Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
David Luff wrote: Steve Hosgood writes: My only comment is just that 1937 maps will certainly be before the National Grid was adopted, and will be based on the "old triangulation" done between the late 1700's to mid 1800's. I don't know the details, but it wasn't metric (possibly surveyed in "survey chains" or thousands of yards or royal Babylonian cubits). The first OS maps based on the "new triangulation" (which was metric), and with the now-familiar National Grid didn't appear to the public until after WWII. Whether or not you can get an "old survey" map to line up with a "new survey" map (or even with reality!) is not obvious. I'm not even sure if the mapping projection of the pre WWII maps is the same as today's (i.e Transverse Mercator based on the "Airy 1830" spheroid). It certainly isn't WGS84 which IIRC is what FG's terrain is based on. Hmm, I've got a feeling that the 36 in OSGB36 might refer to 1936, in which case you are probably right - post-war maps should be OK - I've got no problem converting to and from WGS84 == OSGB36. It seems that 1" maps from the 7th series in the mid fifties to early sixties are fairly widely available - I guess that these are probably the best to go for at the moment. I will look out for one to a hilly area to try as a proof-of-concept. Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSGB36 You are right: the "36" refers to 1936, the date that they created the "OSGB36" datum, but the underlying spheroid is still the 1830 Airy Spheroid, used by the earlier survey. However, the 1936 resurvey was done with technology 100 years advanced from the original survey, and was way more accurate. They brought in the trig points, still familiar to hill walkers today, and introduced the National Grid and had the foresight to do it all in metric - still regarded as rather an alien concept back then. Regarding the rest of the thread - yes, the OS jealously guards copyright in the UK. Other agencies are just as bad - it was very difficult to find online tide tables for dates in the future last time I looked. Try "xtide". There is (allegedly) a port called "wxtide32" for windoze people.
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Hi, Jon Stockill schrieb: Lee Elliott wrote: There have been rumours that the OS introduced deliberate errors in their maps so that they could be used to identify 'copiers' but quite apart from the fact that this would prove nothing (because it doesn't preclude someone else doing exactly the same thing or simply making a coincidental mistake) the OS also insists quite strongly that is has never, and will never introduce data error. Think again: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs That's the interesting part of that German rouling: The court explicitly considered the fact that the plaintiff included such easter eggs in its maps and dismissed it as irrelevant. However, as it seems the legal situation is clearly different in the UK, as the court ruling mentioned in your link shows. In any case, regarding street and landuse data we're probably best off using aerials and vectorising off them. However, have a look at http://publicgeodata.org/Home Definitely worth your support. No doubt about it. Cheers, Ralf --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Hi again, Ralf Gerlich schrieb: Jon Stockill schrieb: Think again: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs That's the interesting part of that German rouling: The court explicitly considered the fact that the plaintiff included such easter eggs in its maps and dismissed it as irrelevant. However, as it seems the legal situation is clearly different in the UK, as the court ruling mentioned in your link shows. Or put differently: Even though the plaintiff was able to prove the origin of the defendant's map by the easter eggs, that bought them nothing, as the base data is not copyright protected and the easter eggs won't count as mental creation to make it protected. Again: IANAL, and this is my interpretation of the ruling. Cheers, Ralf --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
... Or put differently: Even though the plaintiff was able to prove the origin of the defendant's map by the easter eggs, that bought them nothing, as the base data is not copyright protected and the easter eggs won't count as mental creation to make it protected. Again: IANAL, and this is my interpretation of the ruling. I've also thought about this over and over, since I've prepared VERY detailed (from German TK25) tiles for (as of now :-() personal use. Copyright is only one issue though. At least with the german maps there are also terms of use, which explicitly disallow even the scanning of the maps and of course digitization. I'm not sure what violation of these rules means in terms of the legal situation. It would be interesting though whether this also is legally restricted to the case of 1:1 reproductions. On the other hand I've also seen the argument that the map as a whole (i.e. the collection of all TK25) is the original work. Reproducing a single TK25 therefore is just a citation as covered in copyright law. This probably rests on thin ice though. Just to be sure: I'm also not a lawyer and this is my personal interpretation of the situation. Thomas --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Steve Hosgood writes: My only comment is just that 1937 maps will certainly be before the National Grid was adopted, and will be based on the old triangulation done between the late 1700's to mid 1800's. I don't know the details, but it wasn't metric (possibly surveyed in survey chains or thousands of yards or royal Babylonian cubits). The first OS maps based on the new triangulation (which was metric), and with the now-familiar National Grid didn't appear to the public until after WWII. Whether or not you can get an old survey map to line up with a new survey map (or even with reality!) is not obvious. I'm not even sure if the mapping projection of the pre WWII maps is the same as today's (i.e Transverse Mercator based on the Airy 1830 spheroid). It certainly isn't WGS84 which IIRC is what FG's terrain is based on. Hmm, I've got a feeling that the 36 in OSGB36 might refer to 1936, in which case you are probably right - post-war maps should be OK - I've got no problem converting to and from WGS84 == OSGB36. It seems that 1 maps from the 7th series in the mid fifties to early sixties are fairly widely available - I guess that these are probably the best to go for at the moment. I will look out for one to a hilly area to try as a proof-of-concept. Regarding the rest of the thread - yes, the OS jealously guards copyright in the UK. Other agencies are just as bad - it was very difficult to find online tide tables for dates in the future last time I looked. I've heard the opinion given from a source that I respect that the OS regards vector data from non-OS aerial imagery that has been ortho-rectified using OS data to contain residual OS copyright. However, the 50 year expiry of Crown Copyright on published works (it's a lot longer on unpublished government material) is clearly stated on the OS website, so ultimately all their mapping is free to use - we just have to wait a while. Now that's the sort of development that I like the sound of ;-) I think that elevation and waterbody outlines from the 50s should be just fine though, and a major improvement on the current situation. Cheers - Dave --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
David Luff wrote: Hi folks, I happened to come across the following ebay item whilst looking for a map which caught my eye: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1937-Ordnance-Survey-Map-42-Llandudno-and-Denbigh_W0QQitemZ8403614581QQcategoryZ121824QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It's a 1937 OS map to a reasonably hilly area of the UK, and appears to have quite detailed contours. All the information I can find suggests that Crown Copyright persists in OS products for 50 years from the date of publication, suggesting that it might be possible to extract freely usable elevation data from such maps, admittedly not up-to-date but likely to be much denser than the 3-arcsec SRTM. Does anyone see any major flaws in this line of thought? Cheers - Dave My only comment is just that 1937 maps will certainly be before the National Grid was adopted, and will be based on the old triangulation done between the late 1700's to mid 1800's. I don't know the details, but it wasn't metric (possibly surveyed in survey chains or thousands of yards or royal Babylonian cubits). The first OS maps based on the new triangulation (which was metric), and with the now-familiar National Grid didn't appear to the public until after WWII. Whether or not you can get an old survey map to line up with a new survey map (or even with reality!) is not obvious. I'm not even sure if the mapping projection of the pre WWII maps is the same as today's (i.e Transverse Mercator based on the Airy 1830 spheroid). It certainly isn't WGS84 which IIRC is what FG's terrain is based on. Steve. --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Hi, David Luff schrieb: Hi folks, I happened to come across the following ebay item whilst looking for a map which caught my eye: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1937-Ordnance-Survey-Map-42-Llandudno-and-Denbigh_W0QQitemZ8403614581QQcategoryZ121824QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem It's a 1937 OS map to a reasonably hilly area of the UK, and appears to have quite detailed contours. All the information I can find suggests that Crown Copyright persists in OS products for 50 years from the date of publication, suggesting that it might be possible to extract freely usable elevation data from such maps, admittedly not up-to-date but likely to be much denser than the 3-arcsec SRTM. IANAL, but you might be even better off than you think. At least here in Germany, courts seem to consider only the map itself (its presentation) to be protected by copyright but not the base data (such as elevation isolines, roadlines, etc.), as the base data itself represents reality and does not lend itself to creativity (persönliche geistige Schöpfung or personal mental creation), which is a basic requirement for copyright protection according to German copyright law. I know of one specific case where a map created by a consortium of communitities was scanned and vectorised by a private map creator to create a new map and sell that. Germany's federal court of law (BGH) specifically said that this action is legal, even if deliberately introduced errors are vectorised as well (http://www.jurpc.de/rechtspr/19990054.htm, German decision) You may have to check whether similar conditions apply to this specific map and Crown Copyright. I repeat: I am not a lawyer ;-) Cheers, Ralf --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid0944bid$1720dat1642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Ralf Gerlich wrote: IANAL, but you might be even better off than you think. At least here in Germany, courts seem to consider only the map itself (its presentation) to be protected by copyright but not the base data (such as elevation isolines, roadlines, etc.), as the base data itself represents reality and does not lend itself to creativity (persönliche geistige Schöpfung or personal mental creation), which is a basic requirement for copyright protection according to German copyright law. Do that in the UK and you'll be very heavily stomped on by the OS lawyers. You want the data, you need to survey it yourself, or buy it (and then there'll likely be restrictions on use). You may have to check whether similar conditions apply to this specific map and Crown Copyright. I repeat: I am not a lawyer ;-) They don't :-) If they did then there'd be no reason for http://www.openstreetmap.org to exist. Jon --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
On Wednesday 12 April 2006 20:23, Jon Stockill wrote: Ralf Gerlich wrote: IANAL, but you might be even better off than you think. At least here in Germany, courts seem to consider only the map itself (its presentation) to be protected by copyright but not the base data (such as elevation isolines, roadlines, etc.), as the base data itself represents reality and does not lend itself to creativity (persönliche geistige Schöpfung or personal mental creation), which is a basic requirement for copyright protection according to German copyright law. Do that in the UK and you'll be very heavily stomped on by the OS lawyers. You want the data, you need to survey it yourself, or buy it (and then there'll likely be restrictions on use). You may have to check whether similar conditions apply to this specific map and Crown Copyright. I repeat: I am not a lawyer ;-) They don't :-) If they did then there'd be no reason for http://www.openstreetmap.org to exist. Jon Actually, I'm pretty sure that Ralf is right even within the UK - it's only the representation of the data that can be copyrighted - not the data itself. The data is there for anyone to collect so it is not possible to prove the origin of the data. There have been rumours that the OS introduced deliberate errors in their maps so that they could be used to identify 'copiers' but quite apart from the fact that this would prove nothing (because it doesn't preclude someone else doing exactly the same thing or simply making a coincidental mistake) the OS also insists quite strongly that is has never, and will never introduce data error. However, have a look at http://publicgeodata.org/Home for the latest bad news... LeeE --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid0944bid$1720dat1642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Use of old maps
Lee Elliott wrote: On Wednesday 12 April 2006 20:23, Jon Stockill wrote: Ralf Gerlich wrote: IANAL, but you might be even better off than you think. At least here in Germany, courts seem to consider only the map itself (its presentation) to be protected by copyright but not the base data (such as elevation isolines, roadlines, etc.), as the base data itself represents reality and does not lend itself to creativity (persönliche geistige Schöpfung or personal mental creation), which is a basic requirement for copyright protection according to German copyright law. Do that in the UK and you'll be very heavily stomped on by the OS lawyers. You want the data, you need to survey it yourself, or buy it (and then there'll likely be restrictions on use). You may have to check whether similar conditions apply to this specific map and Crown Copyright. I repeat: I am not a lawyer ;-) They don't :-) If they did then there'd be no reason for http://www.openstreetmap.org to exist. Jon Actually, I'm pretty sure that Ralf is right even within the UK - it's only the representation of the data that can be copyrighted - not the data itself. The data is there for anyone to collect so it is not possible to prove the origin of the data. There have been rumours that the OS introduced deliberate errors in their maps so that they could be used to identify 'copiers' but quite apart from the fact that this would prove nothing (because it doesn't preclude someone else doing exactly the same thing or simply making a coincidental mistake) the OS also insists quite strongly that is has never, and will never introduce data error. Think again: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Copyright_Easter_Eggs However, have a look at http://publicgeodata.org/Home Definitely worth your support. Jon --- This SF.Net email is sponsored by xPML, a groundbreaking scripting language that extends applications into web and mobile media. Attend the live webcast and join the prime developer group breaking into this new coding territory! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnkkid=110944bid=241720dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
