Re: Belligerent rider
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger I wasn't saying they aren't intelligent and can't figure things out. It's like not putting bad labels on kids and then treating them differently because of that. Of course kids are intelligent, but if they are crabby or lazy or belligerent, it's not really "their fault", because there is a reason even they don't know that is causing it. If you can figure out the reason, then you can deal with the behavior more effectively, rather than just assumiing it's out of some devious motivation on their part. --- On Sat, 6/22/13, Robin Churchill wrote: From: Robin Churchill Subject: Re: Belligerent rider To: "fjordhorse@angus.mystery.com" Date: Saturday, June 22, 2013, 5:07 PM This message is from: Robin Churchill I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct. People think they are not smart because they don't speak our language. The real problem is that we don't always understand theirs. We really have no idea what they do or don't think or feel. My husband who is a big, tough analytical, unemotional surgeon always says it is people who are the morons who think animals are not intelligent, don't have emotions, etc. I think it is clear that they love certain people or their animal friends, they grieve over losses, they sometimes do things just for the fun of it. They remember people, places and other animals years later. One evening, I had put out hay for the two fjords I had at the time, and went to open the gate to let them in. The mare sprinted forward in true fjord fashion hurrying to get to the hay. The gelding just stopped while I was closing the gate and I thought to myself "what is he doing, she is going to eat all the hay" When I walked up beside him, he fell in step with me and then I knew that what he was doing was waiting for me. I have a gelding now that is the smartest horse I've ever met because I think he understands what you say to him in a more complex way than just one word commands or praise. One evening I was in the feed barn behind the main barn getting the food buckets. Most horses I know are going to follow whoever has the food, not turn and go in the opposite direction if they are told to. I said to this horse with the buckets in my hand, "go to your stall and I'll bring your food". He turned immediately away from the direction I was going with the food and went to his stall and waited for me to come around the other way and dump his food. Now he's conditioned to do it when I tell him, but the first time I told him, I think he understood what I said. My other fjord is not smart in that way. You can dump his food in the bucket and he'll come in the stall, not look in his bucket and come to the stall door and look at me and I have to go over and show him his food is in the bucket. On the other hand, he is smart enough to know to stay in the shade when it's hot, something the other two horses often fail to do. I think as humans we frequently underestimate an animal's intelligence and ignore the fact that they have emotional lives. I think particularly horses can be really traumatized when they are sold and sent to a different place. We expect them to be carted away and then get to some strange place where they know nobody and immediately settle in and do what they are supposed to and what they have been trained to do. We don't acknowledge or realize that they may be grieving for the loss of their owner/handler and their horse friends. There was an article in the past year in the USDF connection (Dec 2012/Jan 2013) about this that is well worth reading because I think it can give some insight into how long it can take for a horse to settle in and bond to a new owner. That article really hit home with me because I had a similar experience when I got my latest fjord. He seemed nothing like the horse I went to look at, so much so that I actually wanted to send him back. I have now said at least a hundred times that I am so glad I didn't because he has turned out to be super. He is friendly, engaging and very steady and also the under saddle work is relatively easy for him. I think he was very bonded to the person who sold him to me and he was completely upset and overwhelmed when he got here because it was totally different. It took about 3 or 4 weeks for him to start to bond to me and actually quite a bit longer than that before he would actually work willingly for me. But, once he decided that I was ok, he really demonstrated a better work ethic than my other fjord. Horses also know the difference between when they are sent to a new owner and when they are just moved someplace else. Levi who had kind of flipped out when he g
Re: Belligerent rider
This message is from: Robin Churchill I respectfully disagree. I think they are a lot smarter than we give them credit for and at times animals certainly know when they have done something they are not supposed to and it is not just by training or instinct. People think they are not smart because they don't speak our language. The real problem is that we don't always understand theirs. We really have no idea what they do or don't think or feel. My husband who is a big, tough analytical, unemotional surgeon always says it is people who are the morons who think animals are not intelligent, don't have emotions, etc. I think it is clear that they love certain people or their animal friends, they grieve over losses, they sometimes do things just for the fun of it. They remember people, places and other animals years later. One evening, I had put out hay for the two fjords I had at the time, and went to open the gate to let them in. The mare sprinted forward in true fjord fashion hurrying to get to the hay. The gelding just stopped while I was closing the gate and I thought to myself "what is he doing, she is going to eat all the hay" When I walked up beside him, he fell in step with me and then I knew that what he was doing was waiting for me. I have a gelding now that is the smartest horse I've ever met because I think he understands what you say to him in a more complex way than just one word commands or praise. One evening I was in the feed barn behind the main barn getting the food buckets. Most horses I know are going to follow whoever has the food, not turn and go in the opposite direction if they are told to. I said to this horse with the buckets in my hand, "go to your stall and I'll bring your food". He turned immediately away from the direction I was going with the food and went to his stall and waited for me to come around the other way and dump his food. Now he's conditioned to do it when I tell him, but the first time I told him, I think he understood what I said. My other fjord is not smart in that way. You can dump his food in the bucket and he'll come in the stall, not look in his bucket and come to the stall door and look at me and I have to go over and show him his food is in the bucket. On the other hand, he is smart enough to know to stay in the shade when it's hot, something the other two horses often fail to do. I think as humans we frequently underestimate an animal's intelligence and ignore the fact that they have emotional lives. I think particularly horses can be really traumatized when they are sold and sent to a different place. We expect them to be carted away and then get to some strange place where they know nobody and immediately settle in and do what they are supposed to and what they have been trained to do. We don't acknowledge or realize that they may be grieving for the loss of their owner/handler and their horse friends. There was an article in the past year in the USDF connection (Dec 2012/Jan 2013) about this that is well worth reading because I think it can give some insight into how long it can take for a horse to settle in and bond to a new owner. That article really hit home with me because I had a similar experience when I got my latest fjord. He seemed nothing like the horse I went to look at, so much so that I actually wanted to send him back. I have now said at least a hundred times that I am so glad I didn't because he has turned out to be super. He is friendly, engaging and very steady and also the under saddle work is relatively easy for him. I think he was very bonded to the person who sold him to me and he was completely upset and overwhelmed when he got here because it was totally different. It took about 3 or 4 weeks for him to start to bond to me and actually quite a bit longer than that before he would actually work willingly for me. But, once he decided that I was ok, he really demonstrated a better work ethic than my other fjord. Horses also know the difference between when they are sent to a new owner and when they are just moved someplace else. Levi who had kind of flipped out when he got here, didn't blink an eye when I moved him and the other horses out for a possible hurricane about a month or so later. He seemed to understand that he wasn't being abandoned, his new friends were with him and he didn't give me or anyone else any trouble at all--how did he know that? Part of it was the other horses were with him but they weren't stalled where he could see them. Also I went to see them every day they were gone but one, but I am convinced that he knew that I would be back for him even though he had only known me for 4-6 weeks at the time. Sorry to be so long-winded but I guess you can stop reading anytime you choose. Robin in Fl where it was less humid and a little breezy today for a change. . It just means that they don't choose to do wrong. They don't choose to do right either. --- Impo
Re: Belligerent rider
This message is from: Rovena Kessinger If you are responding to me saying that animals can't be stubborn, that doesn't mean that they don't have personalities, or they can't figure things out, or are not intelligent. It just means that they don't choose to do wrong. They don't choose to do right either. They simply do what they know, either due to instinct or training. It doesn't make sense to say an animal is stubborn, or lazy, or any other attribute like that, because that implies the knowledge that they know what they are right from wrong. They don't know that, because they don't have the concept of right and wrong from a human perspective. What they do is what they know. If they don't do something, then they don't know to do it. Anything that an animal does that is "wrong" is a training issue, not that the animal has "chosen to do wrong". It's either the fault of the trainer, or the animal is simply not capable of being trained to do that particular thing. It's never a conscious choice on the part of the animal; it never "knows" what is right, but then "chooses" to do what is wrong. That's why I say it doesn't make sense to say that animals are stubborn, lazy, etc. all the adjectives used to describe people who may know what is right but then choose to do wrong. --- On Fri, 6/21/13, Tonja Acker-Richards wrote: From: Tonja Acker-Richards Subject: Belligerent rider To: "Fjord Digest Reply" Date: Friday, June 21, 2013, 5:56 PM This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards So lets see: one writer says animals have no personality but humans do. Are we not in fact animals? Isn't personality regardless of species simply the labels/attributions we apply to behaviors and emotional process? Tekla stands up alone on the hill. Is she depressed? Is she happy to be away from that pesky Ike? Is she sulking because Baby got to go to the clinic? If Telka often stands alone on the hill do we label her standoffish? stubborn? free spirited? belligerent? Seems we make a best guess using observed data and try to work with that personality. My Morgan could hear when the fencer was off and would strum the wire with her lip. We could attribute that pretty fairly to intelligence. She was an alpha mare. She was smart and playful. No she could not plot revenge on me when I sold her son. But she could connect no clicking with wire and beyond that to heaven (grass). No doubt in my mind at first Nickie tried every trick in the book to try (short term plan) to unsettle us (run down hill, wipe your through pine boughs, dump in puddle, over jump tiny stick, fake trip, fake drunk (weave out driveway), lay down (sooo embarrassing in halter class) etc. Most fascinating is each trick was played only once! He is coming along great and later we bought his Mom who is clearly the tree from which he fell! Must say we got Nick from nice people who treated him like a spoiled puppy which leads me to the blame the trainer thread: First of all of course good training matters. But we do not (I hope) blame the parent of autistic child for the kid's bad social skills. Why wouldn't horses or lines of horses have these same genetic differences and deficits? I wonder how animals perceive the personality of humans? Somehow they might differentiate the nice one from the mean one. The pushover from the assertive leader. What do they make of Tekla's behavior? I find personality very interesting concept. I must be inquisitive:) Tonja Acker-Richards Pond House Farm Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Belligerent rider
This message is from: Tonja Acker-Richards So lets see: one writer says animals have no personality but humans do. Are we not in fact animals? Isn't personality regardless of species simply the labels/attributions we apply to behaviors and emotional process? Tekla stands up alone on the hill. Is she depressed? Is she happy to be away from that pesky Ike? Is she sulking because Baby got to go to the clinic? If Telka often stands alone on the hill do we label her standoffish? stubborn? free spirited? belligerent? Seems we make a best guess using observed data and try to work with that personality. My Morgan could hear when the fencer was off and would strum the wire with her lip. We could attribute that pretty fairly to intelligence. She was an alpha mare. She was smart and playful. No she could not plot revenge on me when I sold her son. But she could connect no clicking with wire and beyond that to heaven (grass). No doubt in my mind at first Nickie tried every trick in the book to try (short term plan) to unsettle us (run down hill, wipe your through pine boughs, dump in puddle, over jump tiny stick, fake trip, fake drunk (weave out driveway), lay down (sooo embarrassing in halter class) etc. Most fascinating is each trick was played only once! He is coming along great and later we bought his Mom who is clearly the tree from which he fell! Must say we got Nick from nice people who treated him like a spoiled puppy which leads me to the blame the trainer thread: First of all of course good training matters. But we do not (I hope) blame the parent of autistic child for the kid's bad social skills. Why wouldn't horses or lines of horses have these same genetic differences and deficits? I wonder how animals perceive the personality of humans? Somehow they might differentiate the nice one from the mean one. The pushover from the assertive leader. What do they make of Tekla's behavior? I find personality very interesting concept. I must be inquisitive:) Tonja Acker-Richards Pond House Farm Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
