Re: [Foundation-l] Discussion about proposal for multilingual Wiktionary
Hoi, One of the things we did at OmegaWiki was create a proof of concept demonstrating the categories of Commons using a dictionary.. The category horse would be translated to paard for the Dutch and Pferd for the Germans. In this way we demonstrated that having dictionary content in a database format allows for application of that data for other purposes. Thanks, GerardM On 28 February 2010 02:01, Pharos pharosofalexand...@gmail.com wrote: OmegaWiki was originally intended to be a multilingual Wiktionary project... http://www.omegawiki.org Has there been any thought on bringing it back somehow into the Wikimedia fold? Thanks, Pharos On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: I am cleaning Requests for new languages [1] at Meta. Some of the requests are clearly out of the Language committee scope, and they need wider discussion for concluding them. One of such requests is for multilingual Wiktionary [2]. Please, discuss here (at foundation-l; I am sending this message to wiktionary-l to poke those who are not at foundation-l) or on wiki at the page [2]. [1] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages [2] - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wiktionary_multilingual ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing
Hi, The Werner Icking Music Archive has announced it's no longer capable of coping with the large amount of visitors to the site. They are considering hosting the content somewhere else. This archive contains much sheet music of public domain music. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Icking_Music_Archive http://icking-music-archive.org I'm not sure if the content they published is in the public domain or under a free license (by WMF's definition), but it seems worthwhile to examine this in detail. Perhaps even offering to (temporarily?) host the website (readonly or allow editing?) or convert it into a new Wiki project (which – without doubt – would be a huge amount of work). What do you think? Regards, --User:Church of emacs signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] I'm here to request a new Wikimedia project
On Sat, Feb 27, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Tyler programmer...@comcast.net wrote: Dear folks at Wikimedia, Thank you for existing! You are responsible for the encyclopedia I use every time I need an encyclopedia! So, you publish an encyclopedia (Wikipedia), a dictionary (Wiktionary), an archive of news articles (Wikinews), online classes (Wikiversity), online textbooks (Wikibooks), online non-educational books (Wikisource), lists of quotes by people or shows or whatever (Wikiquote), an encyclopedia of living things (Wiki Species), a meta-wiki that no one knows the reason for (Meta), a place where all files on the wikis are placed (The Commons), and a site I don't know why the deuce it exists (The Wikimedia incubator). I was just wondering, how would you like to start an almanac, guys? That would be neat, a wiki almanac. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikinac was submitted 2005 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 7:42 AM, church.of.emacs.ml church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote: convert it into a new Wiki project (which – without doubt – would be a huge amount of work). If we did that, couldn't we just use Commons/Wikisource? I think Wikisource already has quite a bit of music there. http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Category:Sheet_music -- Casey Brown Cbrown1023 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing
On 28 February 2010 12:42, church.of.emacs.ml church.of.emacs...@googlemail.com wrote: The Werner Icking Music Archive has announced it's no longer capable of coping with the large amount of visitors to the site. They are considering hosting the content somewhere else. This archive contains much sheet music of public domain music. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Icking_Music_Archive http://icking-music-archive.org The Internet Archive brags of being able to swallow and serve large archives. They or ibiblio would be ideal hosts. But yes, any help we can supply would be most excellent. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Werner Icking Music Archive may be closing
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:31 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 February 2010 12:42, church.of.emacs.ml The Internet Archive brags of being able to swallow and serve large archives. They or ibiblio would be ideal hosts. But yes, any help we can supply would be most excellent. They may brag about it but trying to get in touch with them about acquiring projects can be daunting and hard. Sincerely, Laura Hale ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on the English Wikipedia? Thanks, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 03:26 PM, MZMcBride wrote: It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on the English Wikipedia? If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day. There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help either the coding or the communicating about it. As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development progress in detail here: http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157 As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia. The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. That site is currently running on the production cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs. Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while. As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
William Pietri wrote: If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day. There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help either the coding or the communicating about it. When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can talk about which forum should be used and so forth. As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development progress in detail here: http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157 The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a ever-shifting goalpost. Launch on English Wikipedia has a target date of when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar. As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia. What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009. All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they haven't been done. I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0 points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened an empty box. Point to me what I'm missing. The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. That site is currently running on the production cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs. Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound? As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go. When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those running the project? MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 10:32 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: William Pietri wrote: If people have questions like this, I'd encourage them to drop me a note before they get to the swearing-in-frustration stage. I try to check my talk page at least daily, and I must check my email 20 times a day. There's no benefit to getting wound up; surplus angst does not help either the coding or the communicating about it. When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can talk about which forum should be used and so forth. As I mentioned in the blog post, you can follow the software development progress in detail here: http://www.pivotaltracker.com/projects/46157 The primary issue with that site is that any sense of deadline is a ever-shifting goalpost. Launch on English Wikipedia has a target date of when? It looks like it was added December 16, though that information wasn't particularly easy to figure out. Which, of course, begs the question why an entirely separate layer of software was added to this project in the first place when Bugzilla was already available and familiar. As you can see, we have a bunch of completed changes that need to be deployed to an environment where we can get real feedback on them. Once we get the feedback from the community, we'll have a better idea of how close we are to releasing to the English Wikipedia. What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009. All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they haven't been done. I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0 points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened an empty box. Point to me what I'm missing. The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. That site is currently running on the production cluster, and we can't release new test versions of the software there without risk of trouble for production wikis using FlaggedRevs. Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound? As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go. When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those running the project? MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com Have to ask, what disruptively unilateral actions are you contemplating if you don't get exactly the action you seek? Start up another website to collaborate on how to circumvent those lazy jamokes who aren't running at your speed? Coordinate the deletion of the rest of the wiki? On behalf of whom do you speak, to make demands of someone who doesn't work for you? Other people share your frustration, but perhaps they were wise when they didn't take to the mailing lists to swear at the developers. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits from this team have I missed? - -Mike PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuLPjoACgkQst0AR/DaKHt+gwCgo8dVyxHBALMY3Ppxb5w0GZ8x eLoAn3tE56CX3tpCUUctqKwibmsgGc8h =gkOb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 2/28/2010 10:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote: William Pietri wrote: As soon as that's ready, I will be very excited to put up test versions of both the English Wikipedia and the German one, so that the community can test, give feedback, and opine on whether it's ready to go. When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those running the project? I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely until FlaggedRevs is finally ready? Who are they responsible to, and why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities (like, creating a plan or a deadline)? Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one, hosted on a 3rd party website. As far as I can tell, there's only been one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the techblog post in January that had little new information. Its been more than 4 months, and we haven't been able to get even a vague timeline yet. IMO, setting a deadline, missing it, and explaining why it was missed is better than not setting a deadline until you know you can meet it (which kind of defeats the purpose of setting it). -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?
Not a sarcasm, but I would like to point out SUL, single user login took years to implement to the project wikis, and we even called once it Godot. FlaggedRevs implementation also - it took years to realize. Months are relatively shorter, and I hope you guys could wait for in a less pain. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Mike.lifeguard mike.lifegu...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: The thing we're working on right now is moving flaggedrevs.labs to different hardware. OK, but hasn't it been *months*?! Isn't there a dedicated team for this rollout?! What work are they actually doing? What relevant SVN commits from this team have I missed? - -Mike PS: FWIW, I agree that hiding your progress tracker on a third-party site that sucks pretty bad is not helpful. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuLPjoACgkQst0AR/DaKHt+gwCgo8dVyxHBALMY3Ppxb5w0GZ8x eLoAn3tE56CX3tpCUUctqKwibmsgGc8h =gkOb -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- KIZU Naoko http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese) Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 07:32 PM, MZMcBride wrote: When it's your biography that reads you once were convicted of murder or pedophilia or whatever else, then you can start talking about people being wound too tight. When it's only been a delay of a few weeks, then you can talk about which forum should be used and so forth. There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it. My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress. You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is why I mentioned it. What I see is literally zero activity on that site since December 17, 2009. All of the tasks appear to have been created on December 16 or 17 and nearly all of them are in the Deliver phase, which reads to me as though they haven't been done. I did get the software to output Found 32 stories (93 points total, 0 points completed) for the user JAS and the Done button at the top opened an empty box. Point to me what I'm missing. Seeing a Deliver button means that Aaron, the developer, thinks the item is done, but it is not yet visible to others. Once we have a test server where people can look at things, then they are delivered. When some non-developer (e.g., me, or Howie Fung of the usability team) verifies that they are actually done, only then do we mark them as done. Production wikis like... the German Wikipedia? What the hell are you talking about? Update flaggedrevs.php for the enwiki database, sync it to the servers, and let's see what happens. How does that sound? Like a recipe for breaking one of the world's top ten websites, an outcome I would rather avoid. There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping. This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site. Measure twice, cut once, works even better in software than carpentry. Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site. The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what motivated this latest round of changes. As important as it is to get FlaggedRevs out for the community to try, I think it's even more important to release it in a form that will yield a successful trial. If we release something that's not up to snuff, the community may reject it for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual idea, an outcome nobody wants. When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those running the project? There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking and measuring real, fine-grained progress.) I explain more here: http://techblog.wikimedia.org/2010/01/flagged-revisions-your-questions-answered/ It's a pretty standard approach in any of the [[Agile Software Development]] processes. As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity. If everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not aware of any impediment to public release right after that decision. If, as seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be able to estimate development time and project dates. As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that. However, in my experience everybody involved is smart, talented, and very committed to the mission of the Wikimedia Foundation. Everybody is also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority project. Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this done, I ask you not to do that again. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this done, I ask you not to do that again. Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be, he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences will come from your boss, not the community, though.) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker is where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at, Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not marked as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up exactly? (And isn't this yet another reason you should be using something less brain-dead than Bugzilla. I never thought it was possible to find worse issue tracking software, but leave it to Wikimedia) William Pietri wrote: There's no need to persuade me of the value of Flagged Revisions. I already think the project is important, or I wouldn't be working on it. My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress. You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is why I mentioned it. Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a management issue. And I'm swearing at the management (see e-mail subject line). There have been substantial changes to the code. We don't want to break either the English or German Wikipedias, so we test before shipping. This is not an unusual approach to running a production web site. Measure twice, cut once, works even better in software than carpentry. Actually, historically that hasn't been the trend. The site has been broken countless times, not that that's a goal anyone should be aiming for. I suppose it's as good an excuse as any for the complete mishandling of this project, though. (In your defense, this was a clusterfuck before you arrived, so you don't get the full blame here.) Also, the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site. I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs site http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org and I've been the one doing the admin promotions on there since September 2009. Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about? The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what motivated this latest round of changes. Where are the comments from the Usability team? I've been idling in their IRC channel for the past few months. Here's every mention of flagged that I have: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/184170/ Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing? I'm curious. And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal Tracker? I don't. There is no specific deadline. The approach I thought best for this project was one where we measure actual progress and use that to project dates. (That's why I used Pivotal Tracker, a tool designed for tracking and measuring real, fine-grained progress.) I can't say unequivocally that Pivotal Tracker is the worst issue tracker to exist, but it's certainly the most user-unfriendly I've personally ever encountered. As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity. You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project? If not, what exactly do you do day-to-day and who is in charge of getting FlaggedRevisions enabled on the English Wikipedia? If everybody feels the new version is ready to go live, then I am not aware of any impediment to public release right after that decision. Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ? If, as seems likely, there are some further proposed changes, we'll be able to estimate development time and project dates. You've said in this very thread that there is no specific deadline. Now you're saying the opposite? Estimating development time and project dates sounds like a deadline to me. Why can't we have one of those? Why can't there be a specific date by which FlaggedRevisions will be enabled on the English Wikipedia. That's what I'm after. As to consequences, we all serve at the pleasure of Danese Cooper most directly, and to Erik, Sue, and the board from there, so if they think we're doing a bad job I'm sure they'll deal with that. Is Danese alive? I haven't seen her on a public mailing list, IRC channel, or wiki since she was hired. At all. Everybody is also keenly aware that this is a high-profile, high-priority project. High-profile, high-priority? This has been in development for years and years
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
Hi, Alex. Good questions. On 02/28/2010 08:10 PM, Alex wrote: When might that be? Is there a specific deadline? If not, why? And if there is a deadline and it slips by yet again, what's the consequence to those running the project? I second this. Are William and Howie just under contract indefinitely until FlaggedRevs is finally ready? Who are they responsible to, and why is that person apparently not giving them any sort of priorities (like, creating a plan or a deadline)? As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a date. If you have further questions on this, let me know. Regarding incentives, I believe that this project borrowed Howie part time from the Usability Team, who will welcome having him back when we're done. For my part, I certainly have an reason to get this done soon. Like everybody, I thought this would go quicker, and I gave WMF a 70% discount from my normal rate, because heck, I love Wikipedia. But each week this goes on means a slightly larger hole in my 2010 revenue picture. A worthwhile one, to be sure, but I'd still like to keep it as small as possible. Why is there such little transparency in this whole process? Rather than use the normal bug tracker that all other MediaWiki developers use and that the community is used to, they're using some entirely separate one, hosted on a 3rd party website. See my explanation elsewhere in the thread, but basically, I'm not tracking bugs, and Bugzilla is a poor fit for the approach I thought best. I used the fastest-to-use tool that suits that approach, so as to maximize the time spent on actual work. Nobody has mentioned an issue with it until now. If people would rather I also tracked a bunch of tickets in Bugzilla we can talk about that, and I'm eager to hear other suggestions for ways to increase transparency. As far as I can tell, there's only been one unprompted communication with the community regarding this - the techblog post in January that had little new information. I've reported when I thought I had something to report, and I've certainly answered direct questions from people. I'm definitely planning to announce boldly when we actually have something to show, and I'll do that far and wide. Although I considered it, it didn't seem useful to send out a hey, still working update in the meantime. Partly because there's not a great venue for it, and partly because the subsequent roiling of the waters takes up time and energy I'd rather see productively used. But mainly because it's hard to do that without throwing under the bus whatever person or group is currently the bottleneck. And not only is that unfair, but it's terrible for both morale and productivity, so it seemed like waiting for a labs update was the best option. I'm open to suggestions, though, so definitely drop me a line (perhaps off list?) if you want to discuss something. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 08:43 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: On 28 February 2010 20:24, William Pietriwill...@scissor.com wrote: Menacing people like that with consequences mainly serves to destroy motivation, not create it, so if you're truly interested in getting this done, I ask you not to do that again. Nobody has done any menacing. He asked what the consequences would be, he didn't threaten consequences. (That there will be consequences if you don't do your job should go without saying. Those consequences will come from your boss, not the community, though.) Well, in my experience, when somebody starts out with what the fuck and ends up talking about consequences, it is rarely a purely academic inquiry into organizational practices. But if I read it wrong, I'd be glad to apologize. I think the people working on this (Aaron and Howie in particular) are both talented and hardworking, so I feel protective of them. I'd like them to spend a long time working for the Wikimedia Foundation, and anything that might push against that is going to rile me up some. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a date. If you have further questions on this, let me know. You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication, and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be trying to measure productivity, you should just be measuring it. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] �lliam Pietri: Where is Flagge dRevisions?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: I've reported when I thought I had something to report I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any accomplishments because there haven't been any. Perhaps you're actually saying that the work done so far is great and wonderful and massive in quantity, but isn't the sort of thing people care to hear about? If that's the case, I think this thread clearly cries out for people to hear what you've been doing. - -Mike -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkuLUl0ACgkQst0AR/DaKHtUywCdGBtpYun9ILUDrxItIk5ac3Ou ZPcAoNarKmSAfUrOdtUAn2Y8/fvcJi8B =V3qu -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote: I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker is where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at, Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not marked as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up exactly? Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work. My point is that drama will slow things down, not speed things up. My long experience is that people swearing at programmers impedes progress. You should decide which you're after. I figure it's progress, which is why I mentioned it. Are you a programmer? The programmers seem to be the ones who have done their jobs here. This isn't a development issue by the looks of it, it's a management issue. And I'm swearing at the management (see e-mail subject line). I have not noticed that swearing at other people noticeably improves their performance either, but I am specifically concerned that the team members will be affected by your tone, whether or not you mean it for any specific individual. If you'd like to swear at me specifically, fine, whatever, but please do it off list. In public, and specifically when people who are working hard might take it amiss, I ask you to speak politely and professionally. Team morale is important to team productivity. I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs sitehttp://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org and I've been the one doing the admin promotions on there since September 2009. Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about? Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages: http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhancement_requests http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page Plus various direct communication from Erik when I joined the project about the current state of things. And whatever else Howie dug up as he looked into improving the interfaces. The usability team and I agreed with that, as did others, which is what motivated this latest round of changes. Where are the comments from the Usability team? We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster. Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing? I'm curious. Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now. And shouldn't I be able to see all of this Usability work at your Pivotal Tracker? I don't. No. The only thing we care about in the end is delivered software, so that's all Pivotal Tracker tracks. Upstream artifacts are tracked via email and verbally. As soon as we can release to labs and check out the new stuff, which I ardently hope is soon, we'll have some useful data on productivity. You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project? Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through, not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's ultimately in charge. I expected things to be released before this point, and indeed I previously expected to be able to release on the current Labs site without issue. Having been surprised before, I hope but do not yet plan that I won't be surprised again. I could make up dates, or I could press other people to make up dates and give them to you, but I believe that to be the sort of BS project management that gets a lot of perfectly fine projects into needles hot water. When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable. Unlike the impediments you've been throwing up in this thread and that others have been throwing up over the past months and years? Originally it was getting the software mostly finished. That happened, and Erik announced that any project could request FlaggedRevisions. Then it became an issue of user interface (and oh-my-god usability). Then a hardware issue (though that turned out to be mostly, if not completely, bunk). I wonder what the next boogeyman will be. Perhaps http://bit.ly/djkLDa ? I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us benefits by not getting it done. If, as seems likely, there are some further
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:59 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: High-profile, high-priority? This has been in development for years and years and still isn't finished. What on Earth happens to the low priorities? They get done before anyone comes up with a reason to delay them :). ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 09:27 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: On 28 February 2010 21:05, William Pietriwill...@scissor.com wrote: As to who I'm responsible to, that was Erik Moeller and is becoming Danese Cooper. We of course have a plan, which is publicly posted, and which I'm glad to answer questions on. Elsewhere in this thread (and in the blog post) I've explained why I haven't just made up an arbitrary deadline, but am instead trying to measure productivity and project a date. If you have further questions on this, let me know. You've been working on it for months. Surely you and your team have produced something in that time. Look at how much it is, compare it to how much you think needs to be done (working out what needed to be done was the first thing you did, yes?), do a bit of multiplication, and give us your projected finish date. You shouldn't be trying to measure productivity, you should just be measuring it. That's an entirely reasonable approach, but there are two wrinkles. One, I underestimated the difficulty of releasing to a production-like environment. And until we have done that, we can't tell the difference between the things we hope are done and the things that are actually done. I intend to only measure the latter; measuring the former as if they were done is chancy. I am pressing vigorously for us to be able to do that soon, but there's only so much pressing you can do without long-term harm. Two, most software projects are inevitably exploratory. The difference between what we think we need and what we actually ended up needing is often large. So I could project dates based on all of the needs that we have discovered, and then somebody in the community will look at the software and say, Hey, what about X? And X will be some entirely reasonable thing that it is now obvious that we need. So I think it's better to release early and often and be open about the fact that it won't be really done until everybody (or, y'know, enough of everybody) agrees that we're now really done, or at least feel comfortable projecting that we're done. But if you'd like to make your own projections, all the data for the development work is exportable from Pivotal Tracker. If I thought I could take that data, or any other data, and give people a real date, one that they could have confidence in, I would be ecstatic to do so. But I can't, and I won't just give a BS date to get everybody off my back. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.comwrote: On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote: I finally figured out that the view history button in Pivotal Tracker is where all the relevant details are. For each of the items I'm looking at, Aaron appears to have completed them 2 months ago. But they're not marked as finished because you and Howie haven't done so? What's the hold-up exactly? Sorry, I thought I explained this earlier: deploying to somewhere that people can see is the current holdup. I believe that something isn't actually done until it's has been tested in an environment sufficiently like production that you have reasonable confidence that it will work. I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority project. My 2 cents. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] The name Old Wikisource
(Please, continue to discuss at foundation-l.) I think that the term Old Wikisource and wiki abbreviation oldwikisource is really bad for the purpose of Wikisource (hosting the rest of material). Something like Multilingual Wikisource would be better (or whatever). So, may I ask fold from Wikisource to find a better name, and fill the but at Bugzilla for changing the abbreviation? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote: On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: I've reported when I thought I had something to report I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any accomplishments because there haven't been any. We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't seem so helpful. When I put up the last blog post, we did have something accomplished: a clear list of all the things we knew were necessary to release, with relative estimates, and posted in a public place so others could keep track of the status and let us know if they thought we missed anything. We've since worked on them, and I promise that as soon as we have something to show, which I would very much like to be soon, I'll let everybody know. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Will iam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority project. My 2 cents. The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this long, though... ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
William Pietri wrote: On 02/28/2010 08:59 PM, MZMcBride wrote: I watch a live feed of every edit and action to the FlaggedRevisions labs site http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org and I've been the one doing the admin promotions on there since September 2009. Can you point to where you're seeing this feedback you're talking about? Off the top of my head, direct email, plus these pages: http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Bug_reports_and_enhanceme nt_requests http://flaggedrevs.labs.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Main_Page Did you, uh, happen to click those links? In the first link, the page hasn't been edited since December 2009. The second link is almost exclusively various users asking for adminship and me responding to them. When you said the community doesn't yet believe the software is ready, at least judging by the last round of feedback on the labs site, I figured there might have been something substantive (and recent) you were basing these comments on. Silly me. We get together and talk. In the WMF office, mainly. It's faster. And it obliterates any possibility for a paper trail or accountability when deadlines are missed. Though in a George W. Bush-esque style, apparently no deadlines are being set. It's an interesting thought experiment if you extend this don't set a deadline for projects model: that multi-million dollar blockbuster? Due in theaters sometime, maybe. Who exactly is working on these user interface issues? What are they doing? I'm curious. Howie, Aaron, and Parul all worked on that. The visual design is done and, I believe, implemented. There are some language changes going on now. Got links? Nearly all Wikimedia-related software development has been publicly visible since the beginning. If there's software, language, or usability work being done, where are the links? You ardently hope? Aren't you the person in charge of this project? Sort of. Project manager means I'm responsible for pushing it through, not that I'm particularly in charge of it. In my view, the community's ultimately in charge. This is a joke, right? This is subtle humor? When I have enough data to give everybody a date I have some confidence in, I'll do it. But given that speed is the primary driver here, I'm not going to increase the workload of already busy people, thereby delaying the project, just to create dates whose value is questionable. Speed is the primary driver here? I think you're just trolling now. I don't appreciate the implication that I'm somehow trying to block this project, or that there's some grand conspiracy to block it. I want to get it done. Everybody involved wants to get it done. None of us benefits by not getting it done. Honest-to-God, nobody is asking that you put a man on the moon. It's some PHP that's conveniently already been written. Enable the damn extension, already. [I've omitted the pseudo-Kumbaya, we don't have any money or resources, look at Twitter! bullshit. It's not worth a proper reply.] MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:16 PM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: Rob Halsell has recycled an old server for our use, and we are working to get it configured in a way that's enough like the production environment that we will have some confidence that a successful test there will mean a successful rollout on the English Wikipedia. Unfortunately, the production environment is complicated, and Rob has a lot on his plate, probably too much, so this is taking a while. So to clarify, what is currently holding the project up is this old server (presumably recycled from production usage), that is sitting around waiting to be configured like a production server for testing? -- Stephen Bain stephen.b...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 02/28/2010 10:24 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingusbrian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority project. My 2 cents. The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this long, though... Yes. I was also expecting it to be easy. Heck, we had flaggedrevs.labs up already, so how hard could an update be? Which is why in the blog post I was sunny about having something visible soon. But for abstruse reasons, not all of which I understand personally, it turned out that it was not easy. It sounds like the reasons are mainly historical, though. Regardless, I have full faith that the people keeping the servers running are prioritizing this work highly, although -- correctly -- not as highly as keeping the existing stuff from blowing up. I really want FlaggedRevs deployed on enwiki, but I also want there to be an enwiki to deploy to. Sleep beckons, so I'm going to give up on this thread for the night, and the next couple of days are heavily booked. But if people have more questions, please do post them; if nobody else gets to them first, I will. And in the future people want to know about something, just drop me a note off list and say, Hey, William! I was wondering about X, and I'd bet other people are too. I'm entirely happy to keep people apprised on pretty much anything, but I don't want to gratuitously spam the inboxes of the eight zillion busy people on these lists until I have something useful to announce. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority project. My 2 cents. The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this long, though... Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with the advent of that fast C-mysql dump importer. And many people can afford those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus desktops. But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache by an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but not attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going to subject this thing to right away? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:57 PM, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: On 28 February 2010 22:17, Brian J Mingus brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: I run a mediawiki farm with mediawiki trunk installed. I've got the process of setting up new wikis scripted and can set one up in 30 seconds. If you just need a place to install a wiki you should be able to find one no problem. Also, WMF has a whack of servers. You should have absolutely no problem getting one in short order. Particularly for a high priority project. My 2 cents. The problem isn't getting a wiki running, it's getting a wiki running in a way comparable to English Wikipedia, which is far from a default Mediawiki install. Given that these are the people that actually keep the enwiki servers running, I wouldn't expect it to take them this long, though... Setting up cur en has been surprisingly easy in the past, particularly with the advent of that fast C-mysql dump importer. And many people can afford those cheap dell quad core nehalem i7 cpus desktops. But honestly I don't see why it can't just be thrown up on any old apache by an experienced wmf admin in a matter of minutes, using the live data but not attached to squid, memcached etc.. Honestly, how much load are we going to subject this thing to right away? I should add - if the Toolserver is still replicating mysql that would be the perfect place for this. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Sue Gardner, Erik Möller , Wi lliam Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On 28 February 2010 23:26, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: It's a simple question: what the fuck is the hold-up for FlaggedRevisions on the English Wikipedia? Thanks, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com Technically I think since about Feb 4th the answer is that Danese Cooper hasn't made it happen. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri will...@scissor.com wrote: On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote: On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: I've reported when I thought I had something to report I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any accomplishments because there haven't been any. We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't seem so helpful. Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left wondering, What are those guys doing? When you see concrete results on a regular basis, there’s no mystery. http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] William Pietri: Where is FlaggedRevisions?
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:22 AM, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 1:23 AM, William Pietri will...@scissor.comwrote: On 02/28/2010 09:36 PM, Mike.lifeguard wrote: On 37-01--10 03:59 PM, William Pietri wrote: I've reported when I thought I had something to report I think the problem here is that you haven't reported any accomplishments because there haven't been any. We've got some stuff that is probably done. But we can't actually show it, and we can't prove that it's done, so yes, giving people a progress report saying things are probably better now but you can't see didn't seem so helpful. Going hand in hand with iterative design is evolutionary delivery. Twenty years ago, the norm was for projects to take years to deliver useful software; now, that’s unthinkable. In evolutionary delivery, we schedule many short revision cycles; as often as every couple of weeks, you get a new version to use, test, and critique. And at the beginning of every cycle, you have the opportunity to set your priorities for the next version. This lets you start using the high-priority features right away, and makes sure that your software meets your needs. As an added bonus, you are never left wondering, What are those guys doing? When you see concrete results on a regular basis, there’s no mystery. http://www.scissor.com/aboutus.htm#philosophy I should clarify that that quote just happened to catch my eye, and that it's totally off-topic and unrelated to anything of importance. Actually, in hindsight, I shouldn't be posting when I'm in my current under-rested state. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
