Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
The problem I had existed both in the quicktime-source as well as the flv-file. So it seems there is something that has gone bad with the 3d-render, but no one knows what just yet. thanks for the tips though, I will use them soon when I will get a decent 3d-output 2008/7/6 Latcho [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No software problem: - Near def. encoding problem or source vid encoding problem get back to the source vid and reencode or try other vids with your existing script to elliminate problems. Jason Van Cleave wrote: was the original quicktime h.264? this format used to trip up squeeze and may have the same effect with the flash encoder. I would first try to export the file as uncompressed and reencode it to see if you are having the same issues On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Andrew Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see all of the details of how the video is encoded (FLV MetaData Viewer has a bug that keeps it from displaying some .flv file's data) but this is what I can see in FLV Player: Dimensions: 694 x 440 Framerate: 25fps Audio codec ID: 2 (which means it's an MP3) Audio datarate: 96 kbits/s (also the audio sounds stereo to me...) Video codec ID: 4 (which means it's On2 VP6) Video datarate: 400 kbits/s The main issue that's likely causing the stuttering is the constant motion throught the frame area. In my own video work I've been able to reduce that by bumping up the keyframe rate, but that of course will increase the file size and probably the workload on someone's CPU when it's played. I'd experiment with reducing the frame rate to something like 15 fps, give it a keyframe rate of one every 5 frames, convert the audio to mono and try tweaking the datarates of the video and the audio to get a good balance of visual quality and CPU bandwidth use. If your encoder software lets you set how many passes it makes during video encoding you can set it to use two passes, which can improve visual quality at lower video datarates. I hope that helps... ^_^ (ps: That's a delightful looking home. :D) Andrew Murphy Interactive Media Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delvinia 214 King Street West, Suite 214 Toronto Canada M5H 3S6 P 416.364.1455 ext. 232 F 416.364.9830 W www.delvinia.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient or received this communication by error, please notify the sender and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information légalement privilégiée ou confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire ou croyez avoir reçu par erreur ce message, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur et d'en détruire le contenu sans le communiquer a d'autres ou le reproduire. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:38 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that It's not that bad. I think the fact that there are a lot of hard edes and contiuous movement that any faults are more obvious. The stuttering was occuring as the video was playing and the file had not yet fully loaded (though was not halted to fill the buffer). The strange lines you mention appear to be the video player trying to keep up with the display. Despite all this, I think the quality isn't too bad. I'd try out a few variations on the encoding to see if that helps. I don't think I've ever tried to play such a large video on my laptop before. My last video project was 200x150. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
No software problem: - Near def. encoding problem or source vid encoding problem get back to the source vid and reencode or try other vids with your existing script to elliminate problems. Jason Van Cleave wrote: was the original quicktime h.264? this format used to trip up squeeze and may have the same effect with the flash encoder. I would first try to export the file as uncompressed and reencode it to see if you are having the same issues On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Andrew Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see all of the details of how the video is encoded (FLV MetaData Viewer has a bug that keeps it from displaying some .flv file's data) but this is what I can see in FLV Player: Dimensions: 694 x 440 Framerate: 25fps Audio codec ID: 2 (which means it's an MP3) Audio datarate: 96 kbits/s (also the audio sounds stereo to me...) Video codec ID: 4 (which means it's On2 VP6) Video datarate: 400 kbits/s The main issue that's likely causing the stuttering is the constant motion throught the frame area. In my own video work I've been able to reduce that by bumping up the keyframe rate, but that of course will increase the file size and probably the workload on someone's CPU when it's played. I'd experiment with reducing the frame rate to something like 15 fps, give it a keyframe rate of one every 5 frames, convert the audio to mono and try tweaking the datarates of the video and the audio to get a good balance of visual quality and CPU bandwidth use. If your encoder software lets you set how many passes it makes during video encoding you can set it to use two passes, which can improve visual quality at lower video datarates. I hope that helps... ^_^ (ps: That's a delightful looking home. :D) Andrew Murphy Interactive Media Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delvinia 214 King Street West, Suite 214 Toronto Canada M5H 3S6 P 416.364.1455 ext. 232 F 416.364.9830 W www.delvinia.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient or received this communication by error, please notify the sender and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information légalement privilégiée ou confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire ou croyez avoir reçu par erreur ce message, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur et d'en détruire le contenu sans le communiquer a d'autres ou le reproduire. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:38 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that It's not that bad. I think the fact that there are a lot of hard edes and contiuous movement that any faults are more obvious. The stuttering was occuring as the video was playing and the file had not yet fully loaded (though was not halted to fill the buffer). The strange lines you mention appear to be the video player trying to keep up with the display. Despite all this, I think the quality isn't too bad. I'd try out a few variations on the encoding to see if that helps. I don't think I've ever tried to play such a large video on my laptop before. My last video project was 200x150. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
[Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Martin Klasson Flash Developer Parkgatan 9-11 S-411 24 Göteborg Sweden Office +46 (0) 31 711 54 50 Cell +46 (0) 730 964 561 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.kokokaka.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
It's not that bad. I think the fact that there are a lot of hard edes and contiuous movement that any faults are more obvious. The stuttering was occuring as the video was playing and the file had not yet fully loaded (though was not halted to fill the buffer). The strange lines you mention appear to be the video player trying to keep up with the display. Despite all this, I think the quality isn't too bad. I'd try out a few variations on the encoding to see if that helps. I don't think I've ever tried to play such a large video on my laptop before. My last video project was 200x150. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Martin Klasson Flash Developer Parkgatan 9-11 S-411 24 Göteborg Sweden Office +46 (0) 31 711 54 50 Cell +46 (0) 730 964 561 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.kokokaka.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
What is the source frame rate? I have seen Flash encounter some stuttering on drop frame rates. For that size video, you are probably best to drop the frame rate down to about 15fps. It will probably still look good for the net and will most likely play a lot better. jord *Jordan L. Chilcott, President* Interactivity Unlimited Guelph, Ontario - Tel: (519) 837-1879 Fax: (519) 837-8610 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.interactivityunlimited.com iChat/AIM: j1chilcott Skype: bear-faced-cow SightSpeed: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Author: Building Web Sites with Macromedia Studio MX Author: Building Dynamic Web Sites with Macromedia Studio MX Author: Flash Professional 8: Training From the Source Author: Foundation Flash 8 Video Martin Klasson wrote: I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
I can't see all of the details of how the video is encoded (FLV MetaData Viewer has a bug that keeps it from displaying some .flv file's data) but this is what I can see in FLV Player: Dimensions: 694 x 440 Framerate: 25fps Audio codec ID: 2 (which means it's an MP3) Audio datarate: 96 kbits/s (also the audio sounds stereo to me...) Video codec ID: 4 (which means it's On2 VP6) Video datarate: 400 kbits/s The main issue that's likely causing the stuttering is the constant motion throught the frame area. In my own video work I've been able to reduce that by bumping up the keyframe rate, but that of course will increase the file size and probably the workload on someone's CPU when it's played. I'd experiment with reducing the frame rate to something like 15 fps, give it a keyframe rate of one every 5 frames, convert the audio to mono and try tweaking the datarates of the video and the audio to get a good balance of visual quality and CPU bandwidth use. If your encoder software lets you set how many passes it makes during video encoding you can set it to use two passes, which can improve visual quality at lower video datarates. I hope that helps... ^_^ (ps: That's a delightful looking home. :D) Andrew Murphy Interactive Media Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delvinia 214 King Street West, Suite 214 Toronto Canada M5H 3S6 P 416.364.1455 ext. 232 F 416.364.9830 W www.delvinia.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient or received this communication by error, please notify the sender and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information légalement privilégiée ou confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire ou croyez avoir reçu par erreur ce message, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur et d'en détruire le contenu sans le communiquer a d'autres ou le reproduire. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:38 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that It's not that bad. I think the fact that there are a lot of hard edes and contiuous movement that any faults are more obvious. The stuttering was occuring as the video was playing and the file had not yet fully loaded (though was not halted to fill the buffer). The strange lines you mention appear to be the video player trying to keep up with the display. Despite all this, I think the quality isn't too bad. I'd try out a few variations on the encoding to see if that helps. I don't think I've ever tried to play such a large video on my laptop before. My last video project was 200x150. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders -- Martin Klasson Flash Developer Parkgatan 9-11 S-411 24 Göteborg Sweden Office +46 (0) 31 711 54 50 Cell +46 (0) 730 964 561 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.kokokaka.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list
Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that
was the original quicktime h.264? this format used to trip up squeeze and may have the same effect with the flash encoder. I would first try to export the file as uncompressed and reencode it to see if you are having the same issues On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Andrew Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't see all of the details of how the video is encoded (FLV MetaData Viewer has a bug that keeps it from displaying some .flv file's data) but this is what I can see in FLV Player: Dimensions: 694 x 440 Framerate: 25fps Audio codec ID: 2 (which means it's an MP3) Audio datarate: 96 kbits/s (also the audio sounds stereo to me...) Video codec ID: 4 (which means it's On2 VP6) Video datarate: 400 kbits/s The main issue that's likely causing the stuttering is the constant motion throught the frame area. In my own video work I've been able to reduce that by bumping up the keyframe rate, but that of course will increase the file size and probably the workload on someone's CPU when it's played. I'd experiment with reducing the frame rate to something like 15 fps, give it a keyframe rate of one every 5 frames, convert the audio to mono and try tweaking the datarates of the video and the audio to get a good balance of visual quality and CPU bandwidth use. If your encoder software lets you set how many passes it makes during video encoding you can set it to use two passes, which can improve visual quality at lower video datarates. I hope that helps... ^_^ (ps: That's a delightful looking home. :D) Andrew Murphy Interactive Media Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delvinia 214 King Street West, Suite 214 Toronto Canada M5H 3S6 P 416.364.1455 ext. 232 F 416.364.9830 W www.delvinia.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient or received this communication by error, please notify the sender and delete the message without copying or disclosing it. AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information légalement privilégiée ou confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire ou croyez avoir reçu par erreur ce message, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur et d'en détruire le contenu sans le communiquer a d'autres ou le reproduire. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Andrews Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 9:38 AM To: Flash Coders List Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that It's not that bad. I think the fact that there are a lot of hard edes and contiuous movement that any faults are more obvious. The stuttering was occuring as the video was playing and the file had not yet fully loaded (though was not halted to fill the buffer). The strange lines you mention appear to be the video player trying to keep up with the display. Despite all this, I think the quality isn't too bad. I'd try out a few variations on the encoding to see if that helps. I don't think I've ever tried to play such a large video on my laptop before. My last video project was 200x150. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I used 400kbit on a 694x440 movie, with 96kbps audio in stereo, on2vp6. frame rate same as source, and automatic keyframes. How does it stutter, as it is buffering and than resumes - or does the video has strange lines appearing like it the video doesnt perform well. I think it is very strange, and I cant understand that I havent heard about this issue before! 2008/7/3 Paul Andrews [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What settings did you give the encoder - maybe your bitrate is too high. It certainly stutters on my machine. Maybe you have too many keyframes. Paul - Original Message - From: Martin Klasson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:03 PM Subject: [Flashcoders] filmmering FLV playback - why and how to fix that I got a quicktime which I have encoded to on2vp6-file with Flash Video Encoder, but the flv that is being played is having some flimmering results, as can be seen here: http://www.bjorkelangenpark.no/innredning.html The quicktime is not having this issue, I dont know how to solve this. Do you? Thanks, Martin ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
