Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
At 01:35 PM 12/11/2007, Mike Naruta wrote: >Just think of the glory that awaits the ham who comes >up with a new technique and doesn't get lured away >to the dark side. To be just a bit cynical (since I've been fighting a similar battle in another context), there are a variety of forces converging to prevent this (and it's not necessarily a dark side thing). There is huge commercial interest in coming up with high quality low bit rate voice codecs (since cellphone bandwidth is expensive...what was the likely bidding on the 700 Mhz band stuff?). It very much pays a company to hire top notch smart audio codec folks to do this, and further, given the competitive nature of the industry, it pays them to make sure that only Brand X gets the 1kbps codec, while all the other folks only get the 8kbps codec. (cell phones are 8kbps codecs, 13 kbps over the air after radio modem coding, packet overhead, etc.) And, developing, testing, and validating a codec isn't cheap, although it's certainly within the ham realm, because it IS something where free time can be traded for money.. It's not like designing 600 Mbps 64-QAM comm systems for 40 GHz, where there's a fairly steep buy-in just to get your test equipment going. The best bet is for some governmental agency to decide that it's something that they should fund completely (so that the IP winds up public and license free) as opposed to a cost sharing arrangement. Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the development model that is very popular these days. Complicating it is that new stuff tends to build on old stuff, and the old stuff is all bound up in those patents and IP agreements. It's one thing for a Harris or Thales to work out a cross licensing agreement with TI where they share their IP portfolios (especially if they use TI processors in their radios). It's another where the government might want to develop a new codec, and they could negotiate a license for, say, TI's MELP patent; but that license is likely only for the government's use. The logic goes: Why should the taxpayer pay more, just to let every Tom, Dick, and Harry, also use the new codec (which happens to include TI's IP). Especially since there's a policy that the government shouldn't be competing with industry, and clearly, TI's codec has value on the open market.\ As Bob points out, in the codec world, it's not even this simple. Lots of companies have lots of little interlocking pieces, and unlike the JPEG/MPEG world (or the H.264/AVC world), where the IP holders agreed to play nice and form a consortium, this isn't the case in the speech codec world. Every player seems to have their own opinions of: a) what their particular piece is worth b) how they expect to monetize the transactions and they are ALL different from each other. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
Mike Naruta wrote:
> I once became the IT Manager for a company that used
> MAI Basic Four equipment. They used special PROMs in
> their terminal and printers that were only available
> from MAI Basic Four, even though the equipment was
> common Printronix, etc. The PROM in the printers
> would repeat back the print line exactly as sent by
> the host. If the host didn't get the line back within
> a short time, it refused to send out any more print
> lines. Imagine trying to send that over stat Muxes.
> I got rid of that MAI Basic Four stuff as soon as I
> was able to.
Interesting... MAI was a party to one of the key cases in the
development of computer law. They had a provision in their license
agreement that prohibited anyone other than the owner from running the
software. Peak was an independent service company that MAI didn't like.
Since you need to boot the computer to diagnose it, MAI sued Peak for
copyright infringement.
The bad news is that MAI won the lawsuit.
The good news is that the decision, while technically correct, was so
wrong in a practical sense that Congress amended the copyright act soon
after, and now there is an explicit permission to run software as
necessary to service equipment in which that software is installed.
{Warning: that was a brief summary from memory; I may have a detail or
two wrong.]
John
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Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
Me too, Steve. I got all excited when I first read your note. This proprietary stuff really holds back the world. It's what keeps me from using AOR, D-Star, etc. I once became the IT Manager for a company that used MAI Basic Four equipment. They used special PROMs in their terminal and printers that were only available from MAI Basic Four, even though the equipment was common Printronix, etc. The PROM in the printers would repeat back the print line exactly as sent by the host. If the host didn't get the line back within a short time, it refused to send out any more print lines. Imagine trying to send that over stat Muxes. I got rid of that MAI Basic Four stuff as soon as I was able to. Just think of the glory that awaits the ham who comes up with a new technique and doesn't get lured away to the dark side. Mike - AA8K Steve Kallal wrote: > Sorry, but I didn't realize the DV software was using patented code. The > source code for MELP is available, but not the source code for FDMDV. > > I still like the idea of digital voice, but was unaware of the legal issues. > > 73, > > Steve N6VL > ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
Steve Kallal wrote: > Sorry, but I didn't realize the DV software was using patented code. The > source code for MELP is available, but not the source code for FDMDV. > > I still like the idea of digital voice, but was unaware of the legal issues. > > 73, > > Steve N6VL > It is not your fault, you are not distributing the code. I am not sure Jason is even aware of the MELP entanglements. The problem with MELP is that it has five patent holders and no one will talk to ANY of the others about it. This is why algorithms should NEVER be patented. I think the Supreme Court is finally beginning to realize what a mess they have made of things with the 1980's ruling(s) that set us down this road. I have friends that work for companies whose only real mission left in life is suing the world over a portfolio full of patents or buying a portfolio full as a defensive weapon. The Supreme Court recently said that the patent office was clearly issuing patents that do not meet the letter of the law, much less the spirit, when they issue patents on things that are "obvious to anyone familiar with the field". Bruce Perens, K6BP, is really pushing many of us to come up with an unrestricted code that works at low bit rates. We get more evidence every day that something needs to be done. Bob -- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair “An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?” Descartes ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
Sorry, but I didn't realize the DV software was using patented code. The source code for MELP is available, but not the source code for FDMDV. I still like the idea of digital voice, but was unaware of the legal issues. 73, Steve N6VL -Original Message- From: Jim Lux [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:12 PM To: Robert McGwier; Steve Kallal Cc: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A... At 11:34 AM 12/11/2007, Robert McGwier wrote: >MELP is covered by multiple patents. It is not licensed to anyone who >has produced this. This is a road down which there is nothing but >trouble. It is not the basis of our digital voice future and is in >fact a direct contributor to a lack of progress. We cannot use it. Bob >N4HY A colleague has observed that basically any voice encoding scheme you care to name other than the most trivial or horrible quality is probably patented. Therefore, perhaps some ham organization (e.g. ARRL) needs to negotiate a license for use of a good algorithm. This is not unheard of (The DS signalling technique used in some high speed networks is patented by, I think, Inmos, but they have irrevocably licensed it for use in a variety of applications (but not all) for no fee.) Or, find an algorithm which was developed by the U.S. Government and for which they hold the patent rights and allow use (As opposed to things that were developed with the developer retaining rights... NASA does this a lot, to save money... a vendor puts some of their own resources into the development, NASA gets a license for their use, but the vendor keeps the rights for all other uses). Or, recognizing that this is philosophically objectionable to some folks, if you were able to pay some nominal fee (say, $10) for a license to use the protocol. We do this now (but it's hidden) when buying blank audio and video recording media.. I also note that various folks own the rights for various rates for MELP.. It's sort of unclear, but I seem to recall it's TI for 2400bps, Microsoft for 1200bps, Harris for 600 bps. There's also waivers of license for military or government applications (perhaps a non-commercial amateur waiver is also possible.. something for the ARRL to pursue? Digital voice is interesting, but, so far, I haven't seen any decent proposals for how one can do the "party line" sort of operation characteristic of SSB voice. Most DV schemes assume some sort of protocol to ensure only one talker at a time. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
At 11:34 AM 12/11/2007, Robert McGwier wrote: >MELP is covered by multiple patents. It is not licensed to anyone >who has produced this. This is a road down which there is nothing >but trouble. It is not the basis of our digital voice future and is >in fact a direct contributor to a lack of progress. We cannot use >it. Bob N4HY A colleague has observed that basically any voice encoding scheme you care to name other than the most trivial or horrible quality is probably patented. Therefore, perhaps some ham organization (e.g. ARRL) needs to negotiate a license for use of a good algorithm. This is not unheard of (The DS signalling technique used in some high speed networks is patented by, I think, Inmos, but they have irrevocably licensed it for use in a variety of applications (but not all) for no fee.) Or, find an algorithm which was developed by the U.S. Government and for which they hold the patent rights and allow use (As opposed to things that were developed with the developer retaining rights... NASA does this a lot, to save money... a vendor puts some of their own resources into the development, NASA gets a license for their use, but the vendor keeps the rights for all other uses). Or, recognizing that this is philosophically objectionable to some folks, if you were able to pay some nominal fee (say, $10) for a license to use the protocol. We do this now (but it's hidden) when buying blank audio and video recording media.. I also note that various folks own the rights for various rates for MELP.. It's sort of unclear, but I seem to recall it's TI for 2400bps, Microsoft for 1200bps, Harris for 600 bps. There's also waivers of license for military or government applications (perhaps a non-commercial amateur waiver is also possible.. something for the ARRL to pursue? Digital voice is interesting, but, so far, I haven't seen any decent proposals for how one can do the "party line" sort of operation characteristic of SSB voice. Most DV schemes assume some sort of protocol to ensure only one talker at a time. ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
MELP is covered by multiple patents. It is not licensed to anyone who has produced this. This is a road down which there is nothing but trouble. It is not the basis of our digital voice future and is in fact a direct contributor to a lack of progress. We cannot use it. Bob N4HY -- AMSAT Director and VP Engineering. Member: ARRL, AMSAT-DL, TAPR, Packrats, NJQRP, QRP ARCI, QCWA, FRC. ARRL SDR WG Chair “An optimist may see a light where there is none, but why must the pessimist always run to blow it out?” Descartes ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
[Flexradio] Worked FDMDV mode w/ FLEX-5000A...
There is a new digital voice mode in town: FDMDV. It occupies 1.1 kHz, and the panadapter verifies this. I've had two QSOs so far, both in NY state on 20 meters. The popular frequency is 14,236 kHz. Most of Mel's (K0PFX) knowledge base article on WinDRM applies to the FLEX-5000. PowerSDR is set for DIGU mode. VAC is used to emulate the digital sound card in regular non-SDR rigs. However FDMDV and WinDRM require two sound cards, one for digital and one for voice. I am using a Heil mike and an FA-66 in non-computer mode as a preamp. It is nice not worry about audio response, since isn't important in digital voice. This mode is available to both FLEX-5000 and SDR-1000 users, as there are no strict timing issues. The recommended power level is 20 to 25 watts from a 100 watt rig. I assume that means RMS watts. I am unsure if driving the output higher causes distortion. At these power levels, either Flex rig will be fine. Any takers for digital voice out there? FDMDV or the wider WinDRM? For more info, see http://www.n1su.com/ and http://groups.google.com/group/WinDRM. 73, Steve N6VL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mail.flex-radio.biz/pipermail/flexradio_flex-radio.biz/attachments/20071210/07b17aba/attachment.html ___ FlexRadio mailing list FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archive Link: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ FlexRadio Knowledge Base: http://kb.flex-radio.com/ FlexRadio Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/
