Re: [Foundation-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wiktionary

2010-02-28 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
One of the things we did at OmegaWiki was create a proof of concept
demonstrating the categories of Commons using a dictionary.. The category
horse would be translated to paard for the Dutch and Pferd for the
Germans.

In this way we demonstrated that having dictionary content in a database
format allows for application of that data for other purposes.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On 28 February 2010 02:01, Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com wrote:

 OmegaWiki was originally intended to be a multilingual Wiktionary
 project...

 http://www.omegawiki.org

 Has there been any thought on bringing it back somehow into the Wikimedia
 fold?

 Thanks,
 Pharos

 On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote:
  I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the
  requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they
  need wider discussion for concluding them.
 
  One of such requests is for multilingual Wiktionary [2]. Please,
  discuss here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to
  wiktionary-l to poke those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at
  the page [2].
 
  [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages
  [2] -
 http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_multilingual
 
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[Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing

2010-02-28 Thread church.of.emacs.ml
Hi,

The Werner Icking Music Archive has announced it's no longer capable of
coping with the large amount of visitors to the site. They are
considering hosting the content somewhere else.
This archive contains much sheet music of public domain music. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Icking_Music_Archive
http://icking-music-archive.org

I'm not sure if the content they published is in the public domain or
under a free license (by WMF's definition), but it seems worthwhile to
examine this in detail. Perhaps even offering to (temporarily?) host the
website (readonly or allow editing?) or convert it into a new Wiki
project (which – without doubt – would be a huge amount of work).

What do you think?

Regards,
--User:Church of emacs



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Re: [Foundation-l] I'm here to request a new Wikimedia project

2010-02-28 Thread Magnus Manske
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Tyler programmer...@comcast.net wrote:
 Dear folks at Wikimedia,
 Thank you for existing! You are responsible for the encyclopedia I use every 
 time I need an encyclopedia! So, you publish an encyclopedia (Wikipedia), a 
 dictionary (Wiktionary), an archive of news articles (Wikinews), online 
 classes (Wikiversity), online textbooks (Wikibooks), online non-educational 
 books (Wikisource), lists of quotes by people or shows or whatever 
 (Wikiquote), an encyclopedia of living things (Wiki Species), a meta-wiki 
 that no one knows the reason for (Meta), a place where all files on the wikis 
 are placed (The Commons), and a site I don't know why the deuce it exists 
 (The Wikimedia incubator).  I was just wondering, how would you like to start 
 an almanac, guys? That would be neat, a wiki almanac.


http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinac

was submitted 2005

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Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing

2010-02-28 Thread Casey Brown
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:42 AM, church.of.emacs.ml
church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote:
 convert it into a new Wiki project (which – without doubt – would be a huge 
 amount of work).


If we did that, couldn't we just use Commons/Wikisource?  I think
Wikisource already has quite a bit of music there.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Sheet_music

-- 
Casey Brown
Cbrown1023

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Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing

2010-02-28 Thread David Gerard
On 28 February 2010 12:42, church.of.emacs.ml
church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote:

 The Werner Icking Music Archive has announced it's no longer capable of
 coping with the large amount of visitors to the site. They are
 considering hosting the content somewhere else.
 This archive contains much sheet music of public domain music. See:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Icking_Music_Archive
 http://icking-music-archive.org


The Internet Archive brags of being able to swallow and serve large
archives. They or ibiblio would be ideal hosts.

But yes, any help we can supply would be most excellent.


- d.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing

2010-02-28 Thread Laura Hale
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:31 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 28 February 2010 12:42, church.of.emacs.ml


 The Internet Archive brags of being able to swallow and serve large
 archives. They or ibiblio would be ideal hosts.

 But yes, any help we can supply would be most excellent.


They may brag about it but trying to get in touch with them about acquiring
projects can be daunting and hard.

Sincerely,
Laura Hale
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[Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread MZMcBride
It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
the English Wikipedia?

Thanks,

MZMcBride
z...@mzmcbride.com



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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 03:26 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
 It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
 the English Wikipedia?


If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note 
before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my 
talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day. 
There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help 
either the coding or the communicating about it.

As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development 
progress in detail here:

http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157

As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be 
deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once 
we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how 
close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to 
different hardware. That site is currently running on the production 
cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there 
without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working 
to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production 
environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test 
there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia. 
Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a 
lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while.

As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions 
of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community 
can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.

William


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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread MZMcBride
William Pietri wrote:
 If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note
 before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my
 talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day.
 There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help
 either the coding or the communicating about it.

When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
talk about which forum should be used and so forth.

 As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development
 progress in detail here:
 
 http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157

The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a
ever-shifting goalpost. Launch on English Wikipedia has a target date of
when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't
particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an
entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first
place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar.

 As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be
 deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once
 we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how
 close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they
haven't been done.

I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened
an empty box.

Point to me what I'm missing.

 The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
 different hardware. That site is currently running on the production
 cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there
 without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?

 As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
 of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
 can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.

When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
running the project?

MZMcBride
z...@mzmcbride.com



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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Nathan
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:32 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
 William Pietri wrote:
 If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note
 before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my
 talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day.
 There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help
 either the coding or the communicating about it.

 When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
 pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
 wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
 talk about which forum should be used and so forth.

 As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development
 progress in detail here:

 http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157

 The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a
 ever-shifting goalpost. Launch on English Wikipedia has a target date of
 when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't
 particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an
 entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first
 place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar.

 As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be
 deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once
 we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how
 close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia.

 What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
 All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
 all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they
 haven't been done.

 I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
 points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened
 an empty box.

 Point to me what I'm missing.

 The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
 different hardware. That site is currently running on the production
 cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there
 without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs.

 Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
 about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
 servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?

 As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
 of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
 can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.

 When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
 is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
 running the project?

 MZMcBride
 z...@mzmcbride.com





Have to ask, what disruptively unilateral actions are you
contemplating if you don't get exactly the action you seek? Start up
another website to collaborate on how to circumvent those lazy jamokes
who aren't running at your speed? Coordinate the deletion of the rest
of the wiki?

On behalf of whom do you speak, to make demands of someone who doesn't
work for you? Other people share your frustration, but perhaps they
were wise when they didn't take to the mailing lists to swear at the
developers.

Nathan

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Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Mike.lifeguard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
 The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
 different hardware.

OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this
rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits
from this team have I missed?

- -Mike

PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party
site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful.
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eLoAn3tE56CX3tpCUUctqKwibmsgGc8h
=gkOb
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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Alex
On 2/28/2010 10:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
 William Pietri wrote:
 As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions
 of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community
 can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go.
 
 When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
 is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
 running the project?
 

I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely
until FlaggedRevs is finally ready? Who are they responsible to, and
why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities
(like, creating a plan or a deadline)?

Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than
use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and
that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one,
hosted on a 3rd party website. As far as I can tell, there's only been
one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the
techblog post in January that had little new information.

Its been more than 4 months, and we haven't been able to get even a
vague timeline yet. IMO, setting a deadline, missing it, and explaining
why it was missed is better than not setting a deadline until you know
you can meet it (which kind of defeats the purpose of setting it).

-- 
Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man)

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Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Aphaia
Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login
took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once
it Godot. FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to
realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait
for in a less pain.

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Mike.lifeguard mike.lifegu...@gmail.com wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
 The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to
 different hardware.

 OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this
 rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits
 from this team have I missed?

 - -Mike

 PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party
 site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful.
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

 iEYEARECAAYFAkuLPjoACgkQst0AR/DaKHt+gwCgo8dVyxHBALMY3Ppxb5w0GZ8x
 eLoAn3tE56CX3tpCUUctqKwibmsgGc8h
 =gkOb
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-

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-- 
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 07:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
 When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or
 pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being
 wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can
 talk about which forum should be used and so forth.


There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I 
already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it.

My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My 
long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress. 
You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is 
why I mentioned it.


 What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009.
 All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly
 all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they
 haven't been done.

 I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0
 points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened
 an empty box.

 Point to me what I'm missing.


Seeing a Deliver button means that Aaron, the developer, thinks the 
item is done, but it is not yet visible to others. Once we have a test 
server where people can look at things, then they are delivered. When 
some non-developer (e.g., me, or Howie Fung of the usability team) 
verifies that they are actually done, only then do we mark them as done.


 Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking
 about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the
 servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound?


Like a recipe for breaking one of the world's top ten websites, an 
outcome I would rather avoid.

There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break 
either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping. 
This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site. 
Measure twice, cut once, works even better in software than carpentry.

Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least 
judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site. The usability 
team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what motivated this 
latest round of changes.

As important as it is to get FlaggedRevs out for the community to try, I 
think it's even more important to release it in a form that will yield a 
successful trial. If we release something that's not up to snuff, the 
community may reject it for reasons that have nothing to do with the 
actual idea, an outcome nobody wants.


 When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there
 is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
 running the project?


There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this 
project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project 
dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking 
and measuring real, fine-grained progress.) I explain more here:

http://techblog.wikimedia.org/2010/01/flagged-revisions-your-questions-answered/

It's a pretty standard approach in any of the [[Agile Software 
Development]] processes.

As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I 
ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity. If 
everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not aware 
of any impediment to public release right after that decision. If, as 
seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be able to 
estimate development time and project dates.

As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most 
directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think 
we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that.

However, in my experience everybody involved is smart, talented, and 
very committed to the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation. Everybody is 
also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority project. 
Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy 
motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this 
done, I ask you not to do that again.

William


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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote:
 Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy
 motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this
 done, I ask you not to do that again.

Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be,
he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if
you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences
will come from your boss, not the community, though.)

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread MZMcBride
I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker is
where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not marked
as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
exactly?

(And isn't this yet another reason you should be using something less
brain-dead than Bugzilla. I never thought it was possible to find worse
issue tracking software, but leave it to Wikimedia)

William Pietri wrote:
 There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I
 already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it.
 
 My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My
 long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress.
 You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is
 why I mentioned it.

Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done
their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a
management issue. And I'm swearing at the management (see e-mail subject
line).
 
 There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break
 either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping.
 This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site.
 Measure twice, cut once, works even better in software than carpentry.

Actually, historically that hasn't been the trend. The site has been broken
countless times, not that that's a goal anyone should be aiming for. I
suppose it's as good an excuse as any for the complete mishandling of this
project, though. (In your defense, this was a clusterfuck before you
arrived, so you don't get the full blame here.)

 Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least
 judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site.

I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
site http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org and I've been the one doing the
admin promotions on there since September 2009.

Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?

 The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what
 motivated this latest round of changes.

Where are the comments from the Usability team? I've been idling in their
IRC channel for the past few months. Here's every mention of flagged that
I have: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/184170/

Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
I'm curious.

And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal
Tracker? I don't.

 There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this
 project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project
 dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking
 and measuring real, fine-grained progress.)

I can't say unequivocally that Pivotal Tracker is the worst issue tracker to
exist, but it's certainly the most user-unfriendly I've personally ever
encountered.

 As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I
 ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity.

You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project? If
not, what exactly do you do day-to-day and who is in charge of getting
FlaggedRevisions enabled on the English Wikipedia?

 If everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not
 aware of any impediment to public release right after that decision.

Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that
others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it
was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced
that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of
user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that
turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next
boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ?

 If, as seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be
 able to estimate development time and project dates.

You've said in this very thread that there is no specific deadline. Now
you're saying the opposite? Estimating development time and project dates
sounds like a deadline to me. Why can't we have one of those? Why can't
there be a specific date by which FlaggedRevisions will be enabled on the
English Wikipedia. That's what I'm after.

 As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most
 directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think
 we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that.

Is Danese alive? I haven't seen her on a public mailing list, IRC channel,
or wiki since she was hired. At all.

 Everybody is  also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority
 project. 

High-profile, high-priority? This has been in development for years and
years 

Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
Hi, Alex. Good questions.

On 02/28/2010 08:10 PM, Alex wrote:
   When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if 
  there
   is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those
   running the project?
   
  
 I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely
 until FlaggedRevs is finally ready? Who are they responsible to, and
 why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities
 (like, creating a plan or a deadline)?


As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming 
Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and 
which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in 
the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary 
deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a 
date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.

Regarding incentives, I believe that this project borrowed Howie part 
time from the Usability Team, who will welcome having him back when 
we're done. For my part, I certainly have an reason to get this done 
soon. Like everybody, I thought this would go quicker, and I gave WMF a 
70% discount from my normal rate, because heck, I love Wikipedia. But 
each week this goes on means a slightly larger hole in my 2010 revenue 
picture. A worthwhile one, to be sure, but I'd still like to keep it as 
small as possible.

 Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than
 use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and
 that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one,
 hosted on a 3rd party website.

See my explanation elsewhere in the thread, but basically, I'm not 
tracking bugs, and Bugzilla is a poor fit for the approach I thought 
best. I used the fastest-to-use tool that suits that approach, so as to 
maximize the time spent on actual work. Nobody has mentioned an issue 
with it until now. If people would rather I also tracked a bunch of 
tickets in Bugzilla we can talk about that, and I'm eager to hear other 
suggestions for ways to increase transparency.

 As far as I can tell, there's only been
 one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the
 techblog post in January that had little new information.


I've reported when I thought I had something to report, and I've 
certainly answered direct questions from people. I'm definitely planning 
to announce boldly when we actually have something to show, and I'll do 
that far and wide.

Although I considered it, it didn't seem useful to send out a hey, 
still working update in the meantime. Partly because there's not a 
great venue for it, and partly because the subsequent roiling of the 
waters takes up time and energy I'd rather see productively used. But 
mainly because it's hard to do that without throwing under the bus 
whatever person or group is currently the bottleneck. And not only is 
that unfair, but it's terrible for both morale and productivity, so it 
seemed like waiting for a labs update was the best option.

I'm open to suggestions, though, so definitely drop me a line (perhaps 
off list?) if you want to discuss something.

William

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 08:43 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
 On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietriwill...@scissor.com  wrote:

 Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy
 motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this
 done, I ask you not to do that again.
  
 Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be,
 he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if
 you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences
 will come from your boss, not the community, though.)


Well, in my experience, when somebody starts out with what the fuck 
and ends up talking about consequences, it is rarely a purely academic 
inquiry into organizational practices. But if I read it wrong, I'd be 
glad to apologize.

I think the people working on this (Aaron and Howie in particular) are 
both talented and hardworking, so I feel protective of them. I'd like 
them to spend a long time working for the Wikimedia Foundation, and 
anything that might push against that is going to rile me up some.

William


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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote:
 As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming
 Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and
 which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in
 the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary
 deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a
 date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.

You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have
produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to
how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be
done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication,
and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be trying to
measure productivity, you should just be measuring it.

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Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Mike.lifeguard
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
 I've reported when I thought I had something to report

I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
accomplishments because there haven't been any.

Perhaps you're actually saying that the work done so far is great and
wonderful and massive in quantity, but isn't the sort of thing people
care to hear about? If that's the case, I think this thread clearly
cries out for people to hear what you've been doing.

- -Mike
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkuLUl0ACgkQst0AR/DaKHtUywCdGBtpYun9ILUDrxItIk5ac3Ou
ZPcAoNarKmSAfUrOdtUAn2Y8/fvcJi8B
=V3qu
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
 I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker is
 where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
 Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not marked
 as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
 exactly?


Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that 
people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't 
actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently 
like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work.



 My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My
 long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress.
 You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is
 why I mentioned it.
  
 Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done
 their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a
 management issue. And I'm swearing at the management (see e-mail subject
 line).


I have not noticed that swearing at other people noticeably improves 
their performance either, but I am specifically concerned that the team 
members will be affected by your tone, whether or not you mean it for 
any specific individual.

If you'd like to swear at me specifically, fine, whatever, but please do 
it off list. In public, and specifically when people who are working 
hard might take it amiss, I ask you to speak politely and 
professionally. Team morale is important to team productivity.



 I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
 sitehttp://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org  and I've been the one doing the
 admin promotions on there since September 2009.

 Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?


Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages:

http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhancement_requests
http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page

Plus various direct communication from Erik when I joined the project 
about the current state of things. And whatever else Howie dug up as he 
looked into improving the interfaces.


 The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what
 motivated this latest round of changes.
  
 Where are the comments from the Usability team?


We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster.

 Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
 I'm curious.


Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done 
and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now.

 And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal
 Tracker? I don't.



No. The only thing we care about in the end is delivered software, so 
that's all Pivotal Tracker tracks. Upstream artifacts are tracked via 
email and verbally.

 As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I
 ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity.
  
 You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project?


Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through, 
not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's 
ultimately in charge.

I expected things to be released before this point, and indeed I 
previously expected to be able to release on the current Labs site 
without issue. Having been surprised before, I hope but do not yet plan 
that I won't be surprised again. I could make up dates, or I could press 
other people to make up dates and give them to you, but I believe that 
to be the sort of BS project management that gets a lot of perfectly 
fine projects into needles hot water.

When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence 
in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not 
going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying 
the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable.

 Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that
 others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it
 was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced
 that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of
 user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that
 turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next
 boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ?



I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this 
project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to 
get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us 
benefits by not getting it done.


 If, as seems likely, there are some further 

Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Anthony
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:59 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:

 High-profile, high-priority? This has been in development for years and
 years and still isn't finished. What on Earth happens to the low
 priorities?


They get done before anyone comes up with a reason to delay them :).
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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 09:27 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
 On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietriwill...@scissor.com  wrote:

 As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming
 Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and
 which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in
 the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary
 deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a
 date. If you have further questions on this, let me know.
  
 You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have
 produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to
 how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be
 done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication,
 and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be trying to
 measure productivity, you should just be measuring it.


That's an entirely reasonable approach, but there are two wrinkles.

One, I underestimated the difficulty of releasing to a production-like 
environment. And until we have done that, we can't tell the difference 
between the things we hope are done and the things that are actually 
done. I intend to only measure the latter; measuring the former as if 
they were done is chancy.  I am pressing vigorously for us to be able to 
do that soon, but there's only so much pressing you can do without 
long-term harm.

Two, most software projects are inevitably exploratory. The difference 
between what we think we need and what we actually ended up needing is 
often large. So I could project dates based on all of the needs that we 
have discovered, and then somebody in the community will look at the 
software and say, Hey, what about X? And X will be some entirely 
reasonable thing that it is now obvious that we need. So I think it's 
better to release early and often and be open about the fact that it 
won't be really done until everybody (or, y'know, enough of everybody) 
agrees that we're now really done, or at least feel comfortable 
projecting that we're done.

But if you'd like to make your own projections, all the data for the 
development work is exportable from Pivotal Tracker. If I thought I 
could take that data, or any other data, and give people a real date, 
one that they could have confidence in, I would be ecstatic to do so. 
But I can't, and I won't just give a BS date to get everybody off my back.

William

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Brian J Mingus
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.comwrote:

 On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
  I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker
 is
  where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at,
  Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not
 marked
  as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up
  exactly?
 

 Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that
 people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't
 actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently
 like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work.


I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority
project. My 2 cents.
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[Foundation-l] The name Old Wikisource

2010-02-28 Thread Milos Rancic
(Please, continue to discuss at foundation-l.)

I think that the term Old Wikisource and wiki abbreviation
oldwikisource is really bad for the purpose of Wikisource (hosting
the rest of material). Something like Multilingual Wikisource
would be better (or whatever).

So, may I ask fold from Wikisource to find a better name, and fill the
but at Bugzilla for changing the abbreviation?

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Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:

 I've reported when I thought I had something to report
  
 I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
 accomplishments because there haven't been any.


We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show 
it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress 
report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't 
seem so helpful.

When I put up the last blog post, we did have something accomplished: a 
clear list of all the things we knew were necessary to release, with 
relative estimates, and posted in a public place so others could keep 
track of the status and let us know if they thought we missed anything. 
We've since worked on them, and I promise that as soon as we have 
something to show, which I would very much like to be soon, I'll let 
everybody know.

William


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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Thomas Dalton
On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:
 I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
 of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
 just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
 problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
 problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority
 project. My 2 cents.

The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
long, though...

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread MZMcBride
William Pietri wrote:
 On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote:
 I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs
 site http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org and I've been the one doing the
 admin promotions on there since September 2009.
 
 Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about?
 
 Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages:
 
 http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhanceme
 nt_requests
 http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page

Did you, uh, happen to click those links? In the first link, the page hasn't
been edited since December 2009. The second link is almost exclusively
various users asking for adminship and me responding to them. When you said
the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least judging
by the last round of feedback on the labs site, I figured there might have
been something substantive (and recent) you were basing these comments on.
Silly me.

 We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster.

And it obliterates any possibility for a paper trail or accountability when
deadlines are missed. Though in a George W. Bush-esque style, apparently no
deadlines are being set. It's an interesting thought experiment if you
extend this don't set a deadline for projects model: that multi-million
dollar blockbuster? Due in theaters sometime, maybe.

 Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing?
 I'm curious.
 
 Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done
 and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now.

Got links? Nearly all Wikimedia-related software development has been
publicly visible since the beginning. If there's software, language, or
usability work being done, where are the links?

 You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project?
 
 Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through,
 not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's
 ultimately in charge.

This is a joke, right? This is subtle humor?

 When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence
 in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not
 going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying
 the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable.

Speed is the primary driver here? I think you're just trolling now.

 I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this
 project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to
 get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us
 benefits by not getting it done.

Honest-to-God, nobody is asking that you put a man on the moon. It's some
PHP that's conveniently already been written. Enable the damn extension,
already.

[I've omitted the pseudo-Kumbaya, we don't have any money or resources, look
at Twitter! bullshit. It's not worth a proper reply.]

MZMcBride
z...@mzmcbride.com



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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Stephen Bain
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:16 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote:

 Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working
 to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production
 environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test
 there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia.
 Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a
 lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while.

So to clarify, what is currently holding the project up is this old
server (presumably recycled from production usage), that is sitting
around waiting to be configured like a production server for testing?

-- 
Stephen Bain
stephen.b...@gmail.com

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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread William Pietri
On 02/28/2010 10:24 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote:
 On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingusbrian.min...@colorado.edu  wrote:

 I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process
 of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
 just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
 problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
 problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority
 project. My 2 cents.
  
 The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
 in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
 Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
 the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
 long, though...


Yes. I was also expecting it to be easy. Heck, we had flaggedrevs.labs 
up already, so how hard could an update be? Which is why in the blog 
post I was sunny about having something visible soon.

But for abstruse reasons, not all of which I understand personally, it 
turned out that it was not easy. It sounds like the reasons are mainly 
historical, though. Regardless, I have full faith that the people 
keeping the servers running are prioritizing this work highly, although 
-- correctly -- not as highly as keeping the existing stuff from blowing 
up. I really want FlaggedRevs deployed on enwiki, but I also want there 
to be an enwiki to deploy to.


Sleep beckons, so I'm going to give up on this thread for the night, and 
the next couple of days are heavily booked. But if people have more 
questions, please do post them; if nobody else gets to them first, I will.

And in the future people want to know about something, just drop me a 
note off list and say, Hey, William! I was wondering about X, and I'd 
bet other people are too. I'm entirely happy to keep people apprised on 
pretty much anything, but I don't want to gratuitously spam the inboxes 
of the eight zillion busy people on these lists until I have something 
useful to announce.

William


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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Brian J Mingus
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu
 wrote:
  I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the
 process
  of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you
  just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
  problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
  problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority
  project. My 2 cents.

 The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
 in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
 Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
 the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
 long, though...


Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with
the advent of that fast C-mysql dump importer. And many people can afford
those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus desktops.

But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache by
an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but not
attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going to
subject this thing to right away?
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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Brian J Mingus
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote:



 On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton 
 thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu
 wrote:
  I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the
 process
  of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If
 you
  just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no
  problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no
  problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority
  project. My 2 cents.

 The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running
 in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default
 Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep
 the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this
 long, though...


 Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with
 the advent of that fast C-mysql dump importer. And many people can afford
 those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus desktops.

 But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache
 by an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but
 not attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going
 to subject this thing to right away?


I should add - if the Toolserver is still replicating mysql that would be
the perfect place for this.
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Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread geni
On 28 February 2010 23:26, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote:
 It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on
 the English Wikipedia?

 Thanks,

 MZMcBride
 z...@mzmcbride.com

Technically I think since about Feb 4th the answer is that Danese
Cooper hasn't made it happen.

-- 
geni

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Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote:

 On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
  On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
 
  I've reported when I thought I had something to report
 
  I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
  accomplishments because there haven't been any.
 

 We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
 it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
 report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't
 seem so helpful.


Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty
years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful
software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule
many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new
version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you
have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets
you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that
your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left
wondering, What are those guys doing? When you see concrete results on a
regular basis, there’s no mystery.

http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy
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Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?

2010-02-28 Thread Anthony
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote:

 On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri will...@scissor.comwrote:

 On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote:
  On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote:
 
  I've reported when I thought I had something to report
 
  I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any
  accomplishments because there haven't been any.
 

 We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show
 it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress
 report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't
 seem so helpful.


 Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty
 years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful
 software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule
 many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new
 version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you
 have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets
 you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that
 your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left
 wondering, What are those guys doing? When you see concrete results on a
 regular basis, there’s no mystery.

 http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy


I should clarify that that quote just happened to catch my eye, and that
it's totally off-topic and unrelated to anything of importance.

Actually, in hindsight, I shouldn't be posting when I'm in my current
under-rested state.
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