Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rswrote: Then your Facebook friends will see that you are doing interesting things on Wikipedia projects and will want to do them too. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l I'm pretty sure my facebook friends don't care what I do for Wikimedia (which is all my info is), they're in it for my awesome status updates. End thread, we are all pro-female editors. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Some ideas to increase the social aspect of Wikipedia: - - insert a small chat with channels for each chapter (for example where the interwiki links were ;) ) - - make a tab for personal comments for articles, where people can express their feelings - - show the last 10 comments on the right side of the article - - soften the notability criterion - - make a reward system for spell correction (automatically attributed by bot unless reverted), for adding references (must be validated by moderator or voted by users) - - associate galleries of sounds and/or photos that you can expand or browse with one click - - create challenges or games for wikipedia: charades pointing to an article to be discovered, collections to be completed (find ten articles with x or y characteristics), create fantasy articles only useful for the game with a warning that it's only RPG, etc. - - allow a friend system and allow to import them from facebook - - develop the homepage of wikipedia and wikinews so that they combine major news with the major updates of the pages we are watching, and more information about your friends - - allow a button recommend this article to a friend with feedback from the friend, like a karma count, a thank you count, or the likes etc. On 19/06/2010 08:37, Milos Rancic wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:40 AM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs wrote: Дана Saturday 19 June 2010 07:37:18 Milos Rancic написа: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:30 AM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.rs wrote: Or perhaps we don't even have to build one, but just use the existing ones. [People are always against making Wikipedia a social network.] Have RSS feeds of articles you created/pictures you uploaded. These could then be connected to Facebook or wherever for your friends to see what are you working on. Then you are using Facebook, not Wikimedia. And Flickr is much better for private photos than Wikimedia. Then your Facebook friends will see that you are doing interesting things on Wikipedia projects and will want to do them too. I don't think that it is particularly interesting to see someone's edits. If you are not a passionate Wikimedian, of course. Besides that, contemporary term for site is social network. There are just more and less successful social networks. Wikimedia is successful social network for a very specific type of demographics: young middle class males. Actually, not so young anymore. I think that we are loosing males from younger generations, too. That means that we have to work on diversification of our editor demographics. And one edit in ten days is better than no edits at all. We need cleverly created concepts which would make editing easy, fun, causal. With a lot of interesting content around; probably, based on existing Wikimedia content, but not necessary. The time when wiki concept was new and interesting passed a few years ago. And even Microsoft has better sense for new technologies than us. For example, our goal is not to make a possibility to read Wikipedia from iPhone. Apple did that. The goal is to have easy access to editing from iPhone. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMHIe3AAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6Lq+kH/0YyBREHI09b5cfsBhD3IMBV ozWjpWA2r1//t2cDaiPNpfpyNXoNRwKhCw5m5VtKbmucAiyxLyjqwmPRsh0gZULs 1gNE1bC1DPVKL0R1LZCnCJYngAmhRMODOcwv4abwigA6sqsqdXGfs+07ABHNWVzq hLlM++mEV2z8IjYIxwL7DLK5T1hK8axLSXgmP6PhhawoBZa3K8IjahHk112J8NnZ E2lKjhOs2K4R3aviDKgLONuMXYXSdoaWsV3J5TFdOKTPEWhhsMh55DO2urQyJNFT fJlWLsc3woYaEJrI2ztsLZ9/S+WYUTxoACXK0jmA78sP/e66MlYVYTOi1VOXs/E= =GQMh -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Encouraging participation
I have found some of the suggestions for increasing participation strange. Wikipedia is not a MMORG, it is not a social networking site, it is not a file/picture/video hosting service, it is an online encyclopedia. Some people like the first three. However trying to turn Wikipedia into a combination of them is not how we go about writing an encyclopedia. We need to attract people who are interested in writing an encyclopedia and need to drive away / direct to the appropriate venue those who are looking for something different. My suggestion for increasing editor numbers would be to promote Wikipedia at Universities. McGill has a Wikipedia club. Promoting the formation of clubs at other Universities would have a positive influence. Currently most University students are female ( about 55% ) http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20091023110831548 however Asperger syndrome occurs 5 times more frequently in males than females. This might have something to do with the gender ratio we see. :-) -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, B.Sc. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Encouraging participation
I would support Gerard's point that Wikipedia needs to have strong community (social network in modern buzzwords) as all such projects are results of well coordinated effort of community (with work differentiation etc.) but not of chaotic crowd/horde of individuals. Common goal and work means community, doesn't it? What is more important - community or communication is chicken-egg dilemma obviously. So regarding Wikipedia is not a ... social networking site, it is not a file/picture/video hosting service, it is an online encyclopedia. I think that Wikipedia is same time online encyclopedia (in it front pages so to say) _and_ social networking site (to maintain project community ecosystem) _and_ hosting service (to provide multimedia for articles) in it back-office. Regarding MMORG situation is much different because of strong negative side effect(s) of this metaphor/attitude being used for Wikipedia. Sincerely, Pavlo On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, With due respect, the amount of wordage on our talk pages, IRC channels, mailing lists and even skype calls and conferences is such that I disagree with you. It is exactly because we do not foster communication that many people do not feel at home at Wikipedia. The first years of Wikipedia there were no social networking sites and Wikipedia gave a sense of community. Now that such sites are well established, we find that we do not find the new people that we so desperately want come to us. Yes, we are about creating educational content in our Wikipedia, Wiktionary and .. and .. We have however our fair share of social problems and your appreciation of what improved social networking functionality has to offer is sadly wrong. Look at Wikia they have invested in a healthy community and it is paying off for them because they show a healthy grow. Your suggestion of clubs at universities is in and of itself a good one. These clubs are welcome, they are able to bring us new contributors. The question I have for you is, do you realise that such a club is a social structure and effectively very much like what you dismissed in your proposal? So in conclusion, we should care for our social networks and we should grow them in any way we can. You are right that the creation of educational content is what we achieve, but we should appreciate our social networks for what they do; they bring us and keep us together. Thanks, GerardM On 19 June 2010 13:51, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: I have found some of the suggestions for increasing participation strange. Wikipedia is not a MMORG, it is not a social networking site, it is not a file/picture/video hosting service, it is an online encyclopedia. Some people like the first three. However trying to turn Wikipedia into a combination of them is not how we go about writing an encyclopedia. We need to attract people who are interested in writing an encyclopedia and need to drive away / direct to the appropriate venue those who are looking for something different. My suggestion for increasing editor numbers would be to promote Wikipedia at Universities. McGill has a Wikipedia club. Promoting the formation of clubs at other Universities would have a positive influence. Currently most University students are female ( about 55% ) http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20091023110831548 however Asperger syndrome occurs 5 times more frequently in males than females. This might have something to do with the gender ratio we see. :-) -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, B.Sc. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Noein prono...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Some ideas to increase the social aspect of Wikipedia: - - insert a small chat with channels for each chapter (for example where the interwiki links were ;) ) - - make a tab for personal comments for articles, where people can express their feelings - - show the last 10 comments on the right side of the article - - soften the notability criterion - - make a reward system for spell correction (automatically attributed by bot unless reverted), for adding references (must be validated by moderator or voted by users) - - associate galleries of sounds and/or photos that you can expand or browse with one click - - create challenges or games for wikipedia: charades pointing to an article to be discovered, collections to be completed (find ten articles with x or y characteristics), create fantasy articles only useful for the game with a warning that it's only RPG, etc. - - allow a friend system and allow to import them from facebook - - develop the homepage of wikipedia and wikinews so that they combine major news with the major updates of the pages we are watching, and more information about your friends - - allow a button recommend this article to a friend with feedback from the friend, like a karma count, a thank you count, or the likes etc. My jaw just dropped. While I know these are ideas intended to help increase the socialization, this is turning Wikipedia into youtube. The day that happens I'm resigning all my permissions and packing my bags. Softening notability? Fantasy articles? Games? Live comments? No thanks. I don't think the idea of encouraging women to participate needs these things. I have a fierce dislike for what I consider to be the mind-numbing distraction that social networking sites provide. I'd rather use Wikimedia projects to stimulate my mind, not kill time. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam
Ryan Lomonaco wrote: A housekeeping note: Gmail has been marking some list messages as spam for the past five days or so. Google is evil. MZMcBride ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Gmail - List messages flagged as spam
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:00 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Google is evil. Due to a filter you created, this message was not sent to Spam. -- Fajro ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: My jaw just dropped. While I know these are ideas intended to help increase the socialization, this is turning Wikipedia into youtube. The day that happens I'm resigning all my permissions and packing my bags. Softening notability? Fantasy articles? Games? Live comments? No thanks. While I would like to see good articles about every episode of whatever on Wikipedia, this was not the point. The point is to make personal space on Wikimedia projects. Adding features to the profile (now: Special:Preferences) will increase number of those who are willing to stay on project. I don't think the idea of encouraging women to participate needs these things. I have a fierce dislike for what I consider to be the mind-numbing distraction that social networking sites provide. I'd rather use Wikimedia projects to stimulate my mind, not kill time. You should be able to turn off those features. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: While I would like to see good articles about every episode of whatever on Wikipedia, this was not the point. The point is to make personal space on Wikimedia projects. Adding features to the profile (now: Special:Preferences) will increase number of those who are willing to stay on project. I can only speak from my experience on the English Wikipedia, so I'll address this relating to that project: It will never happen. We've been through these discussions there before on what is and what is not acceptable use of the space for social networking. We have come to the conclusion that it is not[1] in several different ways[2]. The purpose of the English Wikipedia, and all Foundation projects for that matter, is to provide free knowledge in whatever for it comes in, when it's an encyclopedia or a quote or a sourced document or a book or news. We also have determined that we use a collaborative model to build these project. Therein lies the key: build these projects. This is accomplished by working together in a communal manner and this is the social networking that we need, working together on projects with those of the same interest, or even just wandering around the wikis doing things. So, to me, these ideas as features diminishes the interest of maintaining a volunteer, amateur userbase but one that is dedicated and willing to work together. Akin to the HAM radio system, I think. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Just my two cents. 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#MYSPACE 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Userpage -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
Just a comment in general and not a reply to anyone specific. The ultimate goal of Wikipedia is building an Encyclopedia, and all the activities around it (Talk pages, discussion pages, IRC channels and so on) are intended to support these goals. Sure, we have a friendly discussion on a talk page every now and then, but most of our efforts are related to improving Wikipedia. Some people join us because they love a free information society. Other join us because they like writing or want to share knowledge. And some people just enjoy reading Wikipedia, making small corrections every now and then. The reasons to join are legion - Of course they equally include spamming, PoV pushing and vandalizing as well but i will be ignoring the negative ones for now. Yet Wikipedia is not a social network or a game site. We are certainly a community, but we are not myspace, facebook or youtube just to name a few. People should be here to create an encyclopedia, not to play games, chat or whatever. People who join for those reasons are likely not here to create an encyclopedia in the first place, and there are other sites on the web which satisfy their desires a lot better then we can. I do not believe in the citizendium model where only verified experts receive full privileges while the normal people receive a function somewhere in the back, but at the very least we should draw a line between Interested in creating an encyclopedia and Not here to create an encyclopedia. If we go the social network route we will soon be swarmed with people that add literally nothing at all to the project itself (Give me Kudo's. - Oh, you like kittens to? Lets chat! - i found the secret article after just 10 minutes!). Sure, our editor count might rise if we offer diversions, but this is similar to edit count - Quality over Quantity. If anything i would say there are two types of editors who may quit - the one's who don't like Wikipedia, and the ones who don't understand Wikipedia. The former group are the PoV pushers, the people who are not really interested in writing an encyclopedia, the vandals and the spammers. The second group consists out of people who simply don't get all the rules, who find the Wikisyntax to difficult, who get warned when they try to edit and so on. If anything we should focus or recruitment efforts on the second group, as they are the ones who are potentially interested in helping with Wikipedia. We certainly should not be changing Wikipedia just to cater to the former group. For now we will just have to be satisfied with the editors that do join us. Writing an encyclopedia is not the only thing one can do in his free time, and some people simple prefer other diversions. That doesn't mean we shouldn't spread the word about Wikipedia to interest people, but neither does it mean that we should adapt Wikipedia for the sake of attracting the largest amount of people we can. ~Excirial On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: My jaw just dropped. While I know these are ideas intended to help increase the socialization, this is turning Wikipedia into youtube. The day that happens I'm resigning all my permissions and packing my bags. Softening notability? Fantasy articles? Games? Live comments? No thanks. While I would like to see good articles about every episode of whatever on Wikipedia, this was not the point. The point is to make personal space on Wikimedia projects. Adding features to the profile (now: Special:Preferences) will increase number of those who are willing to stay on project. I don't think the idea of encouraging women to participate needs these things. I have a fierce dislike for what I consider to be the mind-numbing distraction that social networking sites provide. I'd rather use Wikimedia projects to stimulate my mind, not kill time. You should be able to turn off those features. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 19/06/2010 19:53, Keegan Peterzell wrote: My jaw just dropped. While I know these are ideas intended to help increase the socialization, this is turning Wikipedia into youtube. The day that happens I'm resigning all my permissions and packing my bags. Softening notability? Fantasy articles? Games? Live comments? No thanks. I don't think the idea of encouraging women to participate needs these things. I have a fierce dislike for what I consider to be the mind-numbing distraction that social networking sites provide. I'd rather use Wikimedia projects to stimulate my mind, not kill time. Then I made my point. I think futilizing wikipedia is the worst thing we can do. On 19/06/2010 07:30, Nikola Smolenski wrote: Saturday 19 June 2010 05:58:31 Milos Rancic ??: That means that we need games for women. While I think that we should build full social network, just a basic one would help. Or perhaps we don't even have to build one, but just use the existing ones. [People are always against making Wikipedia a social network.] Have RSS feeds of articles you created/pictures you uploaded. These could then be connected to Facebook or wherever for your friends to see what are you working on. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMHTsdAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6L+0EIAID3Mr9YKjNNt8WoheHalzw+ n48XQ46nUBbYtb2m38a/IE6TgP1V+rVLb7jvmNZO7wX2CmuO/sW4SlB0phVxcGea ohDgjDga1u4tXEVnikape4uXCrEyup9EgrTDypb/altrF/dOdzQb9DfoEgqlScL7 v0A/FyD4KHHE0/E1ehI2UdmXyxp4+430T7tdWYM9kqeXUfDHifxjXoATvv1ZK707 jzJr4XiwMfZ2QvCC6M8u+KQIJBU0wSx49iRKZCRtqwPtgp6kzPiyDO5jlzIdleuP 2DOPh7MmQQ2Bed7go90AIrgPQG+DnFGfN+WQqzB7QPis8eFxFe3F1hntU8LhAMQ= =SSCl -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
English Wikipedia has numerous contests during the year. Some people regularly participate in them and enjoy them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Contest is an example of one that is ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MILCON Picture of the year is popular with some people on Commons. While everyone does not want to be involved in contests, they appeal to some people and I see no problem with us introducing more of them in WMF projects to see if they will draw people into the movement. I feel the same way about encouraging new ways to get different groups of people involved with WMF projects. If gaming can be used to promote an interest in WMF then that is goodness. Puzzles, board games, and even more complex fantasy games using content might be a draw for some people. If someone wants to develop them I would not stand in there way. Combining community service and socializing is very common in community organizations, and is appealing to many people. By adding more social components to WMF projects, we will most likely draw in people that otherwise would not volunteer. I see this as an important tool and one that should not be dismissed if we are going to broaden the base of our volunteers. Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
Sydney, I agree with your thoughts here. But you are talking about activities community members can participate in. I am talking about how those community members interact with each other. Marc on 6/19/10 5:58 PM, Sydney Poore at sydney.po...@gmail.com wrote: English Wikipedia has numerous contests during the year. Some people regularly participate in them and enjoy them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Contest is an example of one that is ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MILCON Picture of the year is popular with some people on Commons. While everyone does not want to be involved in contests, they appeal to some people and I see no problem with us introducing more of them in WMF projects to see if they will draw people into the movement. I feel the same way about encouraging new ways to get different groups of people involved with WMF projects. If gaming can be used to promote an interest in WMF then that is goodness. Puzzles, board games, and even more complex fantasy games using content might be a draw for some people. If someone wants to develop them I would not stand in there way. Combining community service and socializing is very common in community organizations, and is appealing to many people. By adding more social components to WMF projects, we will most likely draw in people that otherwise would not volunteer. I see this as an important tool and one that should not be dismissed if we are going to broaden the base of our volunteers. Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Wikipedia should be kept a neutral repository of knowledge, not a social ground for games. Once you take the path of creating a futile community, there is no way to talk about the long term goals of the WMF, the vision, the ethics, the humanity, the knowledge. You just have people who are here to have fun and to socialize. It would add noise, not signal. Moreover, I think attracting readers is very different from attracting editors. I don't see how it would be positive to convince people to edit articles with superficial reasons in mind. However external sites could use the content for games or comments (like Facebook does). This way, the site originating the fun attitude would be distinct from the site about knowledge. Wikipedia would get attention without being invaded. On 19/06/2010 23:58, Sydney Poore wrote: English Wikipedia has numerous contests during the year. Some people regularly participate in them and enjoy them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Contest is an example of one that is ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MILCON Picture of the year is popular with some people on Commons. While everyone does not want to be involved in contests, they appeal to some people and I see no problem with us introducing more of them in WMF projects to see if they will draw people into the movement. I feel the same way about encouraging new ways to get different groups of people involved with WMF projects. If gaming can be used to promote an interest in WMF then that is goodness. Puzzles, board games, and even more complex fantasy games using content might be a draw for some people. If someone wants to develop them I would not stand in there way. Combining community service and socializing is very common in community organizations, and is appealing to many people. By adding more social components to WMF projects, we will most likely draw in people that otherwise would not volunteer. I see this as an important tool and one that should not be dismissed if we are going to broaden the base of our volunteers. Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMHUNyAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LUUYIAOM+5k+9DTcEZsjBfrG5gRI2 +QWaqRNB3+H7ax2qculCgBX7Y801SSxkuolnpouhy247xXq/GqH+3/WHGEf9bAd9 dt+D0Dzfhvvl3Ag+vTvcRPWBIaH6ZiZvuO5b6uGa2rmiK6h9C+mJEEcIVmiPtsuH p4vh1xUnB3jjK3fzpkVBdT+4C8+XpViwhdEFzMagBEmCaIh6qABrRhe+f/vC7crZ Ao0IZj/SjNuP4J/nWBjngiFcXabQdBYCarjc5gkWeF8ma75YEqmCBWe4YRcqYyOE Opb5S/V7Zoc3IFq3zJbWaP2WBjY8omHqMA6e5dBYpH8AIEH0XzJCMd6HteGJASI= =RCSg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
Oh, I agree that thanking someone for their service to WMF projects is important, too. We need to do more to recognize the invaluable contributions that we people make to keep the various projects going. But, in addition to giving encouragement though thanks and recognition, I support introducing social features into our projects. The main benefit and focus for the on site features would be the ability for people with similar interests to connect with each other as they work together on site. See the list of ideas from the strategic planning process. http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Community_health_1Volunteer recognition http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Task_force/Recommendations/Community_health_4Social features Sydney On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: Sydney, I agree with your thoughts here. But you are talking about activities community members can participate in. I am talking about how those community members interact with each other. Marc on 6/19/10 5:58 PM, Sydney Poore at sydney.po...@gmail.com wrote: English Wikipedia has numerous contests during the year. Some people regularly participate in them and enjoy them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Contest is an example of one that is ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MILCON Picture of the year is popular with some people on Commons. While everyone does not want to be involved in contests, they appeal to some people and I see no problem with us introducing more of them in WMF projects to see if they will draw people into the movement. I feel the same way about encouraging new ways to get different groups of people involved with WMF projects. If gaming can be used to promote an interest in WMF then that is goodness. Puzzles, board games, and even more complex fantasy games using content might be a draw for some people. If someone wants to develop them I would not stand in there way. Combining community service and socializing is very common in community organizations, and is appealing to many people. By adding more social components to WMF projects, we will most likely draw in people that otherwise would not volunteer. I see this as an important tool and one that should not be dismissed if we are going to broaden the base of our volunteers. Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Noein prono...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Wikipedia should be kept a neutral repository of knowledge, not a social ground for games. Once you take the path of creating a futile community, there is no way to talk about the long term goals of the WMF, the vision, the ethics, the humanity, the knowledge. You just have people who are here to have fun and to socialize. It would add noise, not signal. Moreover, I think attracting readers is very different from attracting editors. I don't see how it would be positive to convince people to edit articles with superficial reasons in mind. My main point is that we could be more fun and accomplish our work better because we would have more hands doing the work. I don't see doing hard work and fun as being mutually exclusive. However external sites could use the content for games or comments (like Facebook does). This way, the site originating the fun attitude would be distinct from the site about knowledge. Wikipedia would get attention without being invaded. Yes, integrating with social networking sites and perhaps other real world venues would be a good way to add a social side to WMF. Sydney Poore On 19/06/2010 23:58, Sydney Poore wrote: English Wikipedia has numerous contests during the year. Some people regularly participate in them and enjoy them. Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Contest is an example of one that is ongoing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:MILCON Picture of the year is popular with some people on Commons. While everyone does not want to be involved in contests, they appeal to some people and I see no problem with us introducing more of them in WMF projects to see if they will draw people into the movement. I feel the same way about encouraging new ways to get different groups of people involved with WMF projects. If gaming can be used to promote an interest in WMF then that is goodness. Puzzles, board games, and even more complex fantasy games using content might be a draw for some people. If someone wants to develop them I would not stand in there way. Combining community service and socializing is very common in community organizations, and is appealing to many people. By adding more social components to WMF projects, we will most likely draw in people that otherwise would not volunteer. I see this as an important tool and one that should not be dismissed if we are going to broaden the base of our volunteers. Sydney Poore (FloNight) On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.netwrote: on 6/19/10 4:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell at keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: snip. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. Yes! Prizes denote direct competition as in sports or, more subtly, with the science arts awards. Person-to-person affirmation goes a very long way; and is what collaboration community should be based upon. Give them the climate, and they will give you the culture. Marc Riddell ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJMHUNyAAoJEHCAuDvx9Z6LUUYIAOM+5k+9DTcEZsjBfrG5gRI2 +QWaqRNB3+H7ax2qculCgBX7Y801SSxkuolnpouhy247xXq/GqH+3/WHGEf9bAd9 dt+D0Dzfhvvl3Ag+vTvcRPWBIaH6ZiZvuO5b6uGa2rmiK6h9C+mJEEcIVmiPtsuH p4vh1xUnB3jjK3fzpkVBdT+4C8+XpViwhdEFzMagBEmCaIh6qABrRhe+f/vC7crZ Ao0IZj/SjNuP4J/nWBjngiFcXabQdBYCarjc5gkWeF8ma75YEqmCBWe4YRcqYyOE Opb5S/V7Zoc3IFq3zJbWaP2WBjY8omHqMA6e5dBYpH8AIEH0XzJCMd6HteGJASI= =RCSg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Encouraging participation
To attract academics this is and must be viewed as a serious endeavor. Yes some aspects such as reverting vandalism could have a fun twist applied to them but the creation of content must remain simple and serious. Wikipedia already has a problem with its image regarding credibility. Things that would affect Wikipedia's image must be carefully considered. I personally do not need further distraction while I edit. Medpedia http://www.medpedia.com/ has more of a facebook appearance to it and for that among other reasons I will not contribute their. We need to keep our goal of writing an encyclopedia first and foremost. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, B.Sc. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 10:58 PM, Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:29 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: While I would like to see good articles about every episode of whatever on Wikipedia, this was not the point. The point is to make personal space on Wikimedia projects. Adding features to the profile (now: Special:Preferences) will increase number of those who are willing to stay on project. I can only speak from my experience on the English Wikipedia, so I'll address this relating to that project: It will never happen. We've been through these discussions there before on what is and what is not acceptable use of the space for social networking. We have come to the conclusion that it is not[1] in several different ways[2]. The purpose of the English Wikipedia, and all Foundation projects for that matter, is to provide free knowledge in whatever for it comes in, when it's an encyclopedia or a quote or a sourced document or a book or news. We also have determined that we use a collaborative model to build these project. Therein lies the key: build these projects. This is accomplished by working together in a communal manner and this is the social networking that we need, working together on projects with those of the same interest, or even just wandering around the wikis doing things. So, to me, these ideas as features diminishes the interest of maintaining a volunteer, amateur userbase but one that is dedicated and willing to work together. Akin to the HAM radio system, I think. You are missing the point again :) I am not talking about transforming user pages into MySpace pages, but about new layer at all Wikimedia projects, which would stay at the place of Special:Preferences. So, it is about personal space, which rudimentary exists inside of watchlist and similar. It is also about customization. For example, as a registered user, I want to have customized Main Page for myself. Also, those who don't want to use that, they should be able not to use. Treat it as a feature which extends logging in to the site. During the 1990s the most of sites didn't have log in option. The first social extension of the log in option was profile. The last are social networking extensions. We've implemented the first one, but we've stopped after it. And time is passing and new projects are passing us with options which aren't treated as the edge of technology or something specific, but as a common part of being on Internet. HAM is exactly something which shouldn't be our model. *Social* (in contrast to technological, military or whatever) impact of HAM community is around zero. Although I am a GNU/Linux admin and although I am including HAM drivers whenever I compile kernel (just in case... :) ), the only time -- known to me -- when HAM network had wider social impact was during the NATO bombing of Serbia in 1999. Nothing before, nothing after. Contrary, our social impact is for a couple of years at the civilization scale and there is no sense to go backward. Besides building the encyclopedia, Wikimedia community has already built cultural movement of unprecedented scale. And present MediaWiki implementation is not enough to support the movement. In other words: Wikimedia is not just Wikipedia. There was a great TED speech that I need to look up but don't have the time for at the moment. The premise of the presentation is that studies have shown time and time again that things like games, prizes, awards and other measures of gratitude are only temporary measures to increase motivation. The folks that work for you that are the truly motivated ones and believers in the process do not ask for these rewards. A pat on the back and a good job, thanks for your work because I value it very much occasionally is the only true recognition that is needed. The other fluff only inspires distraction from the goal because it's creating other little goals which, in turn, become more important than the end result. http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html As well as dopamine works during the work, not when the prize has been get: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrCVu25wQ5s But, it is just about money and goods, as well as that part of psychology is at the very beginning. Social rewards are much more powerful. (Note that there are many social stigmas because people won't do something for money or goods.) I believe that we would have an editor boom just with like button for edits, talk comments and comments [on Wikinews]. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Encouraging participation
On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 1:16 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: To attract academics this is and must be viewed as a serious endeavor. Yes some aspects such as reverting vandalism could have a fun twist applied to them but the creation of content must remain simple and serious. Wikipedia already has a problem with its image regarding credibility. Things that would affect Wikipedia's image must be carefully considered. I personally do not need further distraction while I edit. Medpedia http://www.medpedia.com/ has more of a facebook appearance to it and for that among other reasons I will not contribute their. We need to keep our goal of writing an encyclopedia first and foremost. We were and are working with various professors of Belgrade University. In brief: benefits are thin. * One of the Serbian Wikimedians is a professor who is working at one of the top institutes in US. He has almost cult status at one of the faculties in Belgrade: If he says that something should be done, that is out of question. So, he made an initiative to introduce professors and students in work on Wikipedia. I've made two lectures and we had one set of student's works. And we had just one set of students' works. * At another faculty we have a teaching assistant among Wikimedians. After two projects, we've concluded cooperation because students didn't quite understand work on Wikipedia and started with confrontation. * At one more faculty (actually, just a different department of the previous one), I made similar cooperation. It passed as the first one. Just one set of students' works. I am still trying to make a long term cooperation with some professor or so. But, it is not going easy. The most of the participants in that process are not motivated properly for participation in Wikipedia. It is not fun to them. Any idea how to improve their motivation? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Encouraging participation
Hello James, It seems to me (moreover I'm quite sure) that nobody is talking about making content editing more complicate and/or about fancy and nasty distracting stuff like different bellswhistles. But now it's standard for any site to have well-structured facepages (profiles) to provide for academic the mean to: * properly introduce himself/herself; * get the idea about who is some other contributor/peer; * communicate with other people in well-structured way (structured by groups with particular interests etc.) with modern means to express support of one's opinion etc. Yes, Wikimedia platform provides very flexible and rather mighty (HTML-based) DIY means to organize some profile/facepage but they distract from content creation, do not they (as well as any DIY stuff do)? Yes, Wikimedia platform provides very flexible and rather mighty (HTML-based) DIY-means to organize some groups of interest (portals, projects) but... (see above). So my point is not increase of distraction from content (as main object of contributor care, intended care I would stress) but the opposite - significant decrease of such distraction by eliminating the need of DIY self-care (which is not intended at all). The last but far not least: if we really would like to attract more academics we have to change socialization policies and/or traditions as academics (most of them) don't like/appreciate blind (anonymous) peer cooperation. Or we can look at that in such way: if we are talking about credibility of content we have to talk about credibility of contributors as peers in teamwork first. That's why we will need as much of realexact info on facepages as possible plus as much de-virtualization by mean of meetups as possible. Look on experience of de:WP. Sincerely, Pavlo On Sun, Jun 20, 2010 at 2:16 AM, James Heilman jmh...@gmail.com wrote: To attract academics this is and must be viewed as a serious endeavor. Yes some aspects such as reverting vandalism could have a fun twist applied to them but the creation of content must remain simple and serious. Wikipedia already has a problem with its image regarding credibility. Things that would affect Wikipedia's image must be carefully considered. I personally do not need further distraction while I edit. Medpedia http://www.medpedia.com/ has more of a facebook appearance to it and for that among other reasons I will not contribute their. We need to keep our goal of writing an encyclopedia first and foremost. -- James Heilman MD, CCFP-EM, B.Sc. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Noein prono...@gmail.com wrote: Moreover, I think attracting readers is very different from attracting editors. I don't see how it would be positive to convince people to edit articles with superficial reasons in mind. I'm glad to see that you were being saterical before. I thought you had more sense than that. Attracting consumers is a much more complicated issue than attracting editors. Editors seem to find their niche or go away. Attracting readers takes a constant vigilance over how Wikimedia projects are portrayed in media, pop culture, and casual conversations. There is a fine balance there. The readers part dabbles with the interaction of editors. We want readers to fix typos, clean up things, and monkey about. To make them into editors, they have to have A) the interest B) a positive experience and C) the desire. Desire is different from interest, because that is the compulsion to stick around and I consider this to be the most important part. However, if we can gain at least interest, that is half of the battle even though there are three parts. It is important that we, as the ones with desire, foster the environment to invite the casual reader into at least understanding what we're doing. We all know about the popular misconceptions are about Wikimedia projects, and we are bound to educate and relate to the reader if we want to cause the tipping point of creating an environment that is open, welcoming, but also importantly goal-oriented. This ties into the congruant thread, but I'm avoiding cross-posting. In other words, editors find their own interests and where they fit in. If we are going to encourage *reader* participation, that requires active encouragement from the community to develop a sense of trust. It's true that you can't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. That also applies to print and online sources and what your neighbor tells you the other neighbor did. We have the capacity to actively correct ourselves and each other, which is a medium more powerful than most realize. It's up to us. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] encouraging women's participation
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Milos Rancic mill...@gmail.com wrote: You are missing the point again :) I am not talking about transforming user pages into MySpace pages, but about new layer at all Wikimedia projects, which would stay at the place of Special:Preferences. So, it is about personal space, which rudimentary exists inside of watchlist and similar. It is also about customization. For example, as a registered user, I want to have customized Main Page for myself. Also, those who don't want to use that, they should be able not to use. I do get your point, Milos. I tend to ramble, so perhaps you aren't getting mine :) I would like to keep anything like this off of WMF projects. That does not discount the notion that these social ideas are not beneficial. What I am saying is that facebook is now working with Wikipedia content, so keep it there. They already have the society and software to keep up with the ideas that have been floated in this thread. We can always improve how we deal with inter/intra relations, but I don't think that these ideas are solution to the problems outlined. There are other methods of utilizing social network websites for our benefit in garnering new editors, retaining old ones, and interesting potentials. I don't think that these implementations to MediaWiki will be the solution to that. Other means are far more fruitful, I think, and keeping our processes how they are do promote stability which promotes interest. People, as a whole, don't like change. Thanks for finding that TED link :) -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
