Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Guns don't kill people, people kill people, right? The hammer/carpenter brush/painter car/driver analog is endlessly debatable. I belong to a school of thought that believes putting a gun in the hand of a person makes him a far more viable killer than one without the gun. I think people have a natural zest for pushing the button, probably all buttons. At once. Again and again. I don't have a lot of faith in human beings i guess ;) This thread is pretty OT anyway, and it'll go nowhere. At the very least i've shouted at you a bit ;) - Andreas ryanm wrote: Similarly, when GUI's came out, the command line people said the old way was better. Are you trying to tell me it isn't? ;-) I guess my bottom line is that more powerful tools for the designer is never a bad thing. At the end of the day bad designers will be punished, and good designers will be rewarded. You cant blame the hammer, you must blame the carpenter. Unfortunately, more often than not, bad design is being praised (because it's "new", even though it's not, and "pretty", even though it often isn't) and good design is being ignored or denigrated as "old" and "boring". I used a mouse on my C64 with a GEOS desktop back in '86 and thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately, the point-and-click paradigm hasn't been improved much in intervening years. The web isn't what I would call a huge regression, but it certainly hasn't pushed usability forward much. ryanm ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Similarly, when GUI's came out, the command line people said the old way was better. Are you trying to tell me it isn't? ;-) I guess my bottom line is that more powerful tools for the designer is never a bad thing. At the end of the day bad designers will be punished, and good designers will be rewarded. You cant blame the hammer, you must blame the carpenter. Unfortunately, more often than not, bad design is being praised (because it's "new", even though it's not, and "pretty", even though it often isn't) and good design is being ignored or denigrated as "old" and "boring". I used a mouse on my C64 with a GEOS desktop back in '86 and thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread. Unfortunately, the point-and-click paradigm hasn't been improved much in intervening years. The web isn't what I would call a huge regression, but it certainly hasn't pushed usability forward much. ryanm ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
The most important metric in measuring a user interface is money. Page based systems where every action loads a new page costs money. This is because every new page you require someone to load you loose approximately 50% of your audience. For most people, lots of page loads are painful. Now, you can argue that AJAX fixes that, but the problem is that building AJAX apps for most developers requires an enormous amount of work. And because the tools are not object oriented and, well really just not good, it is very difficult to implement. Now if your argument against flex and components is that you should keep the sharp tools from the children because they will hurt themselves I have to laugh. I have been dealt with several tool design upgrades in my life. And every time, there are people agressively arguing that "the old way is better". When desktop publishing came out, old school designers said it would hurt the industry because it would allow people to make "bad designs". Similarly, when GUI's came out, the command line people said the old way was better. The bottom line is that good design is still critical. But arguing that people cant understand tabs, windows, menus, and so we should stick with basic html designs is, to me, silly. To me, the web has regressed software design over the last 10 years. Our interface taste and skills have attrophied. The current state of app based web design is laughable. I guess my bottom line is that more powerful tools for the designer is never a bad thing. At the end of the day bad designers will be punished, and good designers will be rewarded. You cant blame the hammer, you must blame the carpenter. Regards Hank On 10/19/05, Andreas Rønning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You gotta understand my point of view here: I'm doing "customer support" > for my parents almost every week to get them around interface issues. I > know we're all very hip and young people here, but i sympathize very > much with the inexperienced end user. JS here and whatnot there, what > we're doing by leaping ahead instead of ambling ahead is leaving people > behind. I know for my sister, who is accustomed to a user interface not > necessarily breaking her computer if it isn't super obvious and has lots > more functionality, slight deviations from what she's used to is no big > deal, but my mom is deathly afraid of screwing up her computer. > > We have components that mimic desktop applications and that's fine and > all, but you're forgetting that a large percentage of end users don't > regularly use an extensive range of desktop applications. For my > parents, that's email, word and firefox for my mom and the same + > photoshop and form*Z for my dad. They are also mac users. Flash UI > components mimic a kind of general idea of what a typical UI looks like, > but deploying a UI on windows, mac and linux platforms with a general > similarity is not a step towards unification or whatever, it's more like > defining a new design paradigm for users to learn. > The perfect UI component should completely mimic the OS it runs on, and > if "Flex 5" generates interfaces based on OS UI components that not only > mimic but actually duplicates the native functionality of the OS the > application is executed on, it'd be a huge step in the right direction. > > I'm not a fan of designers that think they can do better than what has > been ingrained in culture through time. I'm not saying designs that stem > from Mosaiq are still the way to go with web browsers, but i'm saying > the end user has an understanding for that design that i don't think a > prospective UI designer should take lightly. > > A ton of mac users haven't touched Office. A ton of Windows users never > touched a tabbed interface. > I know we can't always go for the lowest common denominator, but taking > a firm stance in web browser UI design methodology is not a bad idea, > and this crazy fear of page reloads strikes me as somewhat illogical > from a usability point of view. > > You keep saying Flex delivers easy to comprehend content, but do you > base that in Macromedia's research or on your own? In my experience as a > designer, developer and end user, i haven't seen a single example of a > flash driven RIA that improved anything, not in usability, and not > visually (unless you count animation an improvement). > > When public trust in Flash grows and perhaps we see web browsers that > attempt new methods of navigation (if ever), and the general movement of > the web is moving in a "richer" direction, i'll be first in line. Until > then, i don't understand why such staples as web shop solutions (add to > shopping basket. Keep shopping / Proceed to checkout. What's not to > understand) need to be somehow rethought because someone thought a page > reload was scary, and wind up alienating more than it helps. > > Then again maybe (probably) i'm just tootin my horn for no reason. I'm > just worried we might forget the end user that didn't
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Hi Andreas, Yes I follow your gist. But what you are arguing for is simple design and ering on the side of caution, nothing more, nothing that I would dissagree with either, but having little relation to the Ajax vs Flash choice. Sure Flash gives you plenty of rope to hang yourself with, but it also enables working ideas that won't be achieveable otherwise. Good usability designers don't just use one operating system and don't limit their thinking to what they have seen on a computer. They think about car dashboards and apple slicers and the pencil as much as interface ideas. Primarily they do a lot of testing. My experience is similar to both yours and your web designers, but I never forget the end user. My whole reason for developing is to see the end user smile. Try creating educational software with Ajax and the Dom, it's painfull and it won't work on some browsers. It gets in the way of user smiles when it doesn't work and you need to find out which subversion of what browser they are using in order to even fix the problem. But if the web worked well, nobody would be interested in using either Flash or Ajax for applications. The truth is it doesn't. During my reply to your last rant I used my mouse's scrollbar and it flew me right out of gmail. whoosh. It was funny but totally mystified me. Beta software. Ajax software, some nice ideas, some bad ideas, generally immature. Lets talk about the back button. Do you think users really know how the back button works? I once created a training application for state workers on how to use a browser and I feel pretty confident saying the back button was broken long before Flash ever entered the equation. It's a list that you can travel backward and forward except that the forward part dissapears on you now and again when you click on a link and the backward part can put you in a seemingly endless loop depending on your sequence of clicks. Talk about a computer scientists notion of how navigation should work. It's not how users think. Even users who tell you that they know how it works, when tested are easily mystified by how it really works. GIve users an application where they can press "save" and give their state a name that they can load later and they understand it. Why has tabed browsing become so popular? Because in order for the back button to really work you need to be able to have more than one instance of the browser window to properly navigate the web. So knowledgable users would have a List of links in front of them and they would open a new browser instance for each one, knowing that it might become impossible or take 100 clicks after browsing a sites content, to get back to where they are. Tabbed browsing just made this more convienient. But it is already broken and has been for a dozen years and it needs to be improved further. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
You gotta understand my point of view here: I'm doing "customer support" for my parents almost every week to get them around interface issues. I know we're all very hip and young people here, but i sympathize very much with the inexperienced end user. JS here and whatnot there, what we're doing by leaping ahead instead of ambling ahead is leaving people behind. I know for my sister, who is accustomed to a user interface not necessarily breaking her computer if it isn't super obvious and has lots more functionality, slight deviations from what she's used to is no big deal, but my mom is deathly afraid of screwing up her computer. We have components that mimic desktop applications and that's fine and all, but you're forgetting that a large percentage of end users don't regularly use an extensive range of desktop applications. For my parents, that's email, word and firefox for my mom and the same + photoshop and form*Z for my dad. They are also mac users. Flash UI components mimic a kind of general idea of what a typical UI looks like, but deploying a UI on windows, mac and linux platforms with a general similarity is not a step towards unification or whatever, it's more like defining a new design paradigm for users to learn. The perfect UI component should completely mimic the OS it runs on, and if "Flex 5" generates interfaces based on OS UI components that not only mimic but actually duplicates the native functionality of the OS the application is executed on, it'd be a huge step in the right direction. I'm not a fan of designers that think they can do better than what has been ingrained in culture through time. I'm not saying designs that stem from Mosaiq are still the way to go with web browsers, but i'm saying the end user has an understanding for that design that i don't think a prospective UI designer should take lightly. A ton of mac users haven't touched Office. A ton of Windows users never touched a tabbed interface. I know we can't always go for the lowest common denominator, but taking a firm stance in web browser UI design methodology is not a bad idea, and this crazy fear of page reloads strikes me as somewhat illogical from a usability point of view. You keep saying Flex delivers easy to comprehend content, but do you base that in Macromedia's research or on your own? In my experience as a designer, developer and end user, i haven't seen a single example of a flash driven RIA that improved anything, not in usability, and not visually (unless you count animation an improvement). When public trust in Flash grows and perhaps we see web browsers that attempt new methods of navigation (if ever), and the general movement of the web is moving in a "richer" direction, i'll be first in line. Until then, i don't understand why such staples as web shop solutions (add to shopping basket. Keep shopping / Proceed to checkout. What's not to understand) need to be somehow rethought because someone thought a page reload was scary, and wind up alienating more than it helps. Then again maybe (probably) i'm just tootin my horn for no reason. I'm just worried we might forget the end user that didn't get it. - Andreas Stan Vassilev wrote: Ajax mimics better web pages since it uses same technology (HTML) indeed, it's just about the only way it can go (unless you go to certain lengths to reinvent the GUI with CSS tricks and images). Flash doesn't need to mimic web pages since it can simply do better. It mimics full-blown desktop application interface, which is also something people are used to. We have buttons, checkboxes, scrollbars, progress bars. Can you say with a straight face this is incredibly hard for a casual user to grasp :)? And the accordion - it's something you can see in Office and plenty of other places, it's far from being new weird kind of component noone ever used. And further, we have tabs, windows, panels and what not, accordion is not forced on anyone. One of the reasons Macromedia got on the "components" bandwagon in first place was more consistent desktop-like experience. This was early in the V.1 framework when they were still experimenting but trying to bring some consistency to Flash interfaces instead of forcing Flash developers to reinvent the basic stuff as simple buttons with every SWF they make. Flex 2 Framework is advanced, consistent, performant framework which delivers easy to comprehend GUI targeted at business applications and widely deployed consumer applications. As such, it makes total sense to me. Not long time ago, the widely spread opinion by "experts" and alike was that JS is a terrible terrible way to use for any serious widely deployed app. It took Google and its JS gadgets to convince web application developers world-wide that *actually*, JS doesn't suck and maybe there's some value it can add to web apps. Now virtually any web e-mail provider one could care for rewrites their web mail app
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Ajax mimics better web pages since it uses same technology (HTML) indeed, it's just about the only way it can go (unless you go to certain lengths to reinvent the GUI with CSS tricks and images). Flash doesn't need to mimic web pages since it can simply do better. It mimics full-blown desktop application interface, which is also something people are used to. We have buttons, checkboxes, scrollbars, progress bars. Can you say with a straight face this is incredibly hard for a casual user to grasp :)? And the accordion - it's something you can see in Office and plenty of other places, it's far from being new weird kind of component noone ever used. And further, we have tabs, windows, panels and what not, accordion is not forced on anyone. One of the reasons Macromedia got on the "components" bandwagon in first place was more consistent desktop-like experience. This was early in the V.1 framework when they were still experimenting but trying to bring some consistency to Flash interfaces instead of forcing Flash developers to reinvent the basic stuff as simple buttons with every SWF they make. Flex 2 Framework is advanced, consistent, performant framework which delivers easy to comprehend GUI targeted at business applications and widely deployed consumer applications. As such, it makes total sense to me. Not long time ago, the widely spread opinion by "experts" and alike was that JS is a terrible terrible way to use for any serious widely deployed app. It took Google and its JS gadgets to convince web application developers world-wide that *actually*, JS doesn't suck and maybe there's some value it can add to web apps. Now virtually any web e-mail provider one could care for rewrites their web mail app to use JS and "AJAX". Now Flash meets the same skepticism by some folks as JS before. When Flex 2 final is out and big companies start using it and show there's nothing bad in rich internet apps, this "fear" of Flash will go away just like it happened with JS in web apps. Regards, Stan Vassilev I'm extremely jaded. I'm one of those guys that think Flash should stay the hell away from what already works on the web and rather add to it instead of restructure it. I think flash sites beyond the conceptual (ie. the Donnie Darko site for instance) are so deeply and profoundly annoying they're actually upsetting. In particular the sites that simply emulate what's already doable online but with some extra bells and whistles; ie the sites that don't even try to be special. I'm sure there's an enormous market out there for Flex, but i'm tempted to say ... ... ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Cortlandt Winters wrote: Andreas said This is just my relatively uninformed opinion however, i'd love to hear counterargumentation when it comes to the usability issue. Hi Andreas, I enjoyed your rant's but in the end they are reactionary nonsense. Usability doesn't depend on the technology. It depends on design. Silly bear! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders I disagree ;) I think usability depends largely on habit and familiarity, more so than design and "scholar" ideas of user friendliness. I believe conformity under the design paradigms of a given OS is what makes an application inherently user friendly. No matter of pointing arrows and step by step tutorials can shake the fact that pointing arrows and step by step tutorials were needed in the first place. I've read my share of books on usability, and i work primarily with web designers at the office who talk of nothing but usability. Their knowledge comes from god knows how many bouts of user feedback, testing and simple experience. My knowledge comes from building standalone applications that are cross platform, and thus don't really need to adhere to any OS interface paradigms beyond "click on stuff to do stuff". You could say they adhere to a UI design philosphy of familiarity, which plays on visual cues to give the user an inherent understanding of the functionality based on her experience with the framework UI of the platform (in this case the web browser). I on my hand adhere to a tactile UI design philosophy, which plays on natural action: Which is more intuitive for an "uninformed" user when asked to stack boxes? To press two buttons, or to drag box a on top of box b? However, whenever we've tried to couple these design philosophies, we run into issues such as back button incompatibility, or users becoming confused with regards to the flow of the website and the flow of the application embedded in the website. My last project, which i posted a crapload of photos of in the lounge recently, was a tablet pc driven multiuser game installation intended for school kids aged 13-15. We had a major issue deciding what was the intelligent approach to the solution: To make the interface as hands on and "Physical" as we could to play on the strengths of the stylus/tablet, which turned out to be a bad decision. We chose to implement hand writing based chat and a number of other click-drag-push-pull-tap functionality that we carefully thought out to adhere to our immediate sense of what the user logically would attempt to do in the given situation, but it ultimately backfired on us. Kids were looking for elements they knew from their own PCs, kids with "computer experience" (if that's even a thing today) would always try and take charge, or would be put in charge by those less sure of themselves, and since we had gone to such lengths to simplify and streamline the interface, we alienated them. Those that didn't know were overriden by those that thought they knew, and those that thought they knew were too jaded to simply accept how the interface actually worked. For a game designed to be played *once* by a given group of individuals over a period of 2 hours, this wasn't really what we wanted to do: We had effectively pulled out the technical common ground from under their feet. The result was kids that were really intrigued by the technology and that really caught on to it near the end, but who had spent the first hour merely getting around the edges of it. For a game, you don't want to fight the interface, you want to play. My boss thinks it was a resounding success, i think it was a painful lesson: Don't screw with the wheel: They know how the wheel works, don't make it octagonal, don't turn it into a ball or a hovering disc of power or whatever. They know the wheel turns, so let them turn the wheel if it reaches the same end. I like the idea of creative and innovative interfaces, i really do. I'd go as far as to say it's something i burn for, it's a lot of fun to work with. Unfortunately, i'm a developer. So are you guys. It's so easy to forget the end user, and in my own experience with focus testing, often users who are negative are forgotten and users who are merely satisfied or slightly positive are seen as proof of concept. I know this has become more of a rant than anything, but i think dramatically altering the flow of a website is a concept i hope people aren't taking lightly in spite of the exciting technologies. I know we hate conformity, but in UI design, i think you could almost call it a virtue. I'm a reactionary nonsesical buffoon quite often, but this isn't a new discussion to me and it's something that has always bugged me with Flash development. I think there's a pretty stark limit to how far we can go "cooling up" a site, and
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
> Andreas said > This is just my relatively uninformed opinion however, i'd love to hear > counterargumentation when it comes to the usability issue. Hi Andreas, I enjoyed your rant's but in the end they are reactionary nonsense. Usability doesn't depend on the technology. It depends on design. Silly bear! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
enter is around the creation of very rich interactive content. The Flex product line includes an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) for building application front ends. The development metaphor is tag and code oriented, and it is highly approachable by folks with a computer science, object oriented programming, Java/JSP/CF/ASP.NET, or enterprise application development background who may be working with designers as well. Its design center is around the creation of rich internet applications with dynamic data coming from a back end data source. The two overlap a bit--both output SWFs and Flash Professional can indeed be used to create Rich Internet Applications. The difference is the design center and focus of the two product lines. The two can also work together---many people creating applications with Flex also use Flash to create assets that they bring into the Flex application. It is important to note that the Flex product line is in the beginning of a major transition right now (see the alpha builds at labs.macromedia.com). Paul wrote: "I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff." I think that is almost definitely the right choice based on the limited info you provide: * You are creating a large "website". Generally, if someone is creating a "site" I'd steer them to Flash. If you had written that you were creating a large "application" my first inclination would be to suggest using Flex. (Yes, I know, it is a blurry line between a "site" and an "application" but I am trying to be helpful based on limited info and the most basic differentiation between the products.) Regards, David Macromedia -----Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Rønning Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:25 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. - Andreas Andreas Rønning wrote: Paul Steven wrote: Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program (whatever it was called)) Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems to be something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. If there is a better way to do things using a different application then I would really like to know. If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my question then please let me know. Thanks in advance. Paul ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed to YET A
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
eer them to Flash. If you had written that you were creating a large "application" my first inclination would be to suggest using Flex. (Yes, I know, it is a blurry line between a "site" and an "application" but I am trying to be helpful based on limited info and the most basic differentiation between the products.) Regards, David Macromedia -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andreas Rønning Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:25 AM To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. - Andreas Andreas Rønning wrote: Paul Steven wrote: Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program (whatever it was called)) Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems to be something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. If there is a better way to do things using a different application then I would really like to know. If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my question then please let me know. Thanks in advance. Paul ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed to YET ANOTHER set of buttons and sliders. Company line: "The Flex product line delivers a standards-based programming methodology and runtime services for developing and deploying the presentation tier of applications that combine the richness of the desktop with the reach of the web: Rich Internet Applications." What the hell does that mean, other than an attempt to get you to throw cash at them for the sake of cool. This reads to me like another ColdFusion, a syntax so contrived and painful it effectively locks the CFM developer to specialise in a platform that offers nothing to the greater good. When i do AS, that same script can be moved to php and java, even c++ and c# with little alteration. CFM syntax is an abomination. In some cases conformity is a good thing. Anyway, i digress. By "presentation tier" they mean the user interface. In a web application like google, this is the part where you put in the search parameters and press "search". In RIA terms, this means the part where you put in the search parameters should glow when you're typing, and have audible sound effects for each keypress, in addition to a happy fanfare and a fade transition when you hit "search". Even "richer", let'
RE: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Hi, > > With regards the website I am about to develop, it will > require user registration, progress monitoring and be > comprised primarily of interactive learning activities. Does > this sound like something Flex would be better suited for > than just Flash itself? > A) Make sure you keep in mind that Flex Builder 2 is in *alpha*. And this sounds short term. So keep your life simple and proceed with Flash for now, and when you have time start to experiment with Flex and for a next project you will be well informed. B) Based on your description Flex could be usefull here, but it doesn't sound obvious one way or another. With much eLearning kinds of content I expect Flash Professional will be the right choice. So this could be best done in Flash Professional or the two used together. I'd need to know more and more about your skills to say more, but it is also going to be a matter of taste..so try it out and let us know. HTH, David ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Thank you David for your reply. It is becoming clearer what Flex is all about and probably something I should be looking into as I have been using Macromedia Authorware, Director and Flash from a coding perspective for many years. With regards the website I am about to develop, it will require user registration, progress monitoring and be comprised primarily of interactive learning activities. Does this sound like something Flex would be better suited for than just Flash itself? Many thanks Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Mendels Sent: 19 October 2005 14:47 To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: RE: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? Hi, Andreas's info is dated...there is a lot of new news this week that changes much of what he said. Flex is a product line from Macromedia for building applications that run in the Flash Player. It includes a framework, an integrated development environment, and a server. (The server is not required, but adds value for data rich applications.) At a high level here is the way I think about it: The Flash Professional authoring tool is a rich visual environment for multimedia authoring. The development metaphor is based around a timeline, and it is highly approachable by folks with a design, video, or multimedia background. Its design center is around the creation of very rich interactive content. The Flex product line includes an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) for building application front ends. The development metaphor is tag and code oriented, and it is highly approachable by folks with a computer science, object oriented programming, Java/JSP/CF/ASP.NET, or enterprise application development background who may be working with designers as well. Its design center is around the creation of rich internet applications with dynamic data coming from a back end data source. The two overlap a bit--both output SWFs and Flash Professional can indeed be used to create Rich Internet Applications. The difference is the design center and focus of the two product lines. The two can also work together---many people creating applications with Flex also use Flash to create assets that they bring into the Flex application. It is important to note that the Flex product line is in the beginning of a major transition right now (see the alpha builds at labs.macromedia.com). Paul wrote: "I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff." I think that is almost definitely the right choice based on the limited info you provide: * You are creating a large "website". Generally, if someone is creating a "site" I'd steer them to Flash. If you had written that you were creating a large "application" my first inclination would be to suggest using Flex. (Yes, I know, it is a blurry line between a "site" and an "application" but I am trying to be helpful based on limited info and the most basic differentiation between the products.) Regards, David Macromedia > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Andreas Rønning > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:25 AM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? > > http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ > > Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. > Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. > > - Andreas > > Andreas Rønning wrote: > > > Paul Steven wrote: > > > >> Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs > >> and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself > to create > >> all my content because that was the only option I had > available to me > >> (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe > >> flash program (whatever it was called)) > >> > >> Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" > that seems > >> to be something to do with Flash development. I have > obviously had my > >> head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out > of nowhere > >> and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. > >> > >> So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and > for what > >> sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that > >> familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the > explanation in > >> laymans terms. > >> > >> I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was > >> planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create > >> Flash stuff. > >> > &
RE: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Hi, Andreas's info is dated...there is a lot of new news this week that changes much of what he said. Flex is a product line from Macromedia for building applications that run in the Flash Player. It includes a framework, an integrated development environment, and a server. (The server is not required, but adds value for data rich applications.) At a high level here is the way I think about it: The Flash Professional authoring tool is a rich visual environment for multimedia authoring. The development metaphor is based around a timeline, and it is highly approachable by folks with a design, video, or multimedia background. Its design center is around the creation of very rich interactive content. The Flex product line includes an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) for building application front ends. The development metaphor is tag and code oriented, and it is highly approachable by folks with a computer science, object oriented programming, Java/JSP/CF/ASP.NET, or enterprise application development background who may be working with designers as well. Its design center is around the creation of rich internet applications with dynamic data coming from a back end data source. The two overlap a bit--both output SWFs and Flash Professional can indeed be used to create Rich Internet Applications. The difference is the design center and focus of the two product lines. The two can also work together---many people creating applications with Flex also use Flash to create assets that they bring into the Flex application. It is important to note that the Flex product line is in the beginning of a major transition right now (see the alpha builds at labs.macromedia.com). Paul wrote: "I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff." I think that is almost definitely the right choice based on the limited info you provide: * You are creating a large "website". Generally, if someone is creating a "site" I'd steer them to Flash. If you had written that you were creating a large "application" my first inclination would be to suggest using Flex. (Yes, I know, it is a blurry line between a "site" and an "application" but I am trying to be helpful based on limited info and the most basic differentiation between the products.) Regards, David Macromedia > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf > Of Andreas Rønning > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:25 AM > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? > > http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ > > Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. > Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. > > - Andreas > > Andreas Rønning wrote: > > > Paul Steven wrote: > > > >> Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs > >> and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself > to create > >> all my content because that was the only option I had > available to me > >> (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe > >> flash program (whatever it was called)) > >> > >> Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" > that seems > >> to be something to do with Flash development. I have > obviously had my > >> head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out > of nowhere > >> and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. > >> > >> So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and > for what > >> sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that > >> familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the > explanation in > >> laymans terms. > >> > >> I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was > >> planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create > >> Flash stuff. > >> > >> If there is a better way to do things using a different > application > >> then I would really like to know. > >> > >> If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my > >> question then please let me know. > >> > >> Thanks in advance. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> ___ > >> Flashcoders mailing list > >> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > >> > >> > > RIA = fancy and completely useless
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Hi Paul, I have a draft document for the first chapter of a book I'm intending to write that includes a description of what Flex is. It might be more generic than what you want, but I can send it to you off list if you like. Spike On 10/19/05, Paul Steven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Thank you Andreas for a frank response > > I feel alot better not knowing anything about Flex now:) > > Cheers > > Paul > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andreas > Rønning > Sent: 19 October 2005 14:25 > To: Flashcoders mailing list > Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? > > > http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ > > Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. Keep your > bs filter in the "on" position though. > > - Andreas > > Andreas Rønning wrote: > > > Paul Steven wrote: > > > >> Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and > >> websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my > >> content because that was the only option I had available to me (with > the > >> exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program > >> (whatever it was called)) > >> > >> Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems > >> to be > >> something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head > >> in the > >> sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone > >> seems > >> pretty clued up on it. > >> > >> So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what > >> sort of > >> content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with > >> the > >> terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. > >> > >> I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was > >> planning on > >> just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. > >> > >> If there is a better way to do things using a different application > >> then I > >> would really like to know. > >> > >> If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my > >> question > >> then please let me know. > >> > >> Thanks in advance. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> ___ > >> Flashcoders mailing list > >> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com > >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders > >> > >> > > RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no > > end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that > > field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck > > all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean > > anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a > > dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it > > actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. > > > > In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets > > you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw > > components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy > > alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be > > handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a > > framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go > > bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give > > instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a > > lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed > > to YET ANOTHER set of buttons and sliders. > > > > Company line: "The Flex product line delivers a standards-based > > programming methodology and runtime services for developing and > > deploying the presentation tier of applications that combine the > > richness of the desktop with the reach of the web: Rich Internet > > Applications." > > > > What the hell does that mean, other than an attempt to get you to > > throw cash at them for the sake of cool. This reads to me like another > > ColdFusion, a syntax so contrived and painful it effectively locks the > > CFM developer to specialise in a platform that offers nothing to the > > greater good. When i do AS, that same script can be moved to
RE: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Thank you Andreas for a frank response I feel alot better not knowing anything about Flex now:) Cheers Paul -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andreas Rønning Sent: 19 October 2005 14:25 To: Flashcoders mailing list Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex? http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. - Andreas Andreas Rønning wrote: > Paul Steven wrote: > >> Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and >> websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my >> content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the >> exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program >> (whatever it was called)) >> >> Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems >> to be >> something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head >> in the >> sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone >> seems >> pretty clued up on it. >> >> So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what >> sort of >> content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with >> the >> terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. >> >> I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was >> planning on >> just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. >> >> If there is a better way to do things using a different application >> then I >> would really like to know. >> >> If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my >> question >> then please let me know. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Paul >> >> ___ >> Flashcoders mailing list >> Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com >> http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders >> >> > RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no > end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that > field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck > all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean > anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a > dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it > actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. > > In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets > you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw > components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy > alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be > handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a > framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go > bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give > instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a > lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed > to YET ANOTHER set of buttons and sliders. > > Company line: "The Flex product line delivers a standards-based > programming methodology and runtime services for developing and > deploying the presentation tier of applications that combine the > richness of the desktop with the reach of the web: Rich Internet > Applications." > > What the hell does that mean, other than an attempt to get you to > throw cash at them for the sake of cool. This reads to me like another > ColdFusion, a syntax so contrived and painful it effectively locks the > CFM developer to specialise in a platform that offers nothing to the > greater good. When i do AS, that same script can be moved to php and > java, even c++ and c# with little alteration. CFM syntax is an > abomination. In some cases conformity is a good thing. Anyway, i digress. > > By "presentation tier" they mean the user interface. In a web > application like google, this is the part where you put in the search > parameters and press "search". In RIA terms, this means the part where > you put in the search parameters should glow when you're typing, and > have audible sound effects for each keypress, in addition to a happy > fanfare and a fade transition when you hit "search". Even "richer", > let's add a dropdown menu for the last 10 searches, one that "unfolds" > like a chinese fan with an accompanying rustle of feath
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
http://www.macromedia.com/software/flex/productinfo/brz_overview/ Better description than my jaded cynical self could provide. Keep your bs filter in the "on" position though. - Andreas Andreas Rønning wrote: Paul Steven wrote: Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program (whatever it was called)) Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems to be something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. If there is a better way to do things using a different application then I would really like to know. If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my question then please let me know. Thanks in advance. Paul ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed to YET ANOTHER set of buttons and sliders. Company line: "The Flex product line delivers a standards-based programming methodology and runtime services for developing and deploying the presentation tier of applications that combine the richness of the desktop with the reach of the web: Rich Internet Applications." What the hell does that mean, other than an attempt to get you to throw cash at them for the sake of cool. This reads to me like another ColdFusion, a syntax so contrived and painful it effectively locks the CFM developer to specialise in a platform that offers nothing to the greater good. When i do AS, that same script can be moved to php and java, even c++ and c# with little alteration. CFM syntax is an abomination. In some cases conformity is a good thing. Anyway, i digress. By "presentation tier" they mean the user interface. In a web application like google, this is the part where you put in the search parameters and press "search". In RIA terms, this means the part where you put in the search parameters should glow when you're typing, and have audible sound effects for each keypress, in addition to a happy fanfare and a fade transition when you hit "search". Even "richer", let's add a dropdown menu for the last 10 searches, one that "unfolds" like a chinese fan with an accompanying rustle of feathers sound effect. I kid. But it's not completely untrue. The idea is to supply users with more intuitive and direct feedback to their choices through Flash. I think it's a completely unnecessary product line that propagates a design paradigm that's actually detrimental to the internet, in particular usability issues. You could say the same for Flash, but Flash isn't necessarily there to "improve" on the existing content as much as it's there to add to it. If you're comfy with the component framework and is willing to invest a lot of time in stuff you'll find no use for whatsoever in other languages, go Flex yourself out, i'm told it's great fun. - Andreas ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chatty
Re: [Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Paul Steven wrote: Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program (whatever it was called)) Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems to be something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. If there is a better way to do things using a different application then I would really like to know. If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my question then please let me know. Thanks in advance. Paul ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders RIA = fancy and completely useless buzzword that pisses me off to no end, mostly because it IS a buzzword, and developers who work in that field throw it around with insane abandon even though it means fuck all. "Rich Internet Application". To the "untrained eye" it could mean anything from a site with a video player through a flash game to a dhtml riddled search engine. It's such an open and generic term it actually angers me. It's the synergy craze all over again. In practical terms, Flex is a serverside compiler solution that lets you use actionscript in tandem with mxml (fancy pants xml) to throw components around. What it means for the end user is they get fancy alternatives to web shops and other things that might as well be handled with ajax or even old fashioned no frills html pages. It's a framework for stuffing sites full of components and things that go bing when you hit them, presumably to avoid reloading pages and give instant feedback, which is an attempt to improve usability, but in a lot of cases do the exact opposite by forcing users to be accustomed to YET ANOTHER set of buttons and sliders. Company line: "The Flex product line delivers a standards-based programming methodology and runtime services for developing and deploying the presentation tier of applications that combine the richness of the desktop with the reach of the web: Rich Internet Applications." What the hell does that mean, other than an attempt to get you to throw cash at them for the sake of cool. This reads to me like another ColdFusion, a syntax so contrived and painful it effectively locks the CFM developer to specialise in a platform that offers nothing to the greater good. When i do AS, that same script can be moved to php and java, even c++ and c# with little alteration. CFM syntax is an abomination. In some cases conformity is a good thing. Anyway, i digress. By "presentation tier" they mean the user interface. In a web application like google, this is the part where you put in the search parameters and press "search". In RIA terms, this means the part where you put in the search parameters should glow when you're typing, and have audible sound effects for each keypress, in addition to a happy fanfare and a fade transition when you hit "search". Even "richer", let's add a dropdown menu for the last 10 searches, one that "unfolds" like a chinese fan with an accompanying rustle of feathers sound effect. I kid. But it's not completely untrue. The idea is to supply users with more intuitive and direct feedback to their choices through Flash. I think it's a completely unnecessary product line that propagates a design paradigm that's actually detrimental to the internet, in particular usability issues. You could say the same for Flash, but Flash isn't necessarily there to "improve" on the existing content as much as it's there to add to it. If you're comfy with the component framework and is willing to invest a lot of time in stuff you'll find no use for whatsoever in other languages, go Flex yourself out, i'm told it's great fun. - Andreas ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
[Flashcoders] What is Flex?
Been using Flash now for many years to create online games, CDROMs and websites. I have always used the Flash program itself to create all my content because that was the only option I had available to me (with the exception of creating swfs in illustrator and the adobe flash program (whatever it was called)) Anyway I see alot of talk about some program called "Flex" that seems to be something to do with Flash development. I have obviously had my head in the sand as it appears to have just appeared out of nowhere and everyone seems pretty clued up on it. So I am asking for a simple decription of what Flex is and for what sort of content I should be using it for and why. I am not that familiar with the terms RIA or IDE so please keep the explanation in laymans terms. I am about to begin developing a large website in Flash and was planning on just making it in Flash 8 in the way I normally create Flash stuff. If there is a better way to do things using a different application then I would really like to know. If there is a different list that would be more appropriate to my question then please let me know. Thanks in advance. Paul ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
