[Flightgear-devel] OT: what to do with old 486 laptops
The question is what would you do with it if you had it?: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2058978645 It's a strange world. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
Jim Wilson writes: > Take a look at Fig's 2-1-4 on that page for the various number of light > configurations. > > There is a diagram with measurements on this page but it's pretty hard to read: > http://www.tpub.com/celec/20.htm > > The system they describe has 12 boxes, 3 lights in each box arranged in rows > of three boxes, two rows on each side of the runway. I'd put them closer to > the runway and closer together than the papi system...I guess depending on the > size of the runway (and length of approaches). > > Are you making these as 3D models? Jim, the short answer is yes, I'm making these as a 3d model. But I'm doing it as part of the airport generation phase. Regards, Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] OT: what to do with old 486 laptops
Different product, similar question. What could you do with this? http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/CGIBIN/PRIAMLNK.CGI?CNO=1&MP=PRDUPD^GIN132&STNO=ST00175&WHAT=info Richard > -Original Message- > From: Jim Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 09 October 2002 3:19 pm > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [Flightgear-devel] OT: what to do with old 486 laptops > > > The question is what would you do with it if you had it?: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2058978645 > > It's a strange world. > > Best, > > Jim > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > __ > __ > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The > service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive > anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: > http://www.star.net.uk > __ > __ > ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
RE: [Flightgear-devel] OT: what to do with old 486 laptops
Richard Bytheway writes: > Different product, similar question. > > What could you do with this? > >http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/CGIBIN/PRIAMLNK.CGI?CNO=1&MP=PRDUPD^GIN132&STNO=ST00175&WHAT=info A few of the customer comments are worth browsing as is the "Our customers also bought ..." section. Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
Curtis L. Olson writes: > Jim, the short answer is yes, I'm making these as a 3d model. But I'm > doing it as part of the airport generation phase. It would be nice if I could figure out how to do whatever you're doing with a model animation; then we could place the VASIS and PAPI systems using the regular 3D model manager, and add the default ones from default.apt in one giant batch script. That would also let us custom-design unusual configurations. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
David Megginson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Curtis L. Olson writes: > > > Jim, the short answer is yes, I'm making these as a 3d model. But I'm > > doing it as part of the airport generation phase. > > It would be nice if I could figure out how to do whatever you're doing > with a model animation; then we could place the VASIS and PAPI systems > using the regular 3D model manager, and add the default ones from > default.apt in one giant batch script. That would also let us > custom-design unusual configurations. > How do they work in real life? It seems that animation shouldn't be necessary. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
David Megginson writes: > It would be nice if I could figure out how to do whatever you're doing > with a model animation; then we could place the VASIS and PAPI systems > using the regular 3D model manager, and add the default ones from > default.apt in one giant batch script. That would also let us > custom-design unusual configurations. The directional lighting is based on environment mapping so the input you feed it is 'static', i.e. there's no animation. You need a texture map that specified the light color relative to view angle. The direction a light is pointing (i.e. a normal.) Plus a slightly clever mechanism to draw a point that isn't visible from behind. (Which keeps us in the bounds of defined environment mapping behavior.) Then you turn on environment mapping/automatic texture coordinate generate for drawing lights and set the polygon drawing mode to GL_POINT to allow the one side point trick to work and draw the point. The system automatically calculates a texture coordinate (or position in the texture map) based on your view angle relative to the specified normal. If you are looking at the point dead in line with the normal, you will get the center of the texture map. It's a bit of work to get there, but is a nice effect in the end ... although vasi/papi is not working out as well as I had hoped. It could be I'm doing something wrong, or could be that there is something I could do differntly to make it work correctly? I might punt on that for the moment. Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
Jim Wilson wrote: > How do they work in real life? It seems that animation shouldn't be > necessary. I got to see a 2-light PAPI up close at Fishers Island*, NY once. It's an astonishingly simple device. Basically, it's a box with a bright white interior. At one end is a lens. At the other (on the focal plane of the lens) is a white card painted red on the top and white on the bottom. Along the sides of the box are flourescent light tubes. ++ Red#/\ # | | Lens ~ | | Wht~\/ +-- + ==light=== So when you look through the lens, you see a singularity image (i.e. infinite magnification) of whatever you're looking at on the back card. If you're below the centerline, you see the red side. If you're above, you see the white. The box is mounted on a pair of sturdy concrete poles, and is tilted up at the glideslope angle. Basically, Curt's approach seems exactly right. The image of the thing depends entirely on direction to the viewer. There are no moving parts at all. Andy * A really cute airport for anyone in the northeast. Fishers Island is a tiny spot off the tip of Long Island, just south of New London, CT. The demographic is similar to Martha's Vinyard or Nantucket -- a small contingent of locals and a larger group of very wealthy vacation home owners. My sister-in-law's parents were in the former group. I got there on a ferry, not an airplane. :) -- Andrew J. RossNextBus Information Systems Senior Software Engineer Emeryville, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.nextbus.com "Men go crazy in conflagrations. They only get better one by one." - Sting (misquoted) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] environment mapping question
"Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > > Here's a question I'll throw out to the list on my way to bed. > > I'm working on VASI/PAPI type lights tonight and am running into a > problem. I'm using environment mapping with the normal aligned along > the desired approach path. This almost works as expected except for > one major problem. The texture coordinate that is generated is > ***highly*** dependent on the object's position on the screen. > > Thus, on approach, simply pitching up or down radically changes the > color of the vasi light, even though the relative view position > changes very little. Something to take cara about with environment mapping is the orientation of the normal vector. If you've got it wron (i.e. pointing away from you not towards you) you'll see the singularity - and thus quite possibly rapid changes. Apart fro mthat I can't help - except to point you to the little demo I wrote quite a long time ago. It seemed to work correctly for me. CU, Christian -- The idea is to die young as late as possible.-- Ashley Montague ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] environment mapping question
Christian Mayer writes: > "Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > > > > Here's a question I'll throw out to the list on my way to bed. > > > > I'm working on VASI/PAPI type lights tonight and am running into a > > problem. I'm using environment mapping with the normal aligned along > > the desired approach path. This almost works as expected except for > > one major problem. The texture coordinate that is generated is > > ***highly*** dependent on the object's position on the screen. > > > > Thus, on approach, simply pitching up or down radically changes the > > color of the vasi light, even though the relative view position > > changes very little. > > Something to take cara about with environment mapping is the orientation > of the normal vector. If you've got it wron (i.e. pointing away from you > not towards you) you'll see the singularity - and thus quite possibly > rapid changes. I haven't played much with enviroment mapping yet but I was wondering if there needed to be a transform on top of each light that in essence moved the lookat vector to point directly at each light instead of being aligned with the normal FGFS lookat vector. Norman ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] VASI
Jim Wilson writes: > > It would be nice if I could figure out how to do whatever you're doing > > with a model animation; then we could place the VASIS and PAPI systems > > using the regular 3D model manager, and add the default ones from > > default.apt in one giant batch script. That would also let us > > custom-design unusual configurations. > > > > How do they work in real life? It seems that animation shouldn't > be necessary. Apologies -- by 'animation' I mean 'anything that's not in the 3D file', including LOD and similar things. All the best, David -- David Megginson, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.megginson.com/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] OT: what to do with old 486 laptops
On Wednesday 09 October 2002 10:19 am, Jim Wilson wrote: > The question is what would you do with it if you had it?: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2058978645 > > It's a strange world. > > Best, > > Jim > That would depend on whether or not the drive was wiped ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] environment mapping question
Christian, It appears that in opengl, environment mapping is based on the the view direction relative to the object normal, not the eyepoint position relative to the object normal. In otherwords take an outdoor scene where our view is upright (i.e. up is opposite of gravity). There is a small reflective sphere at our eye level some distance away. We are looking directly at it so it is drawn in the center of our screen. We should see a reflection where the top half of the sphere shows sky and the bottom half of the sphere shows ground. Now if we pitch our view 30 degrees down, but keep the sphere in view, we would hope that the reflection wouldn't change because our eyepoint hasn't moved so we should see the same reflection. However, opengl environment mapping is a crude approximation and it only cares about your view "direction" so now the reflection is drawn as if we were viewing the sphere from a 30 degree up relative view position. This means if we try to use environment mapping to impliment VASI/PAPI type lights, they will only react to our view direction (i.e. amount of pitch up/down and heading) not our actual position relative to the glide slope (i.e. we are a little high, little low, etc. on our approach path.) So my conclusion is that we will need to find some sort of fancier opengl "trick" or else we will have to resort to implimenting vasi/papi lights "the hard way." Cub mapping *seems* like it might do the trick, but it's unclear to me at this point how we would get the cub map space to align properly with the flightgear world. In spherical environment mapping, "up" in the environment map texture always corresponds to the current view up so if you do a 180 degree roll and look at the same object, the reflection will now be backwards. I don't know how this is handled with cub environment mapping. Regards, Curt. Christian Mayer writes: > "Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > > > > Here's a question I'll throw out to the list on my way to bed. > > > > I'm working on VASI/PAPI type lights tonight and am running into a > > problem. I'm using environment mapping with the normal aligned along > > the desired approach path. This almost works as expected except for > > one major problem. The texture coordinate that is generated is > > ***highly*** dependent on the object's position on the screen. > > > > Thus, on approach, simply pitching up or down radically changes the > > color of the vasi light, even though the relative view position > > changes very little. > > Something to take cara about with environment mapping is the orientation > of the normal vector. If you've got it wron (i.e. pointing away from you > not towards you) you'll see the singularity - and thus quite possibly > rapid changes. > > Apart fro mthat I can't help - except to point you to the little demo I > wrote quite a long time ago. It seemed to work correctly for me. > > CU, > Christian > > -- > The idea is to die young as late as possible.-- Ashley Montague > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] environment mapping question
How about we leave a hole in the terrain, where the VASI is located, and put red and white bright surfaces underground ? > Christian, > > It appears that in opengl, environment mapping is based on the the > view direction relative to the object normal, not the eyepoint > position relative to the object normal. > > In otherwords take an outdoor scene where our view is upright (i.e. up > is opposite of gravity). There is a small reflective sphere at our > eye level some distance away. We are looking directly at it so it is > drawn in the center of our screen. We should see a reflection where > the top half of the sphere shows sky and the bottom half of the sphere > shows ground. > > Now if we pitch our view 30 degrees down, but keep the sphere in view, > we would hope that the reflection wouldn't change because our eyepoint > hasn't moved so we should see the same reflection. However, opengl > environment mapping is a crude approximation and it only cares about > your view "direction" so now the reflection is drawn as if we were > viewing the sphere from a 30 degree up relative view position. > > This means if we try to use environment mapping to impliment VASI/PAPI > type lights, they will only react to our view direction (i.e. amount > of pitch up/down and heading) not our actual position relative to the > glide slope (i.e. we are a little high, little low, etc. on our > approach path.) > > So my conclusion is that we will need to find some sort of fancier > opengl "trick" or else we will have to resort to implimenting > vasi/papi lights "the hard way." > > Cub mapping *seems* like it might do the trick, but it's unclear to me > at this point how we would get the cub map space to align properly > with the flightgear world. > > In spherical environment mapping, "up" in the environment map texture > always corresponds to the current view up so if you do a 180 degree > roll and look at the same object, the reflection will now be > backwards. I don't know how this is handled with cub environment > mapping. > > Regards, > > Curt. > > > Christian Mayer writes: > > "Curtis L. Olson" wrote: > > > > > > Here's a question I'll throw out to the list on my way to bed. > > > > > > I'm working on VASI/PAPI type lights tonight and am running into a > > > problem. I'm using environment mapping with the normal aligned along > > > the desired approach path. This almost works as expected except for > > > one major problem. The texture coordinate that is generated is > > > ***highly*** dependent on the object's position on the screen. > > > > > > Thus, on approach, simply pitching up or down radically changes the > > > color of the vasi light, even though the relative view position > > > changes very little. > > > > Something to take cara about with environment mapping is the orientation > > of the normal vector. If you've got it wron (i.e. pointing away from you > > not towards you) you'll see the singularity - and thus quite possibly > > rapid changes. > > > > Apart fro mthat I can't help - except to point you to the little demo I > > wrote quite a long time ago. It seemed to work correctly for me. > > > > CU, > > Christian > > > > -- > > The idea is to die young as late as possible.-- Ashley Montague > > > > ___ > > Flightgear-devel mailing list > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > -- > Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project > Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org > > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] environment mapping question
Alex Perry writes: > How about we leave a hole in the terrain, where the VASI is located, > and put red and white bright surfaces underground ? Ouch! :-) Sort of interesting though ... might have to stash that one away in case no better solutions arise. :-) Curt. -- Curtis Olson IVLab / HumanFIRST Program FlightGear Project Twin Cities[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Minnesota http://www.menet.umn.edu/~curt http://www.flightgear.org ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
