Re: [Foundation-l] Announcing Eugene Eric Kim as the Strategy Plan Project Manager
Hoi, With some 50% of our traffic in other languages then English it is obvious that languages, internationalisation and localisation are of a profound importance to the WMF. There are over 250 Wikipedias and we support over 300 linguistic entities at translatewiki.net where our internationalisation and localisation is located. When a strategic plan for the WMF is to be made, addressing the needs for these other languages is consequently as important as the needs for the English projects. When you look at the investments and the projects of the WMF, the other 50% hardly feature. The Usability Initiative is about improving the English Wikipedia, the new project for Commosn is to improve the ability of getting images in while you need to know English to get images out of Commons. When we get 100.000 images from the Tropenmuseum, how will we support Indonesian and English when the annotations are Dutch? What if there are over 200 GLAM in the Netherlands alone ?? The LocalisationUpdate extension is imho the most relevant piece of software to improve the localisation of our projects and to motivate our localisers, it was developed outside of the WMF. The MediaWiki software does not support African languages well. We know what the problem is but we fail African languages. When I ask for measurments, I ask for numbers that show how the WMF implements its strategy for other languages. How long does it take for localisations to go life. What is the relation between the popularity of our projects for a language and the localisation. What are is the amount of WMF money spend on exclusively English language projects compared to the amount of money exclusively earmarked for the other languages. How many words are used in the annual reports on issues that are English vs the issues for the other languages. I have been pushing the cause of the other languages for quite some time. I would like to see that the other languages have as much traction as English in the WMF because I believe the other projects have a potential that is bigger then the English Wikipedia. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/14 Eugene Eric Kim ee...@blueoxen.com Hi Gerard, Thanks for the welcome! There are really two questions here: The importance of language, internationalization, and localization in the context of the plan itself, and the importance of all of these things in the context of the strategic process. They'll be important for both. What specifically are you interested in measuring? =Eugene On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, There is one question that is obvious for me to ask.. What will the role be of language, internationalisation and localisation in the strategy of the WMF and how will it be possible to measure this ? Thanks, GerardM PS Welcome -- == Eugene Eric Kim http://xri.net/=eekim Blue Oxen Associates http://www.blueoxen.com/ == ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English. When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Hi, I think the questions to ask are: * How many Indonesians speak Dutch, compared to those that speak English? * When you try to translate to Indonesian (a laudable goal), will you have more chances to find translators with Dutch and English, rather than with just Dutch? The (obvious) answers aside, if this is going to be a bulk upload, maybe it should be planned: * Gather all images, descriptions, and metadata on a (private) machine * Find a distinct set of often used key terms / tags * Translate those into English (and Indonesian, if you have a translator ready) * Assign (English) categories to tags * Build image descriptions for upload with both Dutch and English terms I got another, loosely idea: Could we use the language templates in the descriptions to build a missing matrix of translations, for translators? I speak English and German; I would like to see images that only have a German description, and translate it to English. A special site (toolserver?) could show me the image and the German description, I enter the English one in a text box, and go to a page with everything prepared for me, just click save and be done. Cheers, Magnus On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English. When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world. While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English. When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to help Spanish speakers? Or Japanese speakers? When you translate to English, you facilitate translation into other languages too. I'm not saying translate to English and let it be, I'm saying translate it to English to aid in retranslation. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Magnus Manske magnusman...@googlemail.com wrote:
[...]
I got another, loosely idea: Could we use the language templates in
the descriptions to build a missing matrix of translations, for
translators? I speak English and German; I would like to see images
that only have a German description, and translate it to English. A
special site (toolserver?) could show me the image and the German
description, I enter the English one in a text box, and go to a page
with everything prepared for me, just click save and be done.
Go ahead: Toolserver's Templatetiger database has - though
rather raw - data for Commons (cf.
URI:http://toolserver.org/~kolossos/templatetiger/tt-table4.php?template=Informationlang=commonswikiwhere=is=).
Problems I see:
- Tagging those pictures where the language of the descrip-
tion is not specified (cf. [[File:Quail1.PNG]] (English)
vs. [[File:Helsinkitram.jpg]] ((probably :-)) German).
- Dealing with all the pictures that do not use
{{Information}}.
Tim
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Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal. From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:23:36 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world. While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English. When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in addition to their native tongue, which allows them to translate it. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l And when something is uploaded in Dutch, how do you expect this to
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
Hoi, OK, there are *many* pictures of a marc'h on Commons... Now pretend that you cannot find what this is in English. Try to find it on Commons. Alternatively, you might want to look for a picture of a ლომი. There are only 4,742,435 files at Commons, so just looking at the next random file will help you at some stage. Thanks, Gerard 2009/7/15 Geoffrey Plourde geo.p...@yahoo.com This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal. From: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 12:23:36 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up Hoi, The current practice is to upload large collections with a category that is specific to the material it came from. New categories are matched to existing categories and they are merged. So uploading them as they are IS nothing new. The problem is that when material is included that is not English, it means that it originates from outside of the Anglo Saxon world and thereby helps address the existing bias towards the anglo saxon world. While material in Dutch does not help the English, the Spanish, the Japanese, it only means that people that only speak Spanish or Japanse will find that to them Commons does not provide any service, add any value. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, How does it help to find material in Commons when you do not know English ?? Practically it is nice that we spend money on improving the upload facility of MediaWiki. In the end it makes no difference when you cannot find the images. Functionally Commons is useless as a consequence to all the people who do not speak English. When you reply PLEASE remember what the Wikimedia Foundation is there for.. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 Chad innocentkil...@gmail.com On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Gerard Meijssengerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, Why should the term base be translated ? Is it not more important to be gained by getting all this material in the public domain ?? I do however agree with you. All the material that is about Indonesia should be translated to Indonesian. For them it is very much the opening up of material that is part of their cultural history. Translating it into English does not make it easier for Indonesians to find this material. Thanks, GerardM 2009/7/15 John at Darkstar vac...@jeb.no At least the term base should be translated. John Gerard Meijssen wrote: Hoi, I have been in discussion with the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam about making their material available on Commons. The Tropenmuseum has an important collection on the colonial past of the Netherlands and contains a rich collection on Suriname and Indonesia. The initial talks are about 100.000 images. The annotations of this material is all in Dutch. It will come with unique identifiers back to the physical object in the Tropenmuseum and it will come with the termbase for the images; this termbase is as I understand it the equivalent of our categories. Some of the material has a partial translation in English and, this can be provided to us as well. The key issue I want to raise is that there are hundreds of museums in the Netherlands, Belgium and Suriname all using Dutch there are more museums in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Lichtenstein who speak German While we aim to improve our front end to allow for easy uploads, we do not provide language support. Language support will help people find pictures in their language and will help the matching of categories into other languages. Thanks, GerardM ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l There is certainly a value to having things in English. It aids translation into more languages. It's a lot harder to find people who speak Dutch and Spanish, French and Russian or Greek and Japanese. You're more likely to find people who speak English in
Re: [Foundation-l] A heads up
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Geoffrey Plourdegeo.p...@yahoo.com wrote: This is pictures right? I fail to see how pictures aren't useable to everyone, as they are universal. files* It's not about *using* the files, it's about *using* Wikimedia Commons. It's great that we can use pictures because they universal, but people can't find them unless they speak English (categories, picture names, a lot of captions are only in English). I think this is what Gerard is saying. -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
