Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

Michael Snow wrote:
> On 6/9/2010 12:12 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
>   
>> Michael Snow wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> There have been a lot of red herrings brought up on all sides of that
>>> issue. Use of images in a context that is on-topic and educational is
>>> clearly one of those, although I would suggest that we can do better at
>>> supporting reader choice, because it's really the reader we should be
>>> putting in control of their own quest for information.
>>>
>>>  
>>>   
>> I am bound to disagree on the last point there. Our mission
>> is not to make choices or to enable choices by any party, in
>> terms of what is available. We make things available, and they
>> should *be* available. If people want to provide subsets of what
>> we provide, that is their affair. It isn't any part of our mission.
>>
>> 
> My point has nothing to do with making things unavailable. There are 
> other ways of supporting reader choice. As for the pretense that it's 
> possible to sidestep value decisions about making or enabling choices, 
> just by adopting "availability" as a default, that's simply wrong. The 
> present situation involving interlanguage links is a perfect 
> illustration of that. Regardless of which interface approach we adopted, 
> the links were going to remain available, there was no thought that they 
> would be deleted or that feature eliminated. The question is how they 
> are going to be available, at what point we are going to present the 
> reader with the choice, and what mechanisms will be used to enable those 
> choices. Those are crucial questions to confront in our work, and they 
> apply to much more than just interlanguage links, important as those are.
>
>
>   

You are precisely accurate in terms of the reason why people
are so offended by the collapsing of interlanguage links, is
just because that is against our mission.

And that is just a minor way of going against our mission. I would
suggest nobody even encompass going more directly against that
mission.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


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Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia

[Shiju Alex]

The best option according to us (Malayalam Wikipedians -
http://ml.wikipedia.org) is to use the second option for the article titles
. That is, transliterate the keyword to your language.

There is no copyright issue attached with that, I suppose. We do that
throughout our daily life. For example, local language News Paper, TV
reports, and so on.


According to me translating (third option) the book name,film name, or
company name and so on is a bad idea from Encyclopedic point of view. You
can have translated articlke titels if there is a translated version of the
book/film available in your language.

For example, in malayalam wikipedia we have an article about Imitation of
the Christ .
In this article, the information about the original book is provided. Please
note that the article title is the transliteration of the original title of
the book.

We also have another article for the translated version of this book (
ക്രിസ്തുദേവാനുകരണം)
to Malayalam. This article provides information about the translated version
of the original book.

Hope this helps.


Shiju





On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Ryan Lomonaco wrote:

> Forwarded on behalf of a non-list-member.
>
> The question pertains to translation of trademarks within articles; to my
> knowledge, there's nothing wrong with us doing so, and I think this is done
> in many Wikipedias.  But I'll defer to the list on this question.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Amir sarabadani 
> Date: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:58 PM
> Subject: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia
> To: foundation-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
> Hello,
> I'm one of Persian wikipedia users.for making pages same name of
> trademarks (e.g. films ,games.etc.) we have several choices:
> 1-we use  same name and same alphabetical with trademark(e.g.
> Google-->Google)
> 2-we same name but Persian Script(e.g. Call of duty-->کال آو دیوتی/KAL
> AV DIUTI/)
> 3-we translate it(Prince of Persian-->شاهزاده ایرانی /SHAHZADE IRANI
> means Prince of Persia)
> Users of Persian wikipedia (with consequence) use third way usually
> but I think change of trademarks is crime and maybe create legal
> problem for the Foundation
>
> Please tell us what we do or maybe i think wrong please tell me.
> Thanks and best wishes
> --
> Amir
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Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia

[Dan Rosenthal]

I think the immediate question would be this: Ignoring the question of 
trademark infringement for the moment, what way would the Persian Wikipedia 
WANT to do it? Is there a standard that is used for non-trademarked things when 
there is no Persian word in existence to describe the title? For example, 
hypothetically, lets say "water" had no direct Persian equivalent. Would users 
prefer option 1 ("water" in English script) or option 2 (Persian script that 
phonetically spells out "water")? It would make sense to me that where Option 3 
exists, it would be the preferred option, but what about when it doesn't?

-Dan

On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:09 AM, Ryan Lomonaco wrote:

> Forwarded on behalf of a non-list-member.
> 
> The question pertains to translation of trademarks within articles; to my
> knowledge, there's nothing wrong with us doing so, and I think this is done
> in many Wikipedias.  But I'll defer to the list on this question.
> 
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Amir sarabadani 
> Date: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:58 PM
> Subject: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia
> To: foundation-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org
> 
> 
> Hello,
> I'm one of Persian wikipedia users.for making pages same name of
> trademarks (e.g. films ,games.etc.) we have several choices:
> 1-we use  same name and same alphabetical with trademark(e.g.
> Google-->Google)
> 2-we same name but Persian Script(e.g. Call of duty-->کال آو دیوتی/KAL
> AV DIUTI/)
> 3-we translate it(Prince of Persian-->شاهزاده ایرانی /SHAHZADE IRANI
> means Prince of Persia)
> Users of Persian wikipedia (with consequence) use third way usually
> but I think change of trademarks is crime and maybe create legal
> problem for the Foundation
> 
> Please tell us what we do or maybe i think wrong please tell me.
> Thanks and best wishes
> --
> Amir
> ___
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l


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[Foundation-l] Fwd: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia

[Ryan Lomonaco]

Forwarded on behalf of a non-list-member.

The question pertains to translation of trademarks within articles; to my
knowledge, there's nothing wrong with us doing so, and I think this is done
in many Wikipedias.  But I'll defer to the list on this question.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Amir sarabadani 
Date: Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:58 PM
Subject: change of registered TMs in Persian wikipedia
To: foundation-l-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org


Hello,
I'm one of Persian wikipedia users.for making pages same name of
trademarks (e.g. films ,games.etc.) we have several choices:
1-we use  same name and same alphabetical with trademark(e.g.
Google-->Google)
2-we same name but Persian Script(e.g. Call of duty-->کال آو دیوتی/KAL
AV DIUTI/)
3-we translate it(Prince of Persian-->شاهزاده ایرانی /SHAHZADE IRANI
means Prince of Persia)
Users of Persian wikipedia (with consequence) use third way usually
but I think change of trademarks is crime and maybe create legal
problem for the Foundation

Please tell us what we do or maybe i think wrong please tell me.
Thanks and best wishes
--
Amir
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Re: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

[susanpgardner]

Yeah, I hear you, John.  I wouldn't characterize it myself as a systemic 
problem, but I think I get the gist of what you're saying.

I have my own opinions, but I don't think I'll post them here (at least, not 
tonight, and not while walking down the street). They'd be easier to talk 
through in a realtime back-and-forth rather than in a mailing-list post, so 
with luck we'll be able to talk at office hours, if James can set me up to do 
that in the next few weeks.

Thanks,
Sue


-Original Message-
From: John Vandenberg 
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:58:48 
To: ; Wikimedia Foundation Mailing 
List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:49 AM,   wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Yes, the 2010-11 plan is rooted in the strategy.  We're wrapping it up in the 
> office today -- it goes to the Board tonight, and, post-approval, will be 
> published within a few weeks. Maybe I can do IRC office hours once it's 
> published -- it'd be a good meaty topic :-)

That would be fantastic Sue!

I think it would be helpful to have a discussion about strategy before
the annual plan is finalised as I suspect there are many people in the
community who haven't been following the strategy project (I know I
haven't).  Now is a good time for everyone to review the strategy wiki
content!

I'm a bit concerned about the lack of translations on some of the key
pages on the strategy wiki.  e.g. 11 translations of the "Task
force/Recommendations" page; 9 of the "Emerging strategic priorities"
page, and 2 of the first strategy priorities page "Expand reach within
large, well-connected populations".

Reading through the pages relating to strategic priorities, I am
disheartened by the focus on Wikipedia, such as using research about
Wikipedia as a basis for decision making, and Wikipedia being the
subject of the priorities.  More troubling is the use of this diagram,
where many other projects as referred to as "supporting content".

http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMFCurrent_WMF_projects.png

It appears that the uploader, TylerT, was engaged by the WMF as a consultant.
We recently had WMF board members saying similar things about Commons
and Wikisource on foundation-l, and retractions soon followed.
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-May/057926.html

This focus on Wikipedia seems to be a systemic problem.  Maybe the WMF
needs an advisory board consisting of people who are focused on
developing the other projects.

--
John Vandenberg
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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[Rob Lanphier]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 7:08 PM, MZMcBride  wrote:

> Rob Lanphier wrote:
> > So, I'll start chipping in my work at the page Erik has started:
> > http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Product_Development_Process_Ideas
>
> You all really just don't get it, do you? Part of the problem is that the
> usability wiki is viewed as a walled garden. Your "solution" is to create a
> page there for others to add comments?
>
> Meta-Wiki is the Wikimedia community's wiki. Go there and create a
> dialogue.
>
>
Um, ok:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Product_Development_Process_Ideas
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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[MZMcBride]

Rob Lanphier wrote:
> So, I'll start chipping in my work at the page Erik has started:
> http://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Product_Development_Process_Ideas

You all really just don't get it, do you? Part of the problem is that the
usability wiki is viewed as a walled garden. Your "solution" is to create a
page there for others to add comments?

Meta-Wiki is the Wikimedia community's wiki. Go there and create a dialogue.

MZMcBride



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Re: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

[John Vandenberg]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 10:49 AM,   wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Yes, the 2010-11 plan is rooted in the strategy.  We're wrapping it up in the 
> office today -- it goes to the Board tonight, and, post-approval, will be 
> published within a few weeks. Maybe I can do IRC office hours once it's 
> published -- it'd be a good meaty topic :-)

That would be fantastic Sue!

I think it would be helpful to have a discussion about strategy before
the annual plan is finalised as I suspect there are many people in the
community who haven't been following the strategy project (I know I
haven't).  Now is a good time for everyone to review the strategy wiki
content!

I'm a bit concerned about the lack of translations on some of the key
pages on the strategy wiki.  e.g. 11 translations of the "Task
force/Recommendations" page; 9 of the "Emerging strategic priorities"
page, and 2 of the first strategy priorities page "Expand reach within
large, well-connected populations".

Reading through the pages relating to strategic priorities, I am
disheartened by the focus on Wikipedia, such as using research about
Wikipedia as a basis for decision making, and Wikipedia being the
subject of the priorities.  More troubling is the use of this diagram,
where many other projects as referred to as "supporting content".

http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:WMFCurrent_WMF_projects.png

It appears that the uploader, TylerT, was engaged by the WMF as a consultant.
We recently had WMF board members saying similar things about Commons
and Wikisource on foundation-l, and retractions soon followed.
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-May/057926.html

This focus on Wikipedia seems to be a systemic problem.  Maybe the WMF
needs an advisory board consisting of people who are focused on
developing the other projects.

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

[Thomas Dalton]

On 10 June 2010 01:49,   wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> Yes, the 2010-11 plan is rooted in the strategy.  We're wrapping it up in the 
> office today -- it goes to the Board tonight, and, post-approval, will be 
> published within a few weeks. Maybe I can do IRC office hours once it's 
> published -- it'd be a good meaty topic :-)

That sounds like an excellent topic for office hours.

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Re: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

[susanpgardner]

Hi John,

Yes, the 2010-11 plan is rooted in the strategy.  We're wrapping it up in the 
office today -- it goes to the Board tonight, and, post-approval, will be 
published within a few weeks. Maybe I can do IRC office hours once it's 
published -- it'd be a good meaty topic :-)

Thanks,
Sue

-Original Message-
From: John Vandenberg 
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:19:41 
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: [Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

subject was: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default
is a Bad Idea, part 2
On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
> Hoi,
> The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact.

Where is this stated?

Who decides what has the highest impact?

>From the 2009-10 Annual Plan and it's FAQ[1], we see that strategy
development (the "five year plan"), outreach and communications were
key areas of investment.

I assume we can expect a new Annual Plan shortly, which will outline
the investment strategy for 2010 and 2011.  Will it be based on the
"Emerging strategic priorities" page on the strategy wiki?

1. 
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2009-2010_Annual_Plan_Questions_and_Answers
2. http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Emerging_strategic_priorities

--
John Vandenberg

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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[Rob Lanphier]

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Aryeh Gregor

> wrote:

> It's not specific to Wikimedia, it's practically universal in
> open-source development.  To get it to happen, you need pushing from
> the top: formally stating it as part of people's job duties (so they
> don't feel they have to do "real work" instead), and forcing them to
> engage by only giving them public media to discuss things in with
> their co-workers.


Hi Aryeh,

First, let me state from the outset: I think it's great to work out in the
open, and I find that the people I'm working with at WMF are at the leading
edge of community collaboration on a number of fronts (compared to peers at
typical tech companies or even non-profits).  Feel Free to ping me on IRC,
email about anything I'm working on right now (that goes for others as
well).  Note also: in the spirit of this conversation, I didn't run this by
anyone at WMF, and I'm still using my @wikimedia.org address anyway (and I'm
only a contractor).  We'll see if I get in any hot water for that ;-)  Just
so you know, part of my job here (besides work on Pending Changes) is to
work on development process at WMF, so this thread is pretty relevant to my
day job here.

As you know, any time you want to compel someone to do something, there's
always the carrot and the stick.  One thing I don't like about the way
you've phrased that is that is that you seem to be advocating the stick.  Am
I reading that right?

One undertone that I've witnessed everywhere is that people in open source
communities that have a clear organizational "owner" is that there is a very
uneven distribution of people who want a peer-to-peer relationship versus a
customer-vendor relationship.  This makes it really difficult to work out in
the public, because some people seem to prefer the trappings of a
peer-to-peer relationship (let me in on your early thinking, publish your
roadmaps, work in the fishbowl), where others prefer the trappings of the
customer-vendor relationship (the customer is always right, the customer is
the boss).  Some will even go so far as to want a customer-to-peer
relationship, which is clearly not sustainable.  To be really clear here,
most of my impressions on this topic come from my previous work experience
(been doing the corporate open source thing for a while), and only in a
limited way with this community, but I've seen hints that the
WMF<=>community relationship has some of the same traits.

>From the vantage point of the "vendor" in this case, the problem is
compounded by the cognitive bias Erik pointed to (belief that the group
you're a member of is diverse, whereas other groups are not).  The net
result of different expectations in the community is that, from the vendor
point of viewer, it looks like the community is demanding a customer-to-peer
relationship, since that is the "average" opinion of a pretty large and
diverse group.  That's why I'm generally pretty careful about using the term
"the community", because for those not used to working out in the open, it's
really scary to get mixed up in public conversations.

One thing to consider about the IBM example is that IBM is a company of
about 400,000 employees, and was probably in the middle of their "we're
spending $1 billion/year on Linux" year when they instituted that policy.
 They could probably stand to be a little inefficient in the name of
insinuating themselves in the community.  We're not working with that sort
of cushion.

As someone who currently works from Seattle (and worked on a distributed
team in my last job), I also know that long distance collaboration (even in
the same timezone as SF) has its disadvantages from an efficiency
perspective.  Most people have a strong preference for face-to-face
communication for collaboration for good reason...it's high bandwidth.  Even
people who are really good at doing it take some time to figure out how to
be effective using only email and IRC; forcing people who aren't good at it
is really a productivity hit.

My recommendation is to strive to make it incredibly compelling for WMF
staff to work out in the community.  That means adhering to WP:BITE and
WP:GOODFAITH in spades, and reminding each other that we're all on the same
team here.  It means making sure that it actually feels like it's increasing
our productivity to do it, rather than feeling like a drag.  That's not to
say the burden needs to be solely on you all, but I think "forcing"
employees to work in the community is some customer-vendor thinking at play.

Don't get me wrong: I think it's an incredibly good idea for us to figure
out how to all work together better, and clearly a big part of that is going
to be strengthening our working relationship with non-employees.  It wasn't
that long ago I was a non-employee Wikipedian, and may be one again soon.  I
share your goal.  We have an amazingly diverse community with (very
importantly) a fantastic volunteer work ethic, and I think we should be able
to figure this out.

Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

phoebe ayers wrote:
>
> I adore the word "pellucid." But Gerard is right: simply put we can't
> and don't do everything. We don't make every piece of information
> available to every single person in the world -- yet.

I do admit that many actors in the wikimedia universe have
been forced to retreat into more comfortable positions to
defend, the front line contributors are quite happy to fight
the good fight, and total informational availability. You or no
specific contributor need not be in the front line, but I do say
to every body in the front line, personally I am shoulder to
shoulder with you. Back to back.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen



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Re: [Foundation-l] Office Hour for Friday, June 11, featuring Mike Godwin

[susanpgardner]

Thanks Thomas.  I'm happy to do office hours -- Cary can schedule me in any 
time I'm free, via James.  (I can probably do it pre-Wikimania, I think.)

-Original Message-
From: Thomas Dalton 
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:26:31 
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Office Hour for Friday, June 11,
featuring Mike  Godwin

On 10 June 2010 01:13, Cary Bass  wrote:
> Hey everyone!
>
> On Friday, June 11, the Office Hour will once again be hosted by Mike
> Godwin, Legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation, who you can read
> about at 

As interesting as Mike is, this will be the fourth time (judging by
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours, which I'm assuming is
up-to-date) that we've heard from him. Could we hear from some other
staff members soon? It seems Erik hasn't answered questions once.
Frank, who I know is doing a lot of fantastic and little-known work,
has only appeared once. Sue has only appeared once, and that was
nearly a year ago. I think Danese has now been in her job long enough
for it not to be /too/ unfair to inflict us on her.

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Re: [Foundation-l] Office Hour for Friday, June 11, featuring Mike Godwin

[Thomas Dalton]

On 10 June 2010 01:13, Cary Bass  wrote:
> Hey everyone!
>
> On Friday, June 11, the Office Hour will once again be hosted by Mike
> Godwin, Legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation, who you can read
> about at 

As interesting as Mike is, this will be the fourth time (judging by
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours, which I'm assuming is
up-to-date) that we've heard from him. Could we hear from some other
staff members soon? It seems Erik hasn't answered questions once.
Frank, who I know is doing a lot of fantastic and little-known work,
has only appeared once. Sue has only appeared once, and that was
nearly a year ago. I think Danese has now been in her job long enough
for it not to be /too/ unfair to inflict us on her.

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[Foundation-l] WMF investment strategy

[John Vandenberg]

subject was: Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default
is a Bad Idea, part 2
On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
> Hoi,
> The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact.

Where is this stated?

Who decides what has the highest impact?

>From the 2009-10 Annual Plan and it's FAQ[1], we see that strategy
development (the "five year plan"), outreach and communications were
key areas of investment.

I assume we can expect a new Annual Plan shortly, which will outline
the investment strategy for 2010 and 2011.  Will it be based on the
"Emerging strategic priorities" page on the strategy wiki?

1. 
http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/2009-2010_Annual_Plan_Questions_and_Answers
2. http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Emerging_strategic_priorities

--
John Vandenberg

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[Foundation-l] Office Hour for Friday, June 11, featuring Mike Godwin

[Cary Bass]

Hey everyone!

On Friday, June 11, the Office Hour will once again be hosted by Mike
Godwin, Legal counsel for the Wikimedia Foundation, who you can read
about at 

Office hours are from 2230 to 2330 UTC (3:30 PM to 4:30 PM PST).

If you do not have an IRC client, there are two ways you can come chat
using a web browser:  First is using the Wikizine chat gateway at
.  Type a
nickname, select irc.freenode.net from the top menu and
#wikimedia-office from the following menu, then login to join.

Also, you can access Freenode by going to http://webchat.freenode.net/,
typing in the nickname of your choice and choosing wikimedia-office as
the channel.   You may be prompted to click through a security warning.
It should be all right.

Please feel free to forward (and translate!) this email to any other
relevant email lists you happen to be on.

-- 
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator, Wikimedia Foundation

Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate





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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[phoebe ayers]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 3:01 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
 wrote:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>> Hoi,
>> The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact. Given
>> limited resources that makes sense. It also means that while philosophically
>> as volunteers we do not have to make such choices, the WMF will and does.
>>
>> It is obvious that depending on your point of view, the choices made by the
>> WMF can be fortunate or less so. You are right that it is not in our mission
>> to make choices, but reality is different. The question is what choices to
>> make and what their likely impact is. This brings you to two competing
>> fundamentals; what has the most effect and what is the period to measure
>> those effects.
>> Thanks,
>>        GerardM
>>
>>
>
> You are as always, as pellucid as a brick of coal, and totally
> off topic to boot. Please feel welcome to not post comments
> like that again.
>

I adore the word "pellucid." But Gerard is right: simply put we can't
and don't do everything. We don't make every piece of information
available to every single person in the world -- yet. So what do we
include in our collection, and why, and how do we make it possible for
people to access the stuff we do have?

These are the seemingly simple questions that we've spent 5000943945
F-l messages on discussing this month. And we will doubtless spend
67834920 more in discussing whether future policy on these points
should necessarily derive from past practice, and who gets to decide.

-- phoebe, who is repressing her opaque sarcasm

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Re: [Foundation-l] Announcement - Public Policy Initiative Team joins WMF

[Keegan Peterzell]

Congratulations to the team, well chosen.  Let me know if I can be any
assistance by email or on-wiki.
-- 
~Keegan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan
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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[teun spaans]

IBMs decision to get rid of all internal communication sounds to me as a
very good practice for us.
It also fits in well with the wikipedia culture of consensus in decision
making.

Following this comm. strategy involves the large volunteer community, and
taps on the vast knowledge of our community.

thank you, Aryeh, for bringing this up.
teun


> It's not specific to Wikimedia, it's practically universal in
> open-source development.  To get it to happen, you need pushing from
> the top: formally stating it as part of people's job duties (so they
> don't feel they have to do "real work" instead), and forcing them to
> engage by only giving them public media to discuss things in with
> their co-workers.  I recall reading that IBM improved its
> participation in the Linux kernel community by getting rid of all
> internal communications among its kernel developers, meaning they had
> to use the public project lists to bounce ideas off anyone.
>
> It's also worth pointing out that a good way *not* to engage with the
> community is to not touch preexisting code that volunteers are
> familiar with.  All the Usability Initiative stuff was created
> separately: a new skin, and all other functionality in extensions.
> There's mostly no technical reason for this; at least some could have
> been integrated with the existing code.  Putting most of your code in
> a directory called "UsabilityInitiative" is a good way of signaling
> "this is ours, not yours", whether that was the intent or not.  If it
> had touched code that volunteers were familiar with, they would have
> been more engaged from the start, because they'd have stronger
> opinions on the changes and no presumption that they shouldn't touch
> it.
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[Aryeh Gregor]

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 9:28 PM, Aryeh Gregor
 wrote:
> It's not specific to Wikimedia, it's practically universal in
> open-source development.  To get it to happen, you need pushing from
> the top: formally stating it as part of people's job duties (so they
> don't feel they have to do "real work" instead), and forcing them to
> engage by only giving them public media to discuss things in with
> their co-workers.  I recall reading that IBM improved its
> participation in the Linux kernel community by getting rid of all
> internal communications among its kernel developers, meaning they had
> to use the public project lists to bounce ideas off anyone.

Here's the reference for that:

"""
Dan Frye's keynote reflecting on IBM's 10+ years of experience with
Linux was easily one of the best of the day. IBM's experience has
certainly not been 100% smooth sailing; there were a lot of mistakes
made along the way. As Dan put it, it is relatively easy for a company
to form a community around itself, but it's much harder - and more
valuable - to join an established community under somebody else's
control.

A number of lessons learned were offered, starting with an
encouragement to get projects out into the community early and to
avoid closed-door communications. IBM discovered the hard way that
dumping large blocks of completed code into the kernel community was
not going to be successful. The community must be involved earlier
than that. To help in that direction, IBM prohibited the use of
internal communications for many projects, forcing developers to have
their discussions in public forums.
"""
http://lwn.net/Articles/383945/

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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[James Heilman]

I think the idea that Aryeh Gregor brought up is incredible.  We should
follow the strategy use by IBM in helping develop Linux.  Open all
discussion to the Wikimedia community will bring the power of Wikipedia's
collaborative process to the operations of of Wikimedia.  Volunteers would
get involved in all aspects of Wikimedia from advertising to programing.  We
have build the greatest encyclopedia in the world now we can build the
greatest non profit.

> I recall reading that IBM improved its
> participation in the Linux kernel community by getting rid of all
> internal communications among its kernel developers, meaning they had
> to use the public project lists to bounce ideas off anyone.

James Heilman, MD
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Re: [Foundation-l] Announcement - Public Policy Initiative Team joins WMF

[Sydney Poore]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Daniel Phelps  wrote:

> The Wikimedia Foundation has hired four new staff members to guide the new
> Public Policy Initiative. Annie Lin, LiAnna Davis, Sage Ross, and Amy Roth
> will work with public policy programs at universities across the United
> States to incorporate improvements to Wikipedia articles into the
> professors' curriculum. The Public Policy Initiative will recruit Wikipedia
> volunteers to work with professors and students to identify topics needing
> attention and give professors the tools they need to incorporate Wikipedia
> editing into their classrooms. This pilot project will continue through the
> 2010-11 academic year and is funded by a grant from the Stanton Foundation.
> As the Campus Team Coordinator, Annie Lin will work closely with university
> professors, students, and Wikipedia Campus Ambassadors to facilitate our
> outreach and in-classroom training efforts. Annie has a degree in Sociology
> from the University of California at Berkeley, and brings her teaching and
> team development experiences to her new Public Policy Initiative role.
> LiAnna Davis steps into the Communications Associate role with a background
> in online writing and editing, including experience in university
> communications and nonprofit issue advocacy. LiAnna will be the voice of the
> Public Policy Initiative, responsible for communication with professors and
> the Wikipedia community. She has an undergraduate degree in Communication
> Studies from the University of Puget Sound and a master's degree in
> Communication, Culture and Technology from Georgetown University.
>
> As the former editor in chief of Signpost and a longstanding contributor to
> Wikipedia, Sage Ross joins the team as the Online Facilitator. He has been
> campaigning for academic experts to get more involved with Wikipedia since
> joining, and he has led several Wikipedia assignments for courses at Yale
> University. He is an avid photographer and Wikimedia Commons contributor as
> well. Sage is bringing his extensive knowledge of the platform and community
> to recruit volunteers and facilitate communication between the existing
> editors and stakeholders in the project. He holds a bachelor's degree in
> Chemistry from the University of Oklahoma and master's degrees in History
> and in the History of Science and Medicine from Yale University.
> As the Research Analyst, Amy Roth will take the lead role in evaluating the
> process and outcomes of the project, suggesting areas for improvement along
> the way. Amy's extensive experience in data analysis will enable her to
> ensure the initiative develops best practices through feedback from
> students, professors, and Wikipedia's volunteer community. She received her
> bachelor's degree in Biology and Animal Science from California Polytechnic
> State University and her master's in Public Policy and Administration from
> California State University at Sacramento.
> We welcome Annie, LiAnna, Sage, and Amy to the Wikimedia Foundation and the
> Public Policy Initiative.
>

Welcome times four to Annie, LiAnna, Sage, and Amy to the Public Policy
Initiative. I'm eager to see this initiative  in action with the new staff.
This is a fantastic opportunity for us to recruit new editors into the WMF
community who can provide expertise about Public Policy related content.

Sydney Poore
(FloNight)

>
> -Daniel Phelps
> Human Resources
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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[susanpgardner]

Me too -- I'll look forward to seeing you.  And congratulations again to 
Wikimedia Serbia -- we'll do whatever we can to support your work :-)

-Original Message-
From: Juliana da Costa José 
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 20:53:00 
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

Hello Sue, hello Filip and Milos,

yes I am the woman you met in Berlin and I am positivly surprised that you
remembering this short hello after this long goodbye ;).
I am very proud to be part of Wikimedia Serbia and will do my best to
support this Chapter with my engagement and my ideas.
I hope we will meet all in Gdansk.

Best

Juliana


2010/6/9 Sue Gardner 

> On 9 June 2010 10:33, Filip Maljkovic  wrote:
> > It is my pleasure to introduce our new member and Chief of Office of
> > Wikimedia Serbia, Juliana Da Costa José.
>
> Congratulations Juliana, and Wikimedia Serbia!
>
> Is Juliana the woman I met in Berlin a few years ago, who was then a
> board member of Wikimedia Deutschland?  (I guess I don't actually
> expect anyone to know if I met her in Berlin, but maybe somebody could
> confirm if she was on the German board :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[susanpgardner]

Then yes, I met her when I was in Berlin for the math Academy.  Thanks :-)

-Original Message-
From: Sebastian Moleski 
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:47:35 
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Cc: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia



On Jun 9, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Sue Gardner  wrote:
>
> Congratulations Juliana, and Wikimedia Serbia!
>
> Is Juliana the woman I met in Berlin a few years ago, who was then a
> board member of Wikimedia Deutschland?  (I guess I don't actually
> expect anyone to know if I met her in Berlin, but maybe somebody could
> confirm if she was on the German board :-)
Yes, she was a WMDE board member, from Summer 2008 until early 2009 if  
my memory serves right.

Sebastian

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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[Juliana da Costa José]

Hello Sue, hello Filip and Milos,

yes I am the woman you met in Berlin and I am positivly surprised that you
remembering this short hello after this long goodbye ;).
I am very proud to be part of Wikimedia Serbia and will do my best to
support this Chapter with my engagement and my ideas.
I hope we will meet all in Gdansk.

Best

Juliana


2010/6/9 Sue Gardner 

> On 9 June 2010 10:33, Filip Maljkovic  wrote:
> > It is my pleasure to introduce our new member and Chief of Office of
> > Wikimedia Serbia, Juliana Da Costa José.
>
> Congratulations Juliana, and Wikimedia Serbia!
>
> Is Juliana the woman I met in Berlin a few years ago, who was then a
> board member of Wikimedia Deutschland?  (I guess I don't actually
> expect anyone to know if I met her in Berlin, but maybe somebody could
> confirm if she was on the German board :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Sue
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[Sebastian Moleski]

On Jun 9, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Sue Gardner  wrote:
>
> Congratulations Juliana, and Wikimedia Serbia!
>
> Is Juliana the woman I met in Berlin a few years ago, who was then a
> board member of Wikimedia Deutschland?  (I guess I don't actually
> expect anyone to know if I met her in Berlin, but maybe somebody could
> confirm if she was on the German board :-)
Yes, she was a WMDE board member, from Summer 2008 until early 2009 if  
my memory serves right.

Sebastian

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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[Sue Gardner]

On 9 June 2010 10:33, Filip Maljkovic  wrote:
> It is my pleasure to introduce our new member and Chief of Office of
> Wikimedia Serbia, Juliana Da Costa José.

Congratulations Juliana, and Wikimedia Serbia!

Is Juliana the woman I met in Berlin a few years ago, who was then a
board member of Wikimedia Deutschland?  (I guess I don't actually
expect anyone to know if I met her in Berlin, but maybe somebody could
confirm if she was on the German board :-)

Thanks,
Sue

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Re: [Foundation-l] Announcement - Public Policy Initiative Team joins WMF

[James Alexander]

James Alexander
james.alexan...@rochester.edu
jameso...@gmail.com


On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Daniel Phelps  wrote:

> The Wikimedia Foundation has hired four new staff members to guide the new
> Public Policy Initiative. Annie Lin, LiAnna Davis, Sage Ross, and Amy Roth
> will work with public policy programs at universities across the United
> States to incorporate improvements to Wikipedia articles into the
> professors' curriculum. The Public Policy Initiative will recruit Wikipedia
> volunteers to work with professors and students to identify topics needing
> attention and give professors the tools they need to incorporate Wikipedia
> editing into their classrooms. This pilot project will continue through the
> 2010-11 academic year and is funded by a grant from the Stanton Foundation.
> As the Campus Team Coordinator, Annie Lin will work closely with university
> professors, students, and Wikipedia Campus Ambassadors to facilitate our
> outreach and in-classroom training efforts. Annie has a degree in Sociology
> from the University of California at Berkeley, and brings her teaching and
> team development experiences to her new Public Policy Initiative role.
> LiAnna Davis steps into the Communications Associate role with a background
> in online writing and editing, including experience in university
> communications and nonprofit issue advocacy. LiAnna will be the voice of the
> Public Policy Initiative, responsible for communication with professors and
> the Wikipedia community. She has an undergraduate degree in Communication
> Studies from the University of Puget Sound and a master's degree in
> Communication, Culture and Technology from Georgetown University.
>
> As the former editor in chief of Signpost and a longstanding contributor to
> Wikipedia, Sage Ross joins the team as the Online Facilitator. He has been
> campaigning for academic experts to get more involved with Wikipedia since
> joining, and he has led several Wikipedia assignments for courses at Yale
> University. He is an avid photographer and Wikimedia Commons contributor as
> well. Sage is bringing his extensive knowledge of the platform and community
> to recruit volunteers and facilitate communication between the existing
> editors and stakeholders in the project. He holds a bachelor's degree in
> Chemistry from the University of Oklahoma and master's degrees in History
> and in the History of Science and Medicine from Yale University.
> As the Research Analyst, Amy Roth will take the lead role in evaluating the
> process and outcomes of the project, suggesting areas for improvement along
> the way. Amy's extensive experience in data analysis will enable her to
> ensure the initiative develops best practices through feedback from
> students, professors, and Wikipedia's volunteer community. She received her
> bachelor's degree in Biology and Animal Science from California Polytechnic
> State University and her master's in Public Policy and Administration from
> California State University at Sacramento.
> We welcome Annie, LiAnna, Sage, and Amy to the Wikimedia Foundation and the
> Public Policy Initiative.
>
> -Daniel Phelps
> Human Resources
> ___


Congrats everyone and a special welcome to those who haven't been involved
in Wikipedia and WMF projects much in the past. I think the Public Policy
Initiative has huge potential to help the project(s) but that it won't
necessarily be easy to reach that potential. I look forward to seeing how
the process develops and helping in whatever way I can as it progresses.


James Alexander
james.alexan...@rochester.edu
jameso...@gmail.com
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Re: [Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[Milos Rancic]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Filip Maljkovic  wrote:
> It is important to note that she became the Chief of Office without
> salary and that her move to Belgrade depends on successful fundraising.

Just to clarify: with salary, not without it.

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[Foundation-l] Announcement - Public Policy Initiative Team joins WMF

[Daniel Phelps]

The Wikimedia Foundation has hired four new staff members to guide the new 
Public Policy Initiative. Annie Lin, LiAnna Davis, Sage Ross, and Amy Roth will 
work with public policy programs at universities across the United States to 
incorporate improvements to Wikipedia articles into the professors' curriculum. 
The Public Policy Initiative will recruit Wikipedia volunteers to work with 
professors and students to identify topics needing attention and give 
professors the tools they need to incorporate Wikipedia editing into their 
classrooms. This pilot project will continue through the 2010-11 academic year 
and is funded by a grant from the Stanton Foundation.
As the Campus Team Coordinator, Annie Lin will work closely with university 
professors, students, and Wikipedia Campus Ambassadors to facilitate our 
outreach and in-classroom training efforts. Annie has a degree in Sociology 
from the University of California at Berkeley, and brings her teaching and team 
development experiences to her new Public Policy Initiative role. 
LiAnna Davis steps into the Communications Associate role with a background in 
online writing and editing, including experience in university communications 
and nonprofit issue advocacy. LiAnna will be the voice of the Public Policy 
Initiative, responsible for communication with professors and the Wikipedia 
community. She has an undergraduate degree in Communication Studies from the 
University of Puget Sound and a master's degree in Communication, Culture and 
Technology from Georgetown University. 

As the former editor in chief of Signpost and a longstanding contributor to 
Wikipedia, Sage Ross joins the team as the Online Facilitator. He has been 
campaigning for academic experts to get more involved with Wikipedia since 
joining, and he has led several Wikipedia assignments for courses at Yale 
University. He is an avid photographer and Wikimedia Commons contributor as 
well. Sage is bringing his extensive knowledge of the platform and community to 
recruit volunteers and facilitate communication between the existing editors 
and stakeholders in the project. He holds a bachelor's degree in Chemistry from 
the University of Oklahoma and master's degrees in History and in the History 
of Science and Medicine from Yale University.
As the Research Analyst, Amy Roth will take the lead role in evaluating the 
process and outcomes of the project, suggesting areas for improvement along the 
way. Amy's extensive experience in data analysis will enable her to ensure the 
initiative develops best practices through feedback from students, professors, 
and Wikipedia's volunteer community. She received her bachelor's degree in 
Biology and Animal Science from California Polytechnic State University and her 
master's in Public Policy and Administration from California State University 
at Sacramento.
We welcome Annie, LiAnna, Sage, and Amy to the Wikimedia Foundation and the 
Public Policy Initiative.

-Daniel Phelps
Human Resources
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[Foundation-l] Chief of Office of Wikimedia Serbia

[Filip Maljkovic]

It is my pleasure to introduce our new member and Chief of Office of 
Wikimedia Serbia, Juliana Da Costa José.

Juliana is one of the organizers of Wikimania in Gdansk. She lives in 
Berlin, and if things go according to plan, she will move to Belgrade. 
She doesn't know Serbian (although she knows English, German and 
Hungarian), but she will learn it.

Juliana's first and most important task will be fundraising. She will 
start with her job after Wikimania, around the middle of July. She 
already has the draft of the plan, but she will focus on it once she's 
done with Wikimania.

It is important to note that she became the Chief of Office without 
salary and that her move to Belgrade depends on successful fundraising.

Along with Miloš Rančić as Secretary-General, she is now a part of the 
Wikimedia Serbia Secretariat.

Cheers,
Filip

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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Noein]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 09/06/2010 12:01, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> You are as always, as pellucid as a brick of coal, and totally
> off topic to boot. Please feel welcome to not post comments
> like that again.

The fact that you don't understand, don't agree with, or don't like
someone doesn't justify to be rude. I think this kind of remark has no
way to be constructive. Not only it cannot help reaching a consensus,
but it could be offending and start a dispute.

Something is happening in Wikipedia that is new and rare in the history
of mankind: community decisions through global consensus at a huge
scale. We have the responsibility to make this model work, because I
think it is seen, and will be seen more and more in this 21st century,
as a proof-experiment of whether humans can govern themselves without
the traditional authoritarian leadership, at least under certain
conditions.

Our discussions in this mailing-list must be succesful, and this means
keeping the tolerance and patience high and the agressivity low. For the
same reason, it is my opinion that we must be bold about keeping the
power of decisions in the hands of the community. Our goal is one of the
noblest I have ever felt with my mind: let's forget the anger and other
futile acts of our egos, and keep focused on what is at stake.
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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Using words like "pellucid" I am afraid that the average Brit or Yank will
have to look up what you are trying to say, let alone most people for whom
English is a second or third language.

If you are not able / willing to understand what my message to you was, I am
happy to clear things up for you off list.
Thanks,
  GerardM

On 9 June 2010 12:01, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen  wrote:

> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact.
> Given
> > limited resources that makes sense. It also means that while
> philosophically
> > as volunteers we do not have to make such choices, the WMF will and does.
> >
> > It is obvious that depending on your point of view, the choices made by
> the
> > WMF can be fortunate or less so. You are right that it is not in our
> mission
> > to make choices, but reality is different. The question is what choices
> to
> > make and what their likely impact is. This brings you to two competing
> > fundamentals; what has the most effect and what is the period to measure
> > those effects.
> > Thanks,
> >GerardM
> >
> >
>
> You are as always, as pellucid as a brick of coal, and totally
> off topic to boot. Please feel welcome to not post comments
> like that again.
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Michael Snow]

On 6/9/2010 12:12 AM, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> Michael Snow wrote:
>
>> There have been a lot of red herrings brought up on all sides of that
>> issue. Use of images in a context that is on-topic and educational is
>> clearly one of those, although I would suggest that we can do better at
>> supporting reader choice, because it's really the reader we should be
>> putting in control of their own quest for information.
>>
>>  
> I am bound to disagree on the last point there. Our mission
> is not to make choices or to enable choices by any party, in
> terms of what is available. We make things available, and they
> should *be* available. If people want to provide subsets of what
> we provide, that is their affair. It isn't any part of our mission.
>
My point has nothing to do with making things unavailable. There are 
other ways of supporting reader choice. As for the pretense that it's 
possible to sidestep value decisions about making or enabling choices, 
just by adopting "availability" as a default, that's simply wrong. The 
present situation involving interlanguage links is a perfect 
illustration of that. Regardless of which interface approach we adopted, 
the links were going to remain available, there was no thought that they 
would be deleted or that feature eliminated. The question is how they 
are going to be available, at what point we are going to present the 
reader with the choice, and what mechanisms will be used to enable those 
choices. Those are crucial questions to confront in our work, and they 
apply to much more than just interlanguage links, important as those are.

--Michael Snow

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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

Gerard Meijssen wrote:
> Hoi,
> The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact. Given
> limited resources that makes sense. It also means that while philosophically
> as volunteers we do not have to make such choices, the WMF will and does.
>
> It is obvious that depending on your point of view, the choices made by the
> WMF can be fortunate or less so. You are right that it is not in our mission
> to make choices, but reality is different. The question is what choices to
> make and what their likely impact is. This brings you to two competing
> fundamentals; what has the most effect and what is the period to measure
> those effects.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
>   

You are as always, as pellucid as a brick of coal, and totally
off topic to boot. Please feel welcome to not post comments
like that again.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[Austin Hair]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 12:55 AM, Aryeh Gregor
 wrote:
> 2) Make sure that every paid developer spends time dealing with the
> community.  This can include giving support to end users, discussing
> things with volunteers, reviewing patches, etc.  They should be doing
> this on paid time, and they should be discussing their personal
> opinions without consulting with anyone else (i.e., not summarizing
> official positions).  Paid developers and volunteers have to get to
> know each other and have to be able to discuss MediaWiki together.

I like the "discussing their personal opinions without consulting with
anyone else" bit, and you bring up a very good point.

I don't think (and I don't mean to imply that anyone else does) that
anyone's conspiring to keep the community out, or saying "leave this
to the professionals, we know better."  When you're hired onto a team,
though, you're wary of saying anything that would cause strife or
confusion.  This isn't necessarily out of fear of retribution from
your employer—it's simply conventional professional ethics, and it's
usually not even a conscious thing.  (It's also not limited to paid
staff—the people we put on the Board specifically for their vocal
opinions on things often fall into this, for understandable reasons.)

This "united front," however, results in the "us vs. them" mentality
that we're all now lamenting.  Volunteers are now "giving feedback"
rather than "making decisions," as Greg put very well, and we wind up
with questionable UI decisions becoming surrogate arguments for the
roles of community and staff.

I don't think that there's a magic fix for this—it's simply a matter
of culture, and making sure everyone involved understands it and can
work effectively in it.  We can point to the little things, but the
systemic problem needs to be addressed.

Austin

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Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

[Noein]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 09/06/2010 03:28, Aryeh Gregor wrote:

> I recall reading that IBM improved its
> participation in the Linux kernel community by getting rid of all
> internal communications among its kernel developers, meaning they had
> to use the public project lists to bounce ideas off anyone.

I think this idea is key.
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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
The WMF has as its strategy to invest in what has the highest impact. Given
limited resources that makes sense. It also means that while philosophically
as volunteers we do not have to make such choices, the WMF will and does.

It is obvious that depending on your point of view, the choices made by the
WMF can be fortunate or less so. You are right that it is not in our mission
to make choices, but reality is different. The question is what choices to
make and what their likely impact is. This brings you to two competing
fundamentals; what has the most effect and what is the period to measure
those effects.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On 9 June 2010 09:12, Jussi-Ville Heiskanen  wrote:

> Michael Snow wrote:
> > There have been a lot of red herrings brought up on all sides of that
> > issue. Use of images in a context that is on-topic and educational is
> > clearly one of those, although I would suggest that we can do better at
> > supporting reader choice, because it's really the reader we should be
> > putting in control of their own quest for information.
> >
>
> I am bound to disagree on the last point there. Our mission
> is not to make choices or to enable choices by any party, in
> terms of what is available. We make things available, and they
> should *be* available. If people want to provide subsets of what
> we provide, that is their affair. It isn't any part of our mission.
>
>
> Yours,
>
> Jussi-Ville Heiskanen
>
>
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Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

Michael Snow wrote:
> There have been a lot of red herrings brought up on all sides of that 
> issue. Use of images in a context that is on-topic and educational is 
> clearly one of those, although I would suggest that we can do better at 
> supporting reader choice, because it's really the reader we should be 
> putting in control of their own quest for information.
>   

I am bound to disagree on the last point there. Our mission
is not to make choices or to enable choices by any party, in
terms of what is available. We make things available, and they
should *be* available. If people want to provide subsets of what
we provide, that is their affair. It isn't any part of our mission.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


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Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: One-sentence explanation of pending changes

[Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen wrote:
> David Gerard wrote:
>>
>> This is what I have so far, off the top of my head:
>>
>> "Some of our pages are locked from *anyone* editing them. With this,
>> we can open those up so people can  edit the draft version, which then
>> goes live. Should be on the order of minutes, if it's over an hour
>> it's too slow. The trial's starting with locked pages about living
>> people. We'll see how it goes."
>>
>> 

I would be most happy to be proven wrong, but my first
inclination is that the attitude of "We will start with BLP
and expand from there." won't be well recieved. The fight
to even get a consensus around that was hard enough; and
some of the resistance pretty pointedly considered it as the
thin end of the wedge. Legitimizing that form of opposition
by explicitly arguing that BLP's are merely the first to go
under the system, I don't know if that is too wise...


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


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