Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 04:52:01PM +0200, Georg Vollnhals wrote: due to my bad english knowledge I will repeat some technical expressions in German, Melchior Franz will understand it: I'm Austrian! Well, I do of course understand some German words ... And by the way, your English seems fine for someone who isn't native speaker either. :-) [...] Normally (modern helos) there is no clutch between working part of turbine and main-gear. OK, that explains Martin's and my experience. The AB204 (where I observed engines first, then rotor) is *really* old. (We used it until a few years ago, nevertheless.) Although the Bo105 isn't exactly a modern helicopter, either, I'll now go for the no-clutch version. If you lock your rotor brake when starting a turbine you will burn the blades of the working turbine part - good luck! Once I implement the rotor brake, I'll need to know what I had to expect model in this case. (High temperature in both turbines? Unpleasant noise? Warining light/sound? :-) If your Rotor is faster then the turbine (naturally gear between) you have a free wheel (Freilauf), also needed for autorotation. Unfortunately, the FDM doesn't support autorotation yet. Thanks for the offer to answer further questions. I will sure contact you for some more detail. Until the FDM is more refined, I'll re-write the turbine fake code and write a patch to adjust the rotor RPM via property. I'll also try to make use of real YASim turbines. (Someone else will probably have to care for the glue code, that defines how turbines and rotor should interact.) Thanks for the manual link (I'll download it as soon as I'm back at my machine -- I'm in exile and handling email via telnet/mutt on a Win95/100MHz/8MB machine; very painful! :-/ ) and many thanks for your detailed explanations. Prepare for being abused as a beta tester! ;-) m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2004 at 04:52:01PM +0200, Georg Vollnhals wrote: If you lock your rotor brake when starting a turbine you will burn the blades of the working turbine part - good luck! Once I implement the rotor brake, I'll need to know what I had to expect model in this case. (High temperature in both turbines? Unpleasant noise? Warining light/sound? :-) Irritating amounts and colour of smoke leaving the exhaust :-) As a metallurgist I've seen examples of blades being burnt at high temperature - impressive ! Thanks for the manual link (I'll download it as soon as I'm back at my machine -- I'm in exile and handling email via telnet/mutt on a Win95/100MHz/8MB machine; very painful! :-/ ) Try 'PuTTY' - presumably the best you can get on Windows: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:52:30PM +, Martin Spott wrote: Melchior FRANZ wrote: I'm in exile and handling email via telnet/mutt on a Win95/100MHz/8MB machine; very painful! :-/ ) Try 'PuTTY' - presumably the best you can get on Windows: I meant 'telnet' -- the protocol, not Micros~1's crappy telnet.exe client. I *am* already using said putty.exe. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:58:00 +0200, Melchior wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 02:52:30PM +, Martin Spott wrote: Melchior FRANZ wrote: I'm in exile and handling email via telnet/mutt on a Win95/100MHz/8MB machine; very painful! :-/ ) Try 'PuTTY' - presumably the best you can get on Windows: I meant 'telnet' -- the protocol, not Micros~1's crappy telnet.exe client. I *am* already using said putty.exe. ..you might prefer ssh, is compressible too. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
How about smelly exhaust? =P Ampere On September 15, 2004 10:17 am, Melchior FRANZ wrote: If you lock your rotor brake when starting a turbine you will burn the blades of the working turbine part - good luck! Once I implement the rotor brake, I'll need to know what I had to expect model in this case. (High temperature in both turbines? Unpleasant noise? Warining light/sound? :-) ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 08:21:47PM +, Martin Spott wrote: According to what I've seen (partly from very nearby) helicopter pilots use to start their turbines with the transmission already clutched to the engine. I fly regularly with helicopters (just 4 days ago with an AB212), but unfortunately I don't usually pay much attention to this. Mostly they do pick me up with running engines and rotors. I remember, though, that an AB204 pilot started the engine first, and *then* clutched the rotor -- not at 100% engine power, of course. Also, one of the best helicopter sims (SAR II demo; not v1 or v3, both of which are crap) did it that way. Anyway, as I'm no helicopter pilot, I'll better ask a RL Bo105 pilot and adapt the Nasal-fake startup procedure accordingly. The 'faked' engine startup process doesn't look that bad. I simply wonder why you didn't sync rotor acceleration to it. To be honest: I don't understand how you managed to separate the two Because I do think that the engines should be started first. And because the YASim rotor code doesn't allow to control the rotor RPM. The acceleration from 0 to the hard-coded RPM is done by the FDM. I'm still waiting for someone who is able and willing to finish the half-done helcopter FDM. I'm just willing, but unable. :-] m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Melchior FRANZ wrote: I fly regularly with helicopters (just 4 days ago with an AB212), but unfortunately I don't usually pay much attention to this. Mostly they do pick me up with running engines and rotors. I remember, though, that an AB204 pilot started the engine first, and *then* clutched the rotor -- not at 100% engine power, of course. I hope you didn't misunderstand me. It was _not_ my intention to drag your startup procedure in the mud. I was simply wondering because the former procedure didn't differenciate between engine and rotor and I've never seen such a procedure like the current one in real live - as a real enthusiast I've already watched many helicopters starting their engines ;-) The 'faked' engine startup process doesn't look that bad. I simply wonder why you didn't sync rotor acceleration to it. To be honest: I don't understand how you managed to separate the two And because the YASim rotor code doesn't allow to control the rotor RPM. The acceleration from 0 to the hard-coded RPM is done by the FDM. Aaaah, this is the missing info - now I understand. After looking at the Nasal code I found myself a bit lost. Thanks, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Mon, Sep 13, 2004 at 09:50:50AM +, Martin Spott wrote: I hope you didn't misunderstand me. It was _not_ my intention to drag your startup procedure in the mud. No problem. Despite the unfinished state of the FDM the Nasal parts could perhaps be more realistic at least. As I said, I'll ask a Bo105 pilot (will take two weeks, though). the rotor RPM. The acceleration from 0 to the hard-coded RPM is done by the FDM. Aaaah, this is the missing info - now I understand. After looking at the Nasal code I found myself a bit lost. Hehe, that explains it. The FDM is done like this: as soon as the magneto switch is turned on, the rotor goes from 0 to (I think) 995 RPM within 30 seconds, and turning it off goes back to 0 again within 30 seconds. I can read out where the RPM currently is, but I can't control it. Also, there's no modeled turbine behind this, only a sound animation and a timer. I had made some tests with YASim's built-in turbines, but gave up after realizing that I wouldn't be able to shut them down. Maybe I'll retry and add some Nasal fake code again. My lack of helicopter experience doesn't really beat me to it, though. Maybe someone can convice Maik to join in again ... m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 08:28:13PM -0600, Dave Perry wrote: 1. bo105 - no power. I did not look for the reason. Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 08:28:13PM -0600, Dave Perry wrote: 1. bo105 - no power. I did not look for the reason. Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor m. Does fgfs use direct key addressing or is it important which keymap do you use? - Matevz ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Dave Perry wrote: 3. f104 - no power. This used to work. I'm baffled about this one. It's not clear to me what is causing this. 4. j3cub - Aborted. This used to work. This dos work for me. If it's an assertion problem then it is caused by OpenAL. Just try to start FlightGear again and things will (most probably) work just fine. 5. paraglider - pannel error locked fgfs so none of the tabs worked. I've added a 3d-panel for the glider now. So this is solved. Erik ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Matevz Jekovec wrote: Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 08:28:13PM -0600, Dave Perry wrote: 1. bo105 - no power. I did not look for the reason. Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor m. Does fgfs use direct key addressing or is it important which keymap do you use? fgfs use ascii values, so you just have to produce a ']', whatever the key combinaison requested by your keyboard. My french keyboard requires AltGr-) that produce a ']'. -Fred ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 10:17:12AM +0200, Melchior FRANZ wrote: Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor err ... it's less than 30 seconds, actually. Just wait for 100% engine power. Then you'll have to wait around 30 seconds for the rotor to spin up to 100%. You can lift off sooner, though. m. ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 08:28:13PM -0600, Dave Perry wrote: 1. bo105 - no power. I did not look for the reason. Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor BTW, isn't this totally irrealistic ? I've never seen a helicopter clutching the rotor with engines at full speed - I assume this would break the whole transmission at once ! They always have the rotor turning right from the beginning of engine startup, from a small RotorWay Exec, Bell-47, Alouette II/III, Ecureuil, BO-105/-108, EC-whateveryouthinkof, up to CH-53 and if I remember correctly Mil-26 and many more Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 04:35:15PM +, Martin Spott wrote: Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Sat, Sep 11, 2004 at 08:28:13PM -0600, Dave Perry wrote: 1. bo105 - no power. [...] Shift-]- start turbines wait 30 seconds Shift-] again - clutch rotor BTW, isn't this totally irrealistic ? I've never seen a helicopter clutching the rotor with engines at full speed - I assume this would break the whole transmission at once ! No, it isn't totally realistic. YASim's rotor always runs at 100% and there is no throttle at all. There isn't even a turbine -- just hardcoded RPM and power. The startup process is only faked via Nasal and synced with a spool-up sound. And talking about realism: have you ever started/shut-down *any* of the turbines? In any of the aircrafts? No, you haven't. I'd love to have the bo totally realistic, but that's not totally feasible right now. (Although YASim does meanwhile have real turbines ... which you can't start/shut-down either.) m. PS: patches welcome, as always ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Melchior FRANZ wrote: On Sun, Sep 12, 2004 at 04:35:15PM +, Martin Spott wrote: BTW, isn't this totally irrealistic ? I've never seen a helicopter clutching the rotor with engines at full speed - I assume this would break the whole transmission at once ! No, it isn't totally realistic. YASim's rotor always runs at 100% and there is no throttle at all. There isn't even a turbine -- just hardcoded RPM and power. The startup process is only faked via Nasal and synced with a spool-up sound. And talking about realism: have you ever started/shut-down *any* of the turbines? In any of the aircrafts? No, you haven't. I'd love to have the bo totally realistic, but that's not totally feasible right now. Should I have already started such an engine myself ? No, I never did. I admit I'd love to but that is a different topic :-) According to what I've seen (partly from very nearby) helicopter pilots use to start their turbines with the transmission already clutched to the engine. The 'faked' engine startup process doesn't look that bad. I simply wonder why you didn't sync rotor acceleration to it. To be honest: I don't understand how you managed to separate the two Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Martin Spott wrote: The 'faked' engine startup process doesn't look that bad. I simply wonder why you didn't sync rotor acceleration to it. To be honest: I don't understand how you managed to separate the two Sorry, I forgot tthe smilie - here you are: :-) Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Not if the helicopter uses an automatic transmission. =P Ampere On September 12, 2004 12:35 pm, Martin Spott wrote: BTW, isn't this totally irrealistic ? I've never seen a helicopter clutching the rotor with engines at full speed - I assume this would break the whole transmission at once ! ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Automatic gearboxes fail too often on the road, without much warning, for me to want one in a chopper. At least if a fixed wing engine fails you can attempt to glide. Giles Robertson -Original Message- From: Ampere K. Hardraade [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 12 September 2004 23:15 To: FlightGear developers discussions Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work Not if the helicopter uses an automatic transmission. =P Ampere On September 12, 2004 12:35 pm, Martin Spott wrote: BTW, isn't this totally irrealistic ? I've never seen a helicopter clutching the rotor with engines at full speed - I assume this would break the whole transmission at once ! ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
Re: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
Giles Robertson wrote: Automatic gearboxes fail too often on the road, without much warning, for me to want one in a chopper. At least if a fixed wing engine fails you can attempt to glide. I've talked about that to a real helicopter pilot at our local club: Most real rotary pilots would tell you then that they'd much rather be autorotating down to the ground from 100 ft than glide from an altitude ten times that much in an airplane... Taking into account that your odds to find a reasonable spot to land are usually much better in a helicopter than in an airplane, this sounds convincing to me. On the other hand, the European (JAA) syllabus for the PPL now requires new students to be proficient in no-engine landings, where your instructor takes you to an altitude of say 1000 ft and shows you how to reach the threshold without engines. While it's certainly a good thing to be familiar with such a situation, the whole thing gets pointless if there isn't a runway, road or whatever ... So, I can understand the rotary folks who keep telling you that they feel a lot safer in their choppers in that regard :-) But then there are of course also limiting factors for the autorotation to work (e.g. altitude speed) - Boris ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
RE: [Flightgear-devel] next release - ac that don't work
6. shuttle - broken (maybe I don't know what it is supposed to do) I would suggest that the shuttle should not be released at the moment. Jon ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.flightgear.org/mailman/listinfo/flightgear-devel 2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d
