and I never look at a stallion without evaluating whether it has the "I am here".
Spawn-gee
This message is from: "Dave McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I remember clearly the first time I saw Bob Van Bon, in Woodstock VT. As he went from one horse to the next, he was always checking the hocks, to see if they were "spawn-gee". We liked the word so much that we appropriated it to apply to many situations - anything that was a little off became "spawn-gee". As in: "Clouds coming in, looks like the weather's getting a little spawn-gee this afternoon". About Mexican dogs. Somehow all the dogs in Mexico seemed to be trained to flee at the sound of "tsee" that you make exploding air through your front teeth. What Mexicans do to these dogs to get them so fearful of that noise I never learned. But I never saw a dog there that wouldn't turn tail when you did that. About Dutch horses and Danish breeding: note that the Dutch horses all initially came from Denmark. I believe the quality they show today is in very, very large measure due to Van Bon's gifted eye and shrewd stallion buying.
Re: Jumpy stallions
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Arthur Rivoire) Hi All, from Carol Rivoire at Beaver Dam Farm in Nova Scotia - Lori, did I hand you that line, or what? Gads! I'm still erupting in uncontrolled laughter thinking about it. How hilarious! Van Bon gooseing the stallions, indeed! To Bill Coli, You mentioned that Van Bon had commented on the desirability of hocks being dry and hard, rather than fluid filled, and you wondered if that's what I was referring to in regards to legs. Yes, exactly! To me, that's what it means. "Dry, hard, & clean" means I can't feel anything in there other than bone and tendon. As I say, I don't have any medical training, and as a layperson, that's what I look for. REGARDING THE USE OF STRAIGHT STALLS -- This subject is fully explained in my book, but I can briefly explain why we like them. Many of our Nova Scotia Driving Vacation guests have been quite impressed with the setup, and have taken photos to reproduce in their barns. At Beaver Dam Farm, we have 13 standing stalls, all with a swinging pole between each horse. We also have 8 box stalls. Our stallion, Gjest, has a box stall, as do the weanlings, and the others are for special situatiions. This is why we like them --- #1 - You can fit more horses into the space. #2 - A straight stall uses far less bedding than box a stall. #3 - Much easier & quicker to clean #4 - Good discipline for the horse. Learns to stand quietly. #5 - With a feeding aisle in front of the straight stalls, feeding is much quicker. #6 - A handy way to teach a horse to back up correctly. We like the swing poles rather than fixed sides in the straight stalls because - #1 - horse can't get cast. #2 - Pole teaches them a lot. For instance, sometimes they get a leg over the pole, and learn not to panic. They learn to stand close to their neighbor and respect his space. The pole bangs them in the side as they fool around with it, and they learn not to worry about such things. --- Almost none of our Beaver Dam Farm Fjords II horses in Pomquet, Nova Scotia, which has the warmest water this side of the Carolinas, (sorry, couldn't resist) horses kick or bite each other. We have one or two cranky old mares, so we put those next to a horse they get along with === No problem! We've used the standing stalls with poles for almost twenty years, and it works well for us. To Anne Appleby and Vivian Creigh - Yes, of course, you're right. I didn't mean to imply that European Fjords could be clutzes barging through jumps. I guess I overstated a bit to make my point, which was - - - As I understand the Dutch performance tests, the horse's attitude is heavily weighted. For instance, the dressage tests. I've always understood they judge more on how the Fjord does the test, rather than how accurate his circles are. How does he move? Is he easy in the bridle? Is he willing, forward, obedient? Does he have a good trot, a good walk? To tell you the truth, these are the things I'm always concentrating on, which is exactly why I'm a lousy competitor. I'm apt to forget the next figure in a dressage test because I'm so delighted with the quality of my horse's trot . . . or whatever. And finally. . . a few words regarding the number of stallions in North America. I don't think it's a question of how many stallions, we have. It's a question of trying only to use the best we have. It might be helpful if we could change our mindset about "stallions." In my mind, every male horse is not a stallion. As Julie Will said, the good ones proclaim themselves almost from birth. You can see their "specialness" even when they're tiny colts. BDF Kanada King was such a colt. He was born to be a breeding stallion. Same thing with his full brothers, BDF Malcom Locke and BDF Obelisk. They all had it. --- BDF Idar, the gelding in CA competing in dressage didn't have it as a baby. However, he developed into everything anybody could want in a stallion. --- At least, I think he did. --- We never game him a chance to find out if he had the libido. Perhaps he didn't. He never showed it as a colt. Maybe he was too nice. We'll never know now. Mike May mentioned that many of the Fjord stallions are only breeding 3.5 mares per year, which isn't a lot, but not bad either considering the distances we have to contend with. -- I once went to a seminar on Morgan breeding, and they said the average Morgan stallion only covered 1.5 mares per year. And Morgans can cross-breed. Of course, everybody knows, Fjord stallions cannot, without losing their registration papers. I think, that in order to safeguard the treasure we've inherited from Norway, we absolutely should have some kind of STALLION APPROVAL in North America. WE SHOULD EMULATE THE MOTHER COUNTRY OF OUR BREED. That makes perfect sense to me! Many well-meaning people are using Fjord stallions that shouldn't be used. These are stallions that are introducing weak
Re: Bloodlines, stallions, and mares
This message is from: "Mike May, Registrar NFHR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 07:51 PM 2/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Hello all! > >Here comes another of those NOVICE questions. > >How can there be too many stallions? I can understand the desire to >avoid.what does Arthur and Carol call them"backyard stallions"? >However, if we are discussing good quality stallions, with positive showings, >evaluations, etc., I am afraid I do not yet see the problem. Well you have actually hit it on the head. There are not too many good quality stallions. Just to many so so stallions. === Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry Mike May, Registrar Voice 716-872-4114 FAX 716-787-0497 http://www.nfhr.com mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Dog stories
This message is from: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> At 04:37 PM 2/19/99 -0800, you wrote: >This message is from: "Jean Gayle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >-Original Message- >From: Mike May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 3:37 PM >Subject: Re: Dog stories > >>Great Mike I am with you, lets start a new club, "Destroy The Owners" >However it might extend from dog owners to owners of basketball teams, boom >boxes, etc. Hope your son is doing better. Jean Gayle Yeah I could go for a few of them too. My son is fine it was Pamela's that was sick. Hope is better. Mike
