Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
David Megginson wrote: Fuel costs don't help, obviously, but they're a relatively small percentage of the cost of operating a plane (i.e. doubling the fuel cost might increase the cost of flying by 25%). Is maintenance more expensive? Is it taxation and government fees? Obviously, the money's not going into the equipment they rent you. I've asked my instructor: Our Warrior costs 40+ % fuel, 25 % commercial maintenance (required, if you use the aircraft for commercial purpose), 5 % amortization, the rest is mostly for insurance and hangaring, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
Martin Spott wrote: I've asked my instructor: Our Warrior costs 40+ % fuel, 25 % commercial maintenance (required, if you use the aircraft for commercial purpose), 5 % amortization, the rest is mostly for insurance and hangaring, How much does 100LL fuel cost per liter, again? All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
David Megginson wrote: How much does 100LL fuel cost per liter, again? I don't know the exact numbers. As far as I remember one liter costs 2 Euro (+/- 5 cent) at EDLN (3,20 CAD), Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
Martin Spott wrote: David Megginson wrote: How much does 100LL fuel cost per liter, again? I don't know the exact numbers. As far as I remember one liter costs 2 Euro (+/- 5 cent) at EDLN (3,20 CAD), So if fuel is 40% of the hourly cost, and you burn about 28 liters/hour (which is reasonable when you include time idling on the ground and all the low-power flying in the circuit), then the cost to operate a commercially-registered Warrior wet is about USD 140/hour. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
David Megginson wrote: Martin Spott wrote: David Megginson wrote: How much does 100LL fuel cost per liter, again? I don't know the exact numbers. As far as I remember one liter costs 2 Euro (+/- 5 cent) at EDLN (3,20 CAD), So if fuel is 40% of the hourly cost, and you burn about 28 liters/hour (which is reasonable when you include time idling on the ground and all the low-power flying in the circuit), then the cost to operate a commercially-registered Warrior wet is about USD 140/hour. The rates here in France are about 100 euros for 140CV and 130 euros for 180CV. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
David Megginson wrote: Fuel costs don't help, obviously, but they're a relatively small percentage of the cost of operating a plane (i.e. doubling the fuel cost might increase the cost of flying by 25%). Is maintenance more expensive? Is it taxation and government fees? Obviously, the money's not going into the equipment they rent you. Maintenance _is_ expensive, because aircraft used for commercial training (not in a flight club) need to have commercial maintenance. Another part is fuel cost, because we're supposed to pay twice as much in Europe compared to North America. And - last but not least - the owner of an aircraft probably needs to pay the rates to his bank you need some sort of amortization. At the Ottawa Flying Club, the 150's that most people train in do not have DME, [...] The 150 that I fly most of the time doesn't even have an artificial horizon :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
Martin Spott wrote: Maintenance _is_ expensive, because aircraft used for commercial training (not in a flight club) need to have commercial maintenance. Another part is fuel cost, because we're supposed to pay twice as much in Europe compared to North America. And - last but not least - the owner of an aircraft probably needs to pay the rates to his bank you need some sort of amortization. Yes, but all three of these apply in North America as well: maintenance standards are higher for commercially-registered aircraft, commerical insurance costs are ridiculous (they've forced many FBOs and schools out of business since September 11 2001), and North American FBO's also have bank loans to pay. You can factor out the fuel cost by looking at dry rental rates. For example, in Ottawa a Cessna 150 rents for CAD 69/hour (USD 53/hour) dry. There must be a reason that the same couldn't apply in Europe, only with the pilot paying USD 30-40/hour for fuel instead of USD 15-20/hour. I'm betting that government intervention (regulation, taxes, etc.) has something to do with it. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Training costs
From: Martin Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] David Megginson wrote: Fuel costs don't help, obviously, but they're a relatively small percentage of the cost of operating a plane (i.e. doubling the fuel cost might increase the cost of flying by 25%). Is maintenance more expensive? Is it taxation and government fees? Obviously, the money's not going into the equipment they rent you. Maintenance _is_ expensive, because aircraft used for commercial training (not in a flight club) need to have commercial maintenance. Another part is fuel cost, because we're supposed to pay twice as much in Europe compared to North America. And - last but not least - the owner of an aircraft probably needs to pay the rates to his bank you need some sort of amortization. At the Ottawa Flying Club, the 150's that most people train in do not have DME, [...] The 150 that I fly most of the time doesn't even have an artificial horizon :-) For the San Diego rental market, where a non-modern non-upgraded IFR C172 (eg 160 hp, N series, dual NAV/COM, ILS/DME) rents for about $1/minute, that cost splits into four equal $0.25/minute components for the following: * Fuel (including fuel taxes), which is about $1/gal more than car fuel; * Insurance (minimum hull and third party liability); * Maintenance (airframe, engine and avionics only), includes owner repairs; * Overhead (parking, washing, administration, etc, etc). You're welcome to draw your own conclusions from those numbers. If the facility's accident rate, or the airport accident rate, is equal to or greater than the national average, the insurance cost basically doubles. Note that depreciation is not listed, since older C172s do not lose value, and there is no allowance in those numbers for any profit for the owner. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] Training costs
Martin Spott wrote: We don't have two-seaters with gyros at our flight school ;-) - except the turn indicator - and we need at least dual NAV/COM as well as an ADF and DME for IFR flight in Germany. Everything below is not allowed for IFR. Fuel costs don't help, obviously, but they're a relatively small percentage of the cost of operating a plane (i.e. doubling the fuel cost might increase the cost of flying by 25%). Is maintenance more expensive? Is it taxation and government fees? Obviously, the money's not going into the equipment they rent you. At the Ottawa Flying Club, the 150's that most people train in do not have DME, but most of the 172's would meet your criteria, and they're only a little more expensive to rent. All the best, David ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel
