Re: [Flac-dev] Variable Bit Rate
Flac network streaming is tricky because of the way flac handles silence in audio, but it can be worked around with a few lines changed in libflac. I've recently developed some of the only software I know of that lets you simply stream native flac from computer to computer, up to 8 channels. Its still highly alpha and Linux/Jack only. https://github.com/oneman/jack-network-port https://github.com/oneman/jack-network-port-David Krad Radio On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Dennis Brunnenmeyer denn...@chronometrics.com wrote: Brian... You've been both polite and helpful. Thanks. I do understand the dimensional nature of images and sound, though I admittedly glossed over the details while trying to draw attention to time rather than spatial artifacts. What I was looking for was confirmation that a properly designed application would decode FLAC without temporal issues. I believe you've made that perfectly clear. Am I right in assuming that in order to deal with potential latency issues, an application needs a sufficiently large FIFO buffer as well as the proper decoder? Dennis... -- On 5/23/2011 11:57 AM, Brian Willoughby wrote: On May 23, 2011, at 11:35, Dennis Brunnenmeyer wrote: I'm well aware how compression works. But images and document files do not depend on the relative timing of the data to reproduce themselves. They are in essence only two-dimensional in space, whereas the data in a sound file is time-dependent. Images are three-dimensional or maybe five-dimensional, mathematically, because the pixel value at each two-dimension point can have any value (monochrome) or color (three-dimensional RGB). Documents and sound files are two dimensional. You cannot change the position or value of a character in a text file without losing information. The key point here is that the timing you refer to in a sound file is not really so special. It is merely another dimension of the data. It is preserved in FLAC. Of the various methods for drawing sound files on the screen, they are all at least two-dimensional, if not more, which should be a clue that sound files are two-dimensional. The question really has more to do with the decoded FLAC stream output, which I presume is a linear PCM file, e.g. WAV. If FLAC is lossless and created from an original CBR WAV file, is is true that the decoded output is also CBR when played? That is, WAV in = WAV out, where both are CBR? Yes, an uncompressed sound file is CBR, unless you're talking about LDPCM. FLAC is compressed, though, and thus it must be VBR in its compressed form. The Variable in VBR ranges anywhere from slightly above the CBR of uncompressed audio (including overhead) to approximately half that rate (on average) or even sometimes lower. Thanks for any insights on this matter. I've been told that because a FLAC stream from a server to an application is VBR, that certain transients are not handled correctly, like the ringing of bells. If this were true, FLAC would not be lossless in this application. You have been told wrong. If such things happen with streamed FLAC, then there is a flaw in the streaming software. One thing to keep in mind is that a VBR format like FLAC requires latency when streaming. If the streaming software is not designed with adequate latency, then you could have artifacts when the data does not appear in time. But that is not the fault of the format, but rather that the playback is trying to get ahead of the format - which is impossible. Brian Willoughby Sound Consulting -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Idea to possibly improve flac?
Its really sad to hear thats happening but even more sad is the fact that flac is becoming a very common format for music on the interweb whilst at the same time the development has ceased. I've found some severe issues with OggFLAC that essentially make it a useless format for streaming, no one cared. -David Listener of many flacs On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Jørgen Vigdal jor...@anion.no wrote: Hi folks! Due to the fact that more and more users increasingly use MP3 320kbps as their source for encoding music, and publish it as flac files, I suggest that something is done in the flac encoder to possible avoid this. My idea is kinda easy/stupid, but might work; Implement a function that use a FFT to check if the input has frequencies 16kHz, and informs the user that the file would not be encoded unless a -force parameter is specified (or at least ask the user if he or she want to do this :) ) Hopefully, this will reduce the number of files released on the internet, re-encoded from a lossy file format. Unfortunately, many users avoid using flac, because they think the encoder is lossy due to the poor sound on some files released. Thanks in advance. Sincerely, Jørgen Vigdal jor...@anion.no Phone: +47 91320132 jorgenvigdal.com ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Idea to possibly improve flac?
I'd like to express a few things whilst I have the ear atleast a few folks. There once was a program called oddcast, and then edcast that you could use on linux to broadcast an OggFLAC encoded audio stream from jack. Sounds like something many folks would be interested in doing, but I haven't heard to much of a peep about it. At any rate, it had a a few issues legally and technical problems broadcasting an OggFLAC stream ( again related to periods of silence in the stream). So edcast is officialy dead now. But now it is an undead zombie! I talked to the original developer ( Ed ), then removed the legally questionable parts (and windows support), and fixed some issues with vorbis and oggflac encoding, and I even added support for 24bit flac. I'm probably the only guy in the universe listening to streaming 24bit audio, but if anyone wants to join me the code is located here: https://github.com/oneman/edcast2_jack Cheers, -D On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:19 PM, David Richards raw...@gmail.com wrote: I might be able to look into this soon, I actually got my mother a squeezebox boom for xmas, but I have no experience with the device, other than initial set up and hearing it go. My choice of the word useless was deliberate to get folks rawled up, and it worked! :D It doesn't make it entirely useless, just unreliable and inconsistent. If they are using the code from the main flac branch unmodified then I'm sure the device is hitting these bugs. There is different bugs in the encoding and decoding side of things, and also in the ogg packaging layer. All of this is related to periods of silence in the stream of sound. -D On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 4:01 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:56 PM, David Richards raw...@gmail.com wrote: Its really sad to hear thats happening but even more sad is the fact that flac is becoming a very common format for music on the interweb whilst at the same time the development has ceased. I've found some severe issues with OggFLAC that essentially make it a useless format for streaming, no one cared. could have fooled slimdevices/logitech, which sends FLAC to all their boxes. ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Idea to possibly improve flac?
to make a single change to the FLAC sources? While I'm writing, I also want to respond to the question about how to change FLAC so that all of the third party tools pick up the change. Well, I don't think that is possible. Many tools run the command-line flac utility behind the scenes. Others use the FLAC library directly. The problem is that both of them often run with out of date versions of the FLAC code, so no matter which way they incorporate the official FLAC sources, you cannot make them update to your anti-MP3 version. On that last note, I want to encourage you to experiment and have fun trying to create an MP3 detector that could warn users about quality issues. However, I believe it is extremely unlikely that you would ever be successful in getting your code into the official FLAC sources. This kind of change has nothing to do with the official FLAC format, and thus I doubt there would be any professional interest in changing things just for the sake of change or newness. Brian Willoughby Sound Consultinf On Jan 7, 2011, at 12:56, David Richards wrote: Its really sad to hear thats happening but even more sad is the fact that flac is becoming a very common format for music on the interweb whilst at the same time the development has ceased. I've found some severe issues with OggFLAC that essentially make it a useless format for streaming, no one cared. On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Jørgen Vigdal jor...@anion.no wrote: Due to the fact that more and more users increasingly use MP3 320kbps as their source for encoding music, and publish it as flac files, I suggest that something is done in the flac encoder to possible avoid this. My idea is kinda easy/stupid, but might work; Implement a function that use a FFT to check if the input has frequencies 16kHz, and informs the user that the file would not be encoded unless a -force parameter is specified (or at least ask the user if he or she want to do this :) ) Hopefully, this will reduce the number of files released on the internet, re-encoded from a lossy file format. Unfortunately, many users avoid using flac, because they think the encoder is lossy due to the poor sound on some files released. ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Indexed FLAC file?
Probably what you want is a media player software that turns your file structure into a database, you won't have to spend so much time dealing with the tedium aspects of navigating the structure that way... However, I believe you could create such a file with MKV which can hold multiple tracks of flac AFAIK. I'd be curious to hear back if you try that specifically. Probably no normal music player will deal with mkv, but if your this into it you could develop your own.. ( if you wanted to look into a custom media player for option number one, take a look at xmms2 ) -David On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:53 PM, George Barton crashpu...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I have a very large music collection that I keep on a portable hard drive (to plug in to car USB, carry with when I'm at my office, etc). All but a few dozen files are part of an album, and not a single audio file. This translates to an insane amount of files stored on my hard drive. I am very strict about how I label and file my media (I loathe unlabeled audio tracks), but even so it is very tedious at times to navigate this file structure, and takes a long time to load in my car. I have seen other file formats (specifically one proprietary audio book format) that supported indexing, and think it would be a great feature to add to FLAC. Example... Instead of having: \Dark Side of the Moon 01 - Speak to Me.FLAC 02 - Breathe.FLAC 03 - On the Run.FLAC ... Like a CD, you would have: Dark Side of the Moon.FLAC -01 - Speak to Me -02 - Breathe -03 - On the Run ... It seems to me that a .cue (or something similar) file could be appended to the FLAC file, and the ID tags modified and merged to reflect the indexes. Any newer program/hardware could take full advantage of the indexes, and any older program/hardware would simply see the FLAC file. I can see one major disadvantage. It would be more difficult to place a full playlist in shuffle mode without the program/hardware creating a master index detailing the contents of each file. However, many computer-based media players already do this. I'm not very (any) good (at all) at coding, or I would have a go at creating this. Just a thought... ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Idea to possibly improve flac?
I think it should just have an arm reach out of the computer monitor and hit them on the head with a bat. ( A nerf bat of course ) In all honesty, its only giving the codec a bad name to people who didn't bother to even learn about it for one second. Setting these kind of people strait is a lifes work for many a thinking man, but it is not my battle. -David On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Markus Ewald cy...@nuclex.org wrote: On 1/7/2011 11:42 PM, Jørgen Vigdal wrote: Hi Brian. I also agree with you on these points you mention. If you guys are familiar on how the piracy groups work on the internet, you are aware that they have releases with their names on it. In the piracy scene, some groups are competing on getting the first release out, and could only be beaten by another group releasing another higher quality release. Some groups (or even individuals) are releasing their stuff that is being ripped off another release, and they transcode the original release (mp3 320kbps for example) to a flac release (that really isn't a flac). Some of these groups or individuals are young people, tinking that they know everything. My idea was based on this. It would be fun stopping this, and also, as you mention in your answer, having fun and experimenting with the flac code. ... that really sucks. Pirates giving a genuinely great codec a bad name because of the way their ecosystem promotes treachery. Though I wonder if they wouldn't self-regulate by requiring EAC .logs or something like that? I think an simple tool that is run on existing FLAC files and gives a clear good/bad answer (perhaps with a probability to remain fair) could spread like wildfire amongst audiophiles if publicized in the right channels. Thanks, J. -Markus- ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Synchronizing a streaming client to the server Was: Idea to possibly improve flac?
Give it a go, I await your results :D On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 12:20 AM, Brian Willoughby bri...@sounds.wa.com wrote: Well, in that light, I suppose it isn't reasonable to expect people to wait 23 seconds for their internet streaming broadcast to start playing. Then again, maybe it could be sold as the price for lossless streaming! ;-) Seriously, though, what about if the Ogg page is not part of the picture? i.e., what about just using pure FLAC and IP? Brian Willoughby Sound Consulting On Jan 7, 2011, at 20:49, David Richards wrote: The actual non made up number for 44100 is 23 seconds. :D 4096 samples, 254 packets in an ogg page. ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
