Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
On Saturday 07 May 2005 15:14, Harald JOHNSEN wrote: > Lee Elliott wrote: > >On Saturday 07 May 2005 10:04, Harald JOHNSEN wrote: > >>Lee Elliott wrote: > >>>On Friday 06 May 2005 17:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: > On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: > >If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the > > opposite direction as you turn > >to - They move to the right or to the left depending > >whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking > > about the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange > > to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it > > your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. > > - Just do some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like > > if they get zoomed in or zoomed out... > >> > >>You are right there is a strange movement. It's perhaps the > >>rotation axes of the clouds that are a bit off. > >> > I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside > the cloud. > > Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters > when one is inside the clouds? > > > > Ampere > >> > >>I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border > >> of a cloud. The quads are rotated to face the camera and > >> when the quads are very near on the left or the right the > >> rotation is too big and the quad go out of sight. This will > >> be corrected. > >> > >>>Hmm... I've flown inside them pretty convincingly but I'm > >>>seeing a darkened region within the clouds, even when I'm > >>>outside them, between the horizon and what I presume to be > >>>the bottom of the sky-sphere. > >>> > >>>I can post some screen shots of inside the clouds or of the > >>>horizon problem if anyone wants. > >>> > >>>LeeE > >>> > >>>___ > >>>Flightgear-devel mailing list > >>>Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > >>>http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-deve > >>>l 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > >> > >>Can you post screen shots of the darkened clouds problem ? > >> > >>Harald. > > > >Hello Harald, > > > >there's a screen-grab (425k) at > > > >http://www.overthetop.freeserve.co.uk/fgfs-screen-009.jpg > > > >I've got the weather visibility set to 3m at this > > altitude. > > > >LeeE > > > >___ > >Flightgear-devel mailing list > >Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > >http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > >2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > > I'm affraid I can't reproduce the problem, but I have allready > changed a few things in the rendering order of clouds to > correct the problem of scenario objects visible in front of > clouds, I changed the transparency of clouds too, they now > appear totaly transparent at the horizon. > > 3 screen shots, visibility set to 3, clouds visibility > set at 3 different ranges : > http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-scree >n-025.jpg > http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-scree >n-026.jpg > http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-scree >n-027.jpg > > another screen shot from another view : > http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-scree >n-029.jpg > > Harald. I think you may be a bit too far away in the first three shots but I'd expect to have seen the problem in the last one, on the left hand side. The region that's getting darkened on my system is definitely outlined by the horizon, along the bottom, but I'm not sure what matches with the top. There just seems to be a 'gap' between the top of the horizon and the bottom of the sky. Incidentally, I was wrong about the visibility setting I have for that altitude - it is actually 2m. This could just be a problem with the video card driver sigh... LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Erik Hofman wrote: Gerard ROBIN wrote: Hello, working with CVS MAY-08 -->2 o clock<-- FIRST When using -enable-real-weather-fetch, i get a non permanent presence of the clouds. once every disappear , once only one disappear, once every coming back. This, randomly during a very short period of time 3 ,4 second. Sometime its quiet. Flying during 10 min, over the se,a altitude 500. Looking at the content of the data coming from metar: elevation 907 coverage few thickness 65 When the coverage is few or broken the cloud layer disappears when inside the layer. This behavior is rather new but is useful for training purposes. It should not be necessary to do it this way when the 3d clouds are good enough to replace the 2d cloud layers. Yes, even with 3d clouds there was still the 2D code running for this effect. Also your version still have an hard coded 3d cloud layer (and the base of the two layers is not coherent). I will commit in a day or two a version that handle the metar and the cloud dialog a bit better. If i run again without real-weather everything is good. The clouds are nice and very fluid. SECOND The option --disable-clouds3 has no effect. We still continu loading on 3D clouds. That's because we now have two(!) pieces of code for generating 3d clouds, this option is only for the old cloud code. You should be able to disable them by adding the following: --prop:/sim/rendering/clouds3d-enable=false Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d They won't be enabled by default in my next release because I am now generating different type of layers and - ahem - it's far from perfect ;) Harald. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Gerard ROBIN wrote: Hello, working with CVS MAY-08 -->2 o clock<-- FIRST When using -enable-real-weather-fetch, i get a non permanent presence of the clouds. once every disappear , once only one disappear, once every coming back. This, randomly during a very short period of time 3 ,4 second. Sometime its quiet. Flying during 10 min, over the se,a altitude 500. Looking at the content of the data coming from metar: elevation 907 coverage few thickness 65 When the coverage is few or broken the cloud layer disappears when inside the layer. This behavior is rather new but is useful for training purposes. It should not be necessary to do it this way when the 3d clouds are good enough to replace the 2d cloud layers. If i run again without real-weather everything is good. The clouds are nice and very fluid. SECOND The option --disable-clouds3 has no effect. We still continu loading on 3D clouds. That's because we now have two(!) pieces of code for generating 3d clouds, this option is only for the old cloud code. You should be able to disable them by adding the following: --prop:/sim/rendering/clouds3d-enable=false Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Hello, working with CVS MAY-08 -->2 o clock<-- FIRST When using -enable-real-weather-fetch, i get a non permanent presence of the clouds. once every disappear , once only one disappear, once every coming back. This, randomly during a very short period of time 3 ,4 second. Sometime its quiet. Flying during 10 min, over the se,a altitude 500. Looking at the content of the data coming from metar: elevation 907 coverage few thickness 65 If i run again without real-weather everything is good. The clouds are nice and very fluid. SECOND The option --disable-clouds3 has no effect. We still continu loading on 3D clouds. GÃrard ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
> From: Erik Hofman > > Harald JOHNSEN wrote: > > > A cloud is represented by multiple billboard primitives. Above a certain > > distance they are replaced by an impostor (one quad). > > When they are near I draw all their billboards, each having its viewing > > angle to face the camera. It's that angle that must be locked above a > > certain value. > > I think this is the same problem that the viewer code has when looking > straight up (or straight down). It supposedly has something to do with > the rotation matrix and should be solved by using quaternations. > > Now, if I only knew what those are > This describes the matrix conversions and the problem with them: http://www.euclideanspace.com/maths/geometry/rotations/conversions/matrixToAngle/ You can see it in flightgear by going into chase view and looking straight down at the aircraft (scenery normal 0,0,0). The "camera" and hence the whole scene will start doing rapid rotations. This describes the Quaternian: http://www.euclideanspace.com/maths/algebra/realNormedAlgebra/quaternions/index.htm You don't really need to understand how a quaternian works to use one. There are quaternian objects and methods in plib that correspond to the matrix methods now used in the veiwer and model position/animation code (see plib's sgQuat class). You can convert between quats and matrices and concatenate multiple quats just like the matrices. Now that the viewer code is pretty stable it might be a good time to try to convert. Norman has suggested this to me serveral times in the past and I've pretty much tried to ignore him :-). I think my concern was with the prospect of trying to fix a rotation related bug when everything is quaternian. Matrices on the other hand are pretty easy to visualize if you've been working with them for a little bit. As much as I've looked at examples I haven't been able to do that with quats. But since we know the viewer code works pretty well, then we could probably go ahead and switch it. I guess if a problem did come up we could alway convert the quaternian to a matrix and dump the resulting matrix. Best, Jim ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Harald JOHNSEN wrote: A cloud is represented by multiple billboard primitives. Above a certain distance they are replaced by an impostor (one quad). When they are near I draw all their billboards, each having its viewing angle to face the camera. It's that angle that must be locked above a certain value. I think this is the same problem that the viewer code has when looking straight up (or straight down). It supposedly has something to do with the rotation matrix and should be solved by using quaternations. Now, if I only knew what those are :-) Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Manuel Massing wrote: Hi, I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of a cloud. The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the quads are very near on the left or the right the rotation is too big and the quad go out of sight. This will be corrected. so are you using billboards rather than impostors? Is a single cloud represented by multiple billboard primitives or by a single quad? In the latter case, you could try to use impostors with fixed world-space orientation, which are invalidated (&updated) above a certain viewing angle treshold and distance treshold (which depend on the extent of the cloud bounding box and impostor texture resolution, respectively). Manuel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d A cloud is represented by multiple billboard primitives. Above a certain distance they are replaced by an impostor (one quad). When they are near I draw all their billboards, each having its viewing angle to face the camera. It's that angle that must be locked above a certain value. Harald. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Hi, > I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of a cloud. > The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the quads are very > near on the left or the right the rotation is too big and the quad go > out of sight. This will be corrected. so are you using billboards rather than impostors? Is a single cloud represented by multiple billboard primitives or by a single quad? In the latter case, you could try to use impostors with fixed world-space orientation, which are invalidated (&updated) above a certain viewing angle treshold and distance treshold (which depend on the extent of the cloud bounding box and impostor texture resolution, respectively). Manuel ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Am Samstag 07 Mai 2005 11:04 schrieb Harald JOHNSEN: > You are right there is a strange movement. It's perhaps the rotation > axes of the clouds that are a bit off. > > I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of a cloud. > The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the quads are very > near on the left or the right the rotation is too big and the quad go > out of sight. This will be corrected. > > > Harald. Well, I'am not envolved in 3d-programming. But what would happen if you suppress the rotating in whole. If i look sideward out the the cockpit I see a couple of clouds rotating - other not. This looks ugly ;) The other thing is the lightning which also changes when the cloud rotates. When it was darker befor, then it is brighter, even white - depending of where the sun is - sure. When you apply the patch, do you just query whether the plane is too near to the cloud or is it something more complex? If so, I would try a always-false condition to the query to see what's the result if rotating is turned off. Karsten ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Lee Elliott wrote: On Saturday 07 May 2005 10:04, Harald JOHNSEN wrote: Lee Elliott wrote: On Friday 06 May 2005 17:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite direction as you turn to - They move to the right or to the left depending whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking about the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get zoomed in or zoomed out... You are right there is a strange movement. It's perhaps the rotation axes of the clouds that are a bit off. I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside the cloud. Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters when one is inside the clouds? Ampere I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of a cloud. The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the quads are very near on the left or the right the rotation is too big and the quad go out of sight. This will be corrected. Hmm... I've flown inside them pretty convincingly but I'm seeing a darkened region within the clouds, even when I'm outside them, between the horizon and what I presume to be the bottom of the sky-sphere. I can post some screen shots of inside the clouds or of the horizon problem if anyone wants. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Can you post screen shots of the darkened clouds problem ? Harald. Hello Harald, there's a screen-grab (425k) at http://www.overthetop.freeserve.co.uk/fgfs-screen-009.jpg I've got the weather visibility set to 3m at this altitude. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d I'm affraid I can't reproduce the problem, but I have allready changed a few things in the rendering order of clouds to correct the problem of scenario objects visible in front of clouds, I changed the transparency of clouds too, they now appear totaly transparent at the horizon. 3 screen shots, visibility set to 3, clouds visibility set at 3 different ranges : http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-screen-025.jpg http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-screen-026.jpg http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-screen-027.jpg another screen shot from another view : http://sites.estvideo.net/tipunch/flightgear/images/fgfs-screen-029.jpg Harald. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
On Saturday 07 May 2005 10:04, Harald JOHNSEN wrote: > Lee Elliott wrote: > >On Friday 06 May 2005 17:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: > >>On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: > >>>If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite > >>>direction as you turn > >>>to - They move to the right or to the left depending > >>>whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking about > >>>the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange to > >>>discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it your > >>>self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just > >>> do some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they > >>> get zoomed in or zoomed out... > > You are right there is a strange movement. It's perhaps the > rotation axes of the clouds that are a bit off. > > >>I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside the > >>cloud. > >> > >>Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters when > >>one is inside the clouds? > >> > >> > >> > >>Ampere > > I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of > a cloud. The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the > quads are very near on the left or the right the rotation is > too big and the quad go out of sight. This will be corrected. > > >Hmm... I've flown inside them pretty convincingly but I'm > > seeing a darkened region within the clouds, even when I'm > > outside them, between the horizon and what I presume to be > > the bottom of the sky-sphere. > > > >I can post some screen shots of inside the clouds or of the > >horizon problem if anyone wants. > > > >LeeE > > > >___ > >Flightgear-devel mailing list > >Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org > >http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel > >2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d > > Can you post screen shots of the darkened clouds problem ? > > Harald. Hello Harald, there's a screen-grab (425k) at http://www.overthetop.freeserve.co.uk/fgfs-screen-009.jpg I've got the weather visibility set to 3m at this altitude. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Lee Elliott wrote: On Friday 06 May 2005 17:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite direction as you turn to - They move to the right or to the left depending whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking about the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get zoomed in or zoomed out... You are right there is a strange movement. It's perhaps the rotation axes of the clouds that are a bit off. I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside the cloud. Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters when one is inside the clouds? Ampere I think that you have that effect if you fly to the border of a cloud. The quads are rotated to face the camera and when the quads are very near on the left or the right the rotation is too big and the quad go out of sight. This will be corrected. Hmm... I've flown inside them pretty convincingly but I'm seeing a darkened region within the clouds, even when I'm outside them, between the horizon and what I presume to be the bottom of the sky-sphere. I can post some screen shots of inside the clouds or of the horizon problem if anyone wants. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d Can you post screen shots of the darkened clouds problem ? Harald. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
On Friday 06 May 2005 17:29, Ampere K. Hardraade wrote: > On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: > > If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite > > direction as you turn > > to - They move to the right or to the left depending > > whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking about > > the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange to > > discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it your > > self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do > > some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get > > zoomed in or zoomed out... > > I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside the > cloud. > > Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters when > one is inside the clouds? > > > > Ampere Hmm... I've flown inside them pretty convincingly but I'm seeing a darkened region within the clouds, even when I'm outside them, between the horizon and what I presume to be the bottom of the sky-sphere. I can post some screen shots of inside the clouds or of the horizon problem if anyone wants. LeeE ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Le vendredi 06 mai 2005 Ã 16:06 +0200, Karsten Krispin a Ãcrit : > Hi! > > I've tried FG from CVS (05.05.05 haha...). Great work with the 3d-clouds. > But there are two things to mention: > > If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite direction as you > turn > to - They move to the right or to the left depending whether you turn > left or right. (And I'am not talking about the movements through the > wind ;)). It is strange to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try > it your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do some > hard > and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get zoomed in or zoomed out... > > Second thing: please make a switch for both cloud types. Flying with plain > 3d-clouds looks truly great, but not really realistic if there are more than > one layer or even there is just one, but it should be overcast. > I agree with Karsten. and in addition to these wishes the option --disable-clouds3d is not operational now. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
On May 6, 2005 10:06 am, Karsten Krispin wrote: > If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite direction as > you turn > to - They move to the right or to the left depending whether you turn > left or right. (And I'am not talking about the movements through the > wind ;)). It is strange to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try > it your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do some > hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get zoomed in or zoomed > out... I know what you mean. It seems you can never go inside the cloud. Perhaps visibility should be decreased to a few meters when one is inside the clouds? Ampere ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
[Flightgear-devel] new 3d clouds - strange movement
Hi! I've tried FG from CVS (05.05.05 haha...). Great work with the 3d-clouds. But there are two things to mention: If you bank your plane the clouds will move in the opposite direction as you turn to - They move to the right or to the left depending whether you turn left or right. (And I'am not talking about the movements through the wind ;)). It is strange to discribe this - The easiest way would be you try it your self :) - You'll immediatly recognize what I mean. - Just do some hard and fast turns. Also it looks like if they get zoomed in or zoomed out... Second thing: please make a switch for both cloud types. Flying with plain 3d-clouds looks truly great, but not really realistic if there are more than one layer or even there is just one, but it should be overcast. Greetings, Karsten ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@flightgear.org http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
