Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
Hi Petr. Am Donnerstag 06 März 2008 14:50 schrieb Petr Gotthard: Hi Oliver, the HLA specifications (IEEE 1516) are not free, that's a disadvantage. However there are open-source HLA run-time environments (e.g. http://www.cert.fr/CERTI), so it's not necessary to implement whole new HLA run-time environment. Regarding the multiplayer in FlightGear I see two options: 1) Either to implement a FlightGear proprietary protocol for multiplayer with a gateway to HLA, or 2) to actually use native HLA as a multiplayer protocol. I see no point in implementing our own protocol and an additional gateway, when we can directly use HLA. As long as we can implement and redistribute the federate code under GPL (or compliant license) we can make flightgear act as a HLA federate and use an open-source RTI (instead of fgms). Regards, Oliver - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
On March 6, 2008 08:50:46 am Petr Gotthard wrote: Hi Oliver, the HLA specifications (IEEE 1516) are not free, that's a disadvantage. However there are open-source HLA run-time environments (e.g. http://www.cert.fr/CERTI), so it's not necessary to implement whole new HLA run-time environment. You will still need specifications std1516.1-2000 and std1516.2-2000 to implement a federate with proper interface to the RTI, as I have just found out. ;-) Ampere - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
On March 7, 2008 02:53:32 pm Ampere K. wrote: On March 6, 2008 08:50:46 am Petr Gotthard wrote: Hi Oliver, the HLA specifications (IEEE 1516) are not free, that's a disadvantage. However there are open-source HLA run-time environments (e.g. http://www.cert.fr/CERTI), so it's not necessary to implement whole new HLA run-time environment. You will still need specifications std1516.1-2000 and std1516.2-2000 to implement a federate with proper interface to the RTI, as I have just found out. ;-) Ampere After some hunting, I came across lecture notes on HLA here: http://www.ecst.csuchico.edu/~hla/courses.html Ampere - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
Hi Oliver, the HLA specifications (IEEE 1516) are not free, that's a disadvantage. However there are open-source HLA run-time environments (e.g. http://www.cert.fr/CERTI), so it's not necessary to implement whole new HLA run-time environment. Regarding the multiplayer in FlightGear I see two options: 1) Either to implement a FlightGear proprietary protocol for multiplayer with a gateway to HLA, or 2) to actually use native HLA as a multiplayer protocol. The solution 1) means a new protocol and a new server (updated fgms) needs to be implemented, but the implementation requires no IEEE standards and the solution doesn't depend on a 3rd party framework. The solution 2) doesn't require any new protocol nor HLA gateway to be implemented (HLA RTI will be used instead of fgms), but introduces an additional dependency on a 3rd party software. What would you think: proprietary fgms with HLA gateway, or native HLA? Best Regards, Petr __ Od: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Komu: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Datum: 04.03.2008 23:22 Předmět: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayercompliant with HLA Hi Petr. I (as the author of fgms) would be pretty much interrested to implement fgms as part of a HLA infrastructur. What detained me from going that way is, that I found no free (as is free beer) documentation on HLA specifications and the quite complex structure (too complex for a one-man-show). Additionaly I'm not sure about license issues involed. Are we allowed to publish all parts of (our) HLA infrastructur under the GPL (which will kind of undermine cash-flow of documentation providers like the IEEE)? - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
Hi Petr. I (as the author of fgms) would be pretty much interrested to implement fgms as part of a HLA infrastructur. What detained me from going that way is, that I found no free (as is free beer) documentation on HLA specifications and the quite complex structure (too complex for a one-man-show). Additionaly I'm not sure about license issues involed. Are we allowed to publish all parts of (our) HLA infrastructur under the GPL (which will kind of undermine cash-flow of documentation providers like the IEEE)? On Dienstag, 4. März 2008, Petr Gotthard wrote: Dear FlightGear developers,(a short introduction first: I'm a newcomer to FlightGear, my professional profile can be found at http://www.linkedin.com/in/gotthard) May I ask whether you would be interested on striving to make FlightGear compliant with the US DoD High Level Architecture (HLA)? It could make FlightGear more attractive. I found that 1) several FlightGear multiplayer server feature requests at http://sourceforge.net/projects/fgms suggest to introduce - subscription-based property management - customizable set of propagated properties - more efficient data propagation mechanism - global status for date/time, weather, AI object positions 2) also the description of A New Architecture for FlightGear Flight Simulator proposes a distributed FlightGear architecture, which would allow all users to see the same AI objectshttp://wiki.flightgear.org/flightgear_wiki/images/1/1e/New_FG_archit ecture.pdf I believe that especially the HLA Declaration Management and Data Distrib ution Management perfectly match the above mentioned demands.Just look at Fig.2 in http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dominique.canazzi/paper.html. It's nothing that can be achieved in a few days, but I think it's feasible. To have a perfect solution we'd need to (probably in this order) - turn the FlightGear multiplayer server into a HLA RTI (run-time environment) - implement the multiplayer protocol according to HLA standards - factor out (extract) the non-aircraft objects (weather, AI objects, ATC server, etc.) to enable global status What is your opinion? I want to start developing a HLA RTI first, so (if you're interested) there will be plenty of time to discuss the requirements and architectural issues. One answer in advance: I've seen an idea to extend FlightGear to support the DIS protocol (a HLA predecessor and competitor). I believe that HLA is more suitable for this purpose because it implements Data Distribution Management. Best Regards,Petr - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA
I read the paper, below, on the FlightGear wiki. Very interesting. We've toyed with the idea of an FDM server for a while, and there was even some work done on JSBSim towards making that happen. Recently, HDWysong has added the capability to use FlightGear as a visual front end for JSBSim as a separate, scripted application. It certainly would be a huge paradigm shift. Jon From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Petr Gotthard Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 1:26 PM To: flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: [Flightgear-devel] Suggestion to make FlightGear multiplayer compliant with HLA Dear FlightGear developers, (a short introduction first: I'm a newcomer to FlightGear, my professional profile can be found at http://www.linkedin.com/in/gotthard http://www.linkedin.com/in/gotthard) May I ask whether you would be interested on striving to make FlightGear compliant with the US DoD High Level Architecture (HLA)? It could make FlightGear more attractive. I found that 1) several FlightGear multiplayer server feature requests at http://sourceforge.net/projects/fgms suggest to introduce - subscription-based property management - customizable set of propagated properties - more efficient data propagation mechanism - global status for date/time, weather, AI object positions 2) also the description of A New Architecture for FlightGear Flight Simulator proposes a distributed FlightGear architecture, which would allow all users to see the same AI objects http://wiki.flightgear.org/flightgear_wiki/images/1/1e/New_FG_architecture.p df I believe that especially the HLA Declaration Management and Data Distributio n Management perfectly match the above mentioned demands. Just look at Fig.2 in http://pagesperso-orange.fr/dominique.canazzi/paper.html. It's nothing that can be achieved in a few days, but I think it's feasible. To have a perfect solution we'd need to (probably in this order) - turn the FlightGear multiplayer server into a HLA RTI (run-time envir onment) - implement the multiplayer protocol according to HLA standards - factor out (extract) the non-aircraft objects (weather, AI objects, ATC server, etc.) to enable global status What is your opinion? I want to start developing a HLA RTI first, so (if you're interested) there will be plenty of time to discuss the requirements and architectural issues. One answer in advance: I've seen an idea to extend FlightGear to support the DIS protocol (a HLA predecessor and c ompetitor). I believe that HLA is more suitable for this purpose because it implements Data Distribution Management. Best Regards, Petr - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Microsoft Defy all challenges. Microsoft(R) Visual Studio 2008. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/vse012070mrt/direct/01/___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
