Re: Burning question for Ruthie
This message is from: "John & Eunice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Regardless of what anyone has said -- topics or statements criticized or commented on -- no one should EVER, EVER be compared to Osama Bin Laden. Gayle -- within your question <<> has to be one of the worst "put downs" I have read on the Fjord Digest. I don't know either one of you but I'm sure Ruth doesn't deserve this. ~Eunice Deere Country Fjords in sunny s-w Ontario
Re: burning question
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Ruth, > > I never suggested what you stated below. Would you please retract the > statement. > Mark McGinley That your suggestion of evaluating all stallions leads to a narrowed breeding pool? It's not entirely clear to me what your original proposal entailed of course, but even the most benign directive for stallion selection could lead to eventual inbreeding. That's a true statement. Coincidentally, just this morning I received a letter from a world class geneticist in Norway, Hanne Fjoerdingby Olsen, who has done considerable research on this subject, has written documented works, etc. (along with well known Dr.Bjornstad) he states, (direct quote)... "I have not been working with Norwegian Fjord horses, but I have worked with two other Norwegian breeds, the Dole horse and the Nordland horse, and calculated the development of their level of inbreeding and their genetic diversity. But their breeding history is somewhat similar with the Fjord Horse, and they have followed approximately the same breeding strategy, which is selection of stallions and a wide use of "matador" stallions, meaning that a few (very good) stallions have been used exceptionally often and have a lot of progeny. This kind of breeding will function as a bottleneck in a population and is not healthy in a LONG TERM view, because it will increase the inbreeding level in the population. Since I have not done any calculations on the Norwegian Fjord Horse, I can of course not say anything about this breeds' state. But our opinion is that among the Norwegian breeds, the Fjord Horse is the breed coping best with the inbreeding situation, BECAUSE they HAVE STARTED to focus more on the USE of the horses, instead of the EXTERIOR. And they have, of course, subpopulations in foreign countries." (end quote) I found this somewhat reassuring, to learn that Norway is keeping up with science and starting to focus more on the genotypical than the phenotypical (inner versus outer). This concern about over-selection leading to a breed's downfall will mean little to anyone that does not try and grasp understanding of what a "breeding population" is. A "genetic population" is the sum total of all possible alleles within any specific breed. The breed begins with a complete set or quota of all possible genetic combinations... like, for instance, a large square of fabric that has individual different colored squares, (phenotype-outer) woven together by underlying strands, (genotype-inner) which have the ability to recreate themselves perpetually. We can choose which squares we want to recreate, but if we always choose the blue square for eye appeal, after a while the yellow, green, and some other squares have become extinct and that portion of the whole genetic set is gone forever! We have the ability to shrink the square through our breeding choices. Along with their exit went that portion of the fabric that may have held great intrinsic qualities not visible to the naked eye. The portion that remains, the blue square offspring, begin to color in those remaining missing squares, (inbreeding) because they have incrementally accumulated a majority of blue alleles. (overlapping genes). So eventually the entire square is blue.. they all appear alike, but the offspring have lost vital genetic material they cannot regain and eventually the breed deteriorates through blue saturation. NOW is the time that we can preserve and protect the future of the Fjord horse, the basic function of a breed's registry, by research and resources based on scientific information and not the proverbial well traveled calf-path of traditional over-selection. Again, I challenge anyone to find a bona-fide geneticist that currently supports breeding selection based on blue ribbon choices.. you will discover, without exception, they ALL warn against it. Ruth Bushnell, nw mt US
Re: Burning Question
This message is from: Mariposa Farm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ruth, I never suggested what you stated below. Would you please retract the statement. Mis-stating facts doesn't help your argument much. "I have offered professional resources and contacts to anyone that is interested in determining whether or not the narrowing of breeding stallions, as Mark suggested, ultimately leads to over-selection, inbreeding, and a loss of genetic diversity." Mark McGinley Mariposa Farm
Re: Burning Question
This message is from: "starfirefarm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I have offered professional resources and contacts to anyone that is interested in determining whether or not the narrowing of breeding stallions, as Mark suggested, ultimately leads to over-selection, inbreeding, and a loss of genetic diversity. Perhaps I missed it in an earlier post, but what kind of number percentages are we talking about when referencing over-selection in any particular population? Beth -- Starfire Farm Beth Beymer and Sandy North http://www.starfirefarm.com
Burning Question
This message is from: "Ruth Bushnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> This past spring Phillip Odden asked me to gather together those facts I could find in support of the hypothesis that the over-selection of breeding candidates eventually leads to a lessening of the breed population gene pool and results in inbreeding, which leads to all manner of degeneration. This I am doing, because I care very deeply about Fjords and their secure future as a breed, just as you and many others do too. I may not be able to do as much as you have done, but I can do what I can and this issue of over-selection takes my interest. I probably got interested in it because I know that it is over-selection that has ruined and destroyed many dog breeds. We can learn from their plight.. the dog, having a shorter gestation and life period, has come full circle much faster in their breeding consequences. We can learn from their mistakes. This investigation should not detract from all the time and work in the past that has been devoted to conformationally evaluating Fjords, in a time when we weren't aware of protecting our entire gene pool, but now we should know better. Time and science marches on, with or without us. What was relevant 20 or 30 years ago in breeding strategies is no longer. I have offered professional resources and contacts to anyone that is interested in determining whether or not the narrowing of breeding stallions, as Mark suggested, ultimately leads to over-selection, inbreeding, and a loss of genetic diversity. Why not respond by offering conflicting data from a professional geneticist? ..you can't find a professional that would support over-selection, that's why! Name calling and general hysteria is not that impressive, neither is sticking your head in the sand when new information is available. You have well illustrated the uniformed fervor and inflexibility of those who support the destructive practice of over-selection. Twenty or thirty years from now, you will be remembered as having been dogmatic and shortsighted. I only hope that someone within the breed wakes up, speaks up, and gets a professional second opinion on this issue. It may interest you to know that many Universities publish on the Internet, and they're telling us to avoid over-selection. Ruthie, nw mt US
Burning question for Ruthie
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 8/1/05 7:34:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > In reading the Minutes in the spring issue of the Fjord Herald I came > across > an item that galvanized my unbridled interest. It says, "Evaluation-the > board > discussed a member's proposal that every stallion be evaluated" ..and went > on > to say that the BOD tabled the subject for "further study." Well, following > a > week of excitement management, expletives deleted, I think I am ready to > offer > civil comment. > > > > I protest this proposal on solid scientific information. Breeding the > best-to-best has historically been a method of consistently producing > handsome > horses for profit, but "HISTORY" it is. Currently, this best-to-best popular > school of thought is considered to be outdated by conservational > geneticists, > and is commonly referred to as over-selection. A person who would suggest > any > program that limits stallions is out of touch with reality and research. > > Ruthie, I have been gritting my teeth for some time now after reading a number of your recent posts. However, this latest one has forced me out of the 'lurking shadows' and I am no longer willing to me a member of the 'silent majority'. In light of the fact that your above post so strongly denigrates our NFHR Evaluation program, I am finding it necessary to speak up in defense thereof and to correct some of your erroneous misstatements. Brian Jensen has referred to me as the 'tell it like it is, Dr. Gayle (Phil) of the Fjord world'. Of that, I will plead guilty. The question that has been plaguing me is - WHY are you so bent on criticizing, terrorizing (Osama Bin Bushnell?) this program? I was a member of the original evaluation committee that put this program together on behalf of Fjords and their owners. I am here to tell you that that was no small task and it took years of work by a number of very dedicated folks. I am also here to tell you that IT IS WORKING! Eleven years ago I put on the very first evaluation held in conjunction with the Libby show. At that point in time, most Fjord owners had no idea whether their Fjords were good quality or not. They just loved them to pieces, but had NO IDEA if their legs were straight, what a broken axis was, whether they were of good Fjord type, etc. Again, they just loved them to pieces. One of the goals of our evaluation system was to design an educational program for owners and breeders so that they could learn to discern good qualities from bad and therefore be able to make wiser decisions where breeding was concerned, i.e., breeding two crooked legged horses will likely produce yet another crooked legged offspring. Prior to the development of our evaluation program, I found mare owners' two primary criteria for choosing a stallion to breed to were, number one - that he was CLOSE and number two, that he was CHEAP. I can't tell you how tickled I was the first time a prospective buyer called and asked whether this horse had been evaluated! Knowledgeable buyers are now wanting hard copy proof when I tell them that this horse is a GOOD one. It IS working! One of my personal goals and one of my main reasons for dedicating so much time to the development of our program was so that 10 years down the road, we would be seeing better quality Fjords being produced. At several of the evaluations and clinics that I have attended (NOT just Libby), the evaluators have made mention publicly that they, too, are seeing a huge improvement across the board in QUALITY. It IS working! You mentioned that you had done an 'in depth study on the Internet regarding conservation, genetics, genetic drift,' etc. While there is, indeed, a wealth of information at our fingertips on the Internet, there is also a lot of crap out there and just because it is 'out there' or in print doesn't necessarily mean that it is right or factual. There are some key issues that you have failed to find on the Internet. Number one, Fjord people are different than any other group of 'main stream' breeders (QH, Paint, Arab, etc.) in that the majority are concerned with preserving the integrity and qualities of our breed. If that was not the case, we would be allowed to cross breed in pursuit of that almighty dollar. Fjord owners tend to be much more emotionally involved with their horses than 'main stream' breeders that I have met. To Fjord owners, their horses are not just dollar signs with hair and 4 legs. Another key issue that you failed to recognize is the fact that we are the only country in the world at this point in time, that is striving to preserve the draft body type. Yup, many of the European countries are, indeed, chasing the buck, breeding for what sells - lighter bone structure, riding type - sport horses - if you will. If you look through our record book, you will find a
