Re: [flac-dev] flac-dev Digest, Vol 91, Issue 4
Perhaps update the codec to handle 32 bit files while remaining the same otherwise? Dennis Brunnenmeyer FULL FIDELITY MUSIC On 6/19/2012 12:00 PM, flac-dev-requ...@xiph.org wrote: Send flac-dev mailing list submissions to flac-dev@xiph.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to flac-dev-requ...@xiph.org You can reach the person managing the list at flac-dev-ow...@xiph.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of flac-dev digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Next generation WebM and FLAC (James Haigh) 2. Re: Next generation WebM and FLAC (Ralph Giles) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 18:08:27 +0100 From: James Haigh Subject: [flac-dev] Next generation WebM and FLAC To: flac-dev@xiph.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hello, I have proposed to WebM to use FLAC in a future version. Since FLAC was designed a decade ago, I was wondering if there were any new compression techniques that FLAC could use in a new version to improve compression ratios. If so, it would be worth synchronising with WebM for compatibility reasons. Here's the WebM discussion: https://groups.google.com/a/webmproject.org/group/webm-discuss/browse_thread/thread/42fd53c71b2bcc74 Best regards, James Haigh. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/flac-dev/attachments/20120619/a226dda6/attachment.html -- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 10:18:51 -0700 From: Ralph Giles Subject: Re: [flac-dev] Next generation WebM and FLAC To: James Haigh Cc: flac-dev@xiph.org Message-ID:<4fe0b47b.10...@thaumas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 12-06-19 10:08 AM, James Haigh wrote: I have proposed to WebM to use FLAC in a future version. Since FLAC was designed a decade ago, I was wondering if there were any new compression techniques that FLAC could use in a new version to improve compression ratios. The short answer is yes, but for it to be work promoting a new standard, you really want to do *significantly* better than flac, like lossless at half the file size. That's a lot harder than an extra 10% or 20% compression. A great research project, in other words, but I think we'd do better to concentrate resources on improving support for the existing flac format which is very widely adopted. -r -- ___ flac-dev mailing list flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev End of flac-dev Digest, Vol 91, Issue 4 *** ___ flac-dev mailing list flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Variable Bit Rate
Brian... You've been both polite and helpful. Thanks. I do understand the dimensional nature of images and sound, though I admittedly glossed over the details while trying to draw attention to time rather than spatial artifacts. What I was looking for was confirmation that a properly designed application would decode FLAC without temporal issues. I believe you've made that perfectly clear. Am I right in assuming that in order to deal with potential latency issues, an application needs a sufficiently large FIFO buffer as well as the proper decoder? Dennis... On 5/23/2011 11:57 AM, Brian Willoughby wrote: On May 23, 2011, at 11:35, Dennis Brunnenmeyer wrote: I'm well aware how compression works. But images and document files do not depend on the relative timing of the data to reproduce themselves. They are in essence only two-dimensional in space, whereas the data in a sound file is time-dependent. Images are three-dimensional or maybe five-dimensional, mathematically, because the pixel value at each two-dimension point can have any value (monochrome) or color (three-dimensional RGB). Documents and sound files are two dimensional. You cannot change the position or value of a character in a text file without losing information. The key point here is that the timing you refer to in a sound file is not really so special. It is merely another dimension of the data. It is preserved in FLAC. Of the various methods for drawing sound files on the screen, they are all at least two-dimensional, if not more, which should be a clue that sound files are two-dimensional. The question really has more to do with the decoded FLAC stream output, which I presume is a linear PCM file, e.g. WAV. If FLAC is lossless and created from an original CBR WAV file, is is true that the decoded output is also CBR when played? That is, WAV in = WAV out, where both are CBR? Yes, an uncompressed sound file is CBR, unless you're talking about LDPCM. FLAC is compressed, though, and thus it must be VBR in its compressed form. The Variable in VBR ranges anywhere from slightly above the CBR of uncompressed audio (including overhead) to approximately half that rate (on average) or even sometimes lower. Thanks for any insights on this matter. I've been told that because a FLAC stream from a server to an application is VBR, that certain transients are not handled correctly, like the ringing of bells. If this were true, FLAC would not be lossless in this application. You have been told wrong. If such things happen with streamed FLAC, then there is a flaw in the streaming software. One thing to keep in mind is that a VBR format like FLAC requires latency when streaming. If the streaming software is not designed with adequate latency, then you could have artifacts when the data does not appear in time. But that is not the fault of the format, but rather that the playback is trying to get ahead of the format - which is impossible. Brian Willoughby Sound Consulting -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Variable Bit Rate
My question is based on temporal considerations. Given a WAV file converted to FLAC and then decoded to WAV, is it possible for artifacts to be introduced? I've been told that FLAC files, when played back into a high-quality sound system, fail to properly reproduce certain kinds of sounds, like ringing bells or the 'clang' of a triangle. If this were the case, then FLAC would not be lossless in a dynamic sense. As a proponent of FLAC for lossless music storage on a server, this question is important to convincing others that FLAC accurately reproduces the original WAV or PCM file. Dennis... On 5/23/2011 10:37 AM, Tyler Eaves wrote: FLAC is variable bitrate, but the bitrate is determined by how efficiently the data can be compressed while maintaining 100% data integrity. On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Dennis Brunnenmeyer wrote: Is FLAC a variable bit rate format when streamed? If so, how can it be truly lossless? -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
Re: [Flac-dev] Variable Bit Rate
I'm well aware how compression works. But images and document files do not depend on the relative timing of the data to reproduce themselves. They are in essence only two-dimensional in space, whereas the data in a sound file is time-dependent. The question really has more to do with the decoded FLAC stream output, which I presume is a linear PCM file, e.g. WAV. If FLAC is lossless and created from an original CBR WAV file, is is true that the decoded output is also CBR when played? That is, WAV in = WAV out, where both are CBR? Thanks for any insights on this matter. I've been told that because a FLAC stream from a server to an application is VBR, that certain transients are not handled correctly, like the ringing of bells. If this were true, FLAC would not be lossless in this application. Dennis... On 5/23/2011 10:58 AM, Masklinn wrote: On 2011-05-23, at 19:26 , Dennis Brunnenmeyer wrote: Is FLAC a variable bit rate format when streamed? If so, how can it be truly lossless? The same way zip and PNG compression are truly lossless: something can take more space than the information it contains needs. For instance, take a 1024*1024 completely white bitmap. Your bitmap file is 1MB (1048576 bytes). A good PNG compressor can get it to 200 bytes (this is not a typo: I have a completely white 1024*1024 PNG file in 222 bytes). Well it's the same with sound (a 5mn track with no sound whatsoever contains less information than "Nun seh' ich wohl, warum so dunkle Flammen"). That's also why the format can't help but be VBR: different pieces of sound contain different amounts of information per second, and therefore have different compression ratio (and compression ratios can --- very rarely --- go above even 1: white noise is completely incompressible, when you add FLAC metadata you end up with a FLAC file bigger than the source WAV) -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
[Flac-dev] Variable Bit Rate
Is FLAC a variable bit rate format when streamed? If so, how can it be truly lossless? -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
[Flac-dev] Extended Vorbis Comments
Hi... Somewhere I thought I saw a list of proposed extensions to the small set of pre-defined vorbis comments. If adopted, would these become part of the FLAC standard, or would they stand alone as recommended practice. I don't recall what was on the list that I saw, but ALBUMARTIST should be on it if it isn't already there. Dennis... -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
[Flac-dev] PDF File in FLAC?
Hi... Is there any possibility of including a PDF file (A complete set of liner notes in a single multi-page document, for example.) in a FLAC file? If so, what needs to be done, if anything, to do so? Dennis... -- Dennis Brunnenmeyer Director of Engineering CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS 15019 Rattlesnake Road Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710 Office: 1 (530) 477-9015 Mobile: 1 (530) 320-9025 eMail: dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html <http://www.chronometrics.com/crs/index.html> ___ Flac-dev mailing list Flac-dev@xiph.org http://lists.xiph.org/mailman/listinfo/flac-dev
