Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Philippe Beaudette wrote: > Indeed, I remember some wonderful conversations, particularly one in > which Domas and I attempted to drink all the beer in Argentina. At > lunch. We were THIS close. It's because of that interaction and the > solid base that it's built on that I felt comfortable telling Domas he > was being snarky and, because of the smiley at the front of his reply > to me, I know he was attempting to be humorous. For the record, no > consultants were harmed in the making of my email. > It seems unusual to be concerned about whether writing an email would cause harm to consultants. It's more common for people to worry about the harm they imagine the consultants might inflict. --Michael Snow ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On Feb 16, 2010, at 10:19 AM, Domas Mituzas wrote: > > I respect Philippe - we had lots of great time and discussions in > the past - and I hope he remembers that (including all my thoughts > about the work he is doing), and doesn't think I'm in any way > disrespectful! I'm sorry, if it is seen otherwise, it was supposed > to be just "oh, I am snarky indeed" :) > Tyler? He deliberately separated himself from "your foundation", so > I cannot call him a colleague yet! Indeed, I remember some wonderful conversations, particularly one in which Domas and I attempted to drink all the beer in Argentina. At lunch. We were THIS close. It's because of that interaction and the solid base that it's built on that I felt comfortable telling Domas he was being snarky and, because of the smiley at the front of his reply to me, I know he was attempting to be humorous. For the record, no consultants were harmed in the making of my email. As for Tyler, I think it's important to remember that this is an outward facing list - emails may be read and responded to by people who have little to no knowledge of the Foundation and we have a responsibility - I think it's stronger than that - a moral imperative - to respond to good faith questions in a good-faith nature. That's where I think Domas slipped up. I also think he realizes it, and there's no need to expand on that. > > I don't feel entirely doomed now, that I get community support. I > will be better, I promise! I'm going to hold you to that. Care to place a friendly wager? Polish beer? > > Domas Philippe > > P.S. Maybe I really shouldn't send emails when severely jetlagged? ;-D P.S. A lesson we've all learned once upon a time, usually the hard way. Philippe Beaudette Facilitator, Strategy Project Wikimedia Foundation phili...@wikimedia.org Imagine a world in which every human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 4:32 PM, William Pietri wrote: > On 02/16/2010 02:12 AM, Ziko van Dijk wrote: >> In general: "Never before people knew so little about something they >> use so often", as a German journalist said about Wikipedia. > > In a strange way, that pleases me; as Danny Hillis says, "What people > mean by the word technology is the stuff that doesn't work yet." That > people use Wikipedia regularly without caring about the the inner > workings is a sign that we've done something right. Of course, it might > be too right; maybe we'd like people to pay better attention to the > quality of what they're reading. > > Interestingly, the people who make luggage X-ray machines have a similar > problem: problems are rare enough that the operators get bored and stop > looking. Their solution is something called Threat Image Projection: > they randomly add pictures of bad things to images of real bags. When > the operator notices something dangerous, they press the "threat" > button. If they don't notice a projected threat, it's counted against > them. That keeps the operators alert enough that they'll hopefully > notice real threats. > > I'd love to find some way to usefully apply this approach to Wikipedia, > but haven't come up with anything yet. Perhaps someone here will. De-admin for failure to pick up simulated vandalism? /me hides ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On 02/16/2010 02:12 AM, Ziko van Dijk wrote: > In general: "Never before people knew so little about something they > use so often", as a German journalist said about Wikipedia. In a strange way, that pleases me; as Danny Hillis says, "What people mean by the word technology is the stuff that doesn't work yet." That people use Wikipedia regularly without caring about the the inner workings is a sign that we've done something right. Of course, it might be too right; maybe we'd like people to pay better attention to the quality of what they're reading. Interestingly, the people who make luggage X-ray machines have a similar problem: problems are rare enough that the operators get bored and stop looking. Their solution is something called Threat Image Projection: they randomly add pictures of bad things to images of real bags. When the operator notices something dangerous, they press the "threat" button. If they don't notice a projected threat, it's counted against them. That keeps the operators alert enough that they'll hopefully notice real threats. I'd love to find some way to usefully apply this approach to Wikipedia, but haven't come up with anything yet. Perhaps someone here will. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
William, > Domas, I am disappointed with the frequent disrespect with which you > treat colleagues, as exemplified by your responses here to Tyler and > Philippe. I respect Philippe - we had lots of great time and discussions in the past - and I hope he remembers that (including all my thoughts about the work he is doing), and doesn't think I'm in any way disrespectful! I'm sorry, if it is seen otherwise, it was supposed to be just "oh, I am snarky indeed" :) Tyler? He deliberately separated himself from "your foundation", so I cannot call him a colleague yet! > Sometimes I have to work very hard to see past that to the value of your > technical contributions. And from time to time I wonder to what extent > that value is counterbalanced by potential contributors that you drive off. Indeed, that may be the case. I constantly feel that I'm blocking someone's wishes to make Wikipedia better :-( I may have driven away quite a few people in the past, and I really miss them (Jeff, where are you!). > If you are not sure how to demonstrate respect or interact politely in > on-line forums and would like to change that, let me (or somebody) know. Sir, I think the problem I have is that I'm not sure when to demonstrate respect and interact politely, not how. :( > It was something a lot of us -- me certainly included -- had to learn > consciously at one point or another, so I'm sure a lot of people could help. I don't feel entirely doomed now, that I get community support. I will be better, I promise! Domas P.S. Maybe I really shouldn't send emails when severely jetlagged? ;-D ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Tyler wrote: > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will > not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then why > do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get > banned, there could be new ones. You've had some replies now, Tyler. I'm interested to know whether they have persuaded you or not? The majority of us on this list are pretty devoted to the project but most of us realise there's a vast population we need to convince regarding the value of Wikipedia. Have you tried looking at Wikipedia pages on subjects you're interested in and/or are knowledgeable about? What did you think of the articles? Did you at least value the list of references and external links you found? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On 02/16/2010 03:09 AM, Domas Mituzas wrote: > Hey Philippe, > > >> That's pretty snarky, Domas. There was a legitimate question there. >> > > :-) Did community strategy members come up with this conclusion, or you had > to involve external consultants?! > Domas, I am disappointed with the frequent disrespect with which you treat colleagues, as exemplified by your responses here to Tyler and Philippe. Sometimes I have to work very hard to see past that to the value of your technical contributions. And from time to time I wonder to what extent that value is counterbalanced by potential contributors that you drive off. If you are not sure how to demonstrate respect or interact politely in on-line forums and would like to change that, let me (or somebody) know. It was something a lot of us -- me certainly included -- had to learn consciously at one point or another, so I'm sure a lot of people could help. William ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Some folks at Wikipedia criticize the heck out of schools and don't trust schools because schools let anyone in, including people who don't want to learn. If schools tolerate people who don't learn, why do they exist? There could be a billion disruptive students. And when the old ones graduate, there are always new ones. > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will > not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then > why do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get > banned, there could be new ones. > > --Mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Dear Tyler, the kids have got a point. This bothers a lot of people. But it is not so crucial. First of all, vandals are not a big problem for Wikipedia. The number of vandals is much lower then billion. Editors are very successful in a fight against them so far. Naturally appearing mistakes and biases are much worse. However, they appear in every encyclopedia. Only editors of Wikipedia can correct them really quickly. The success of Wikipedia is based on this possibility. It is also a reason why Wikipedia exists. Then, the Wikipedia does publish its sources. Everybody can check them. The kids in your school are advised to do it too. It would be great if they learn to do it with all information sources. It is also very important to mention that nobody who wants to do a _serious research_ should use encyclopedia. Therefore in cases when students in colleges and universities are told not to use Wikipedia in their works, Wikipedia is just an example of the encyclopedia which is most easily accessible. Of course, it is not correct when students and especially pupils are told they should never use Wikipedia. There are many occasions in life when usage of encyclopedia is completely right. And Wikipedia is a good encyclopedia. For example, there is no serious reason why pupils should not use the Wikipedia if they want to read about something they are interested in. (The pupils should not simply copy Wikipedia articles but this applies to any source.) There is no serious reason why journalists should not use it to explain some particular term. From these points of views, Wikipedia is a tertiary source like any other. And finally, nothing can stop you if you want to fork the Wikipedia and run a reviewed, closed and "trustful" encyclopedia. Do it! It will help to everybody, to Wikipedia itself as well. (You can even make some money!) Jiri > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will > not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then > why do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get > banned, there could be new ones. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Hey Philippe, > That's pretty snarky, Domas. There was a legitimate question there. :-) Did community strategy members come up with this conclusion, or you had to involve external consultants?! Domas ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Shlomi Fish wrote: > In one of the open source conferences in Israel, the bureaucrat of the Hebrew > wikipedia, came on stage and said "How can you trust an encyclopaedia that > anyone can edit? How can you trust an encyclopaedia that no one can edit!!" I usually say: "I admit it is counter-intuitive, but practice has shown that it works." ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Hi Tyler, The problem of vandalism is indeed one and it will remain so. Most people don't realize actually that not "everybody" can edit, or if he does, it is very likely that his edit will be reverted. That is our real problem - it is difficult to join the team, which may become smaller and no longer capable to fight vandalism and check information. I wonder, by the way, which works teachers will recommend in the future. "Don't use Wikipedia", all right, but what else? The printed encyclopedias die away in these times. Once I read what pupils in Germany are allowed to use for their final essay (when they are 18 and are going to leave grammar school). Practically everything: local newspapers, brochures from organisations... To me as a historian, that is horrific, at least if you use that as Sekundärliteratur (what you Anglo people call "secondary sources"). So - if the pupils are allowed to use that, why not even Wikipedia? :-) In general: "Never before people knew so little about something they use so often", as a German journalist said about Wikipedia. I am looking forward to the results of the bookshelf projects and the possible effects... Kind regards Ziko PS: "the bureaucrat of the Hebrew wikipedia, came on stage and said "How can you trust an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit? How can you trust an encyclopaedia that no one can edit!!"" Shlomi, that*s a good one from your bureaucrat! 2010/2/16 Tom Maaswinkel : > I can understand why 'outside' people would think that wikipedia is > unreliable. But don't all the articles have sources? So why don't they > just learn their students to verify the sources themselves (help us out > while they're at it) and then they'll see quick enough that wikipedia is > reliable. > > I showed to one school once by vanadalizing a page myself and they were > amazed how soon that was put straight again. Ok, I cheated a little by > notifying someone else up front, but they didn't know that :-) > > Tom "TheDevilOnLine" Maaswinkel > > Op 16-2-2010 9:03, Dorozynski Janusz schreef: >> | -Original Message- >> | From: foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l- >> | boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jon Davis >> | Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:53 AM >> / >> | In the end, vandals get bored. It is thrilling to defile Wikipedia >> | once or twice, but when your changes are swiftly dealt with... it >> | loses its appeal. >> | There isn't much fun in writing graffiti that no one will see. >> >> Right. Particularly when given Wikipedia, as Polish, has included Flagged >> versions. Vandals practically left my observed sides alone. >> >> Janusz "Ency" Dorozynski >> >> >> ___ >> foundation-l mailing list >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l >> > > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Ziko van Dijk NL-Silvolde ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On Monday 15 Feb 2010 23:53:45 Tyler wrote: > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will > not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then > why do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get > banned, there could be new ones. You may wish to read: http://www.madsgormlarsen.dk/2009/02/22/the-fear-of-user-generated-content/ In one of the open source conferences in Israel, the bureaucrat of the Hebrew wikipedia, came on stage and said "How can you trust an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit? How can you trust an encyclopaedia that no one can edit!!" and then he gave two examples of inaccuracies - one in a Hebrew printed encyclopaedia and the other in the online Britannica one, where the Hebrew word "Hanasi" (הנשיא) was translated into "The prince" instead of "The president" or "The leader". Vandalism is a problem, but there are many way to mitigate it. And by harnessing the efforts of a large number of Internet contributors, the Wikipedia became much more comprehensive than it was without user-generated- content. That's the point of wikipedia. Regards, Shlomi Fish > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Understand what Open Source is - http://shlom.in/oss-fs Deletionists delete Wikipedia articles that they consider lame. Chuck Norris deletes deletionists whom he considers lame. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply . ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
I can understand why 'outside' people would think that wikipedia is unreliable. But don't all the articles have sources? So why don't they just learn their students to verify the sources themselves (help us out while they're at it) and then they'll see quick enough that wikipedia is reliable. I showed to one school once by vanadalizing a page myself and they were amazed how soon that was put straight again. Ok, I cheated a little by notifying someone else up front, but they didn't know that :-) Tom "TheDevilOnLine" Maaswinkel Op 16-2-2010 9:03, Dorozynski Janusz schreef: > | -Original Message- > | From: foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l- > | boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jon Davis > | Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:53 AM > / > | In the end, vandals get bored. It is thrilling to defile Wikipedia > | once or twice, but when your changes are swiftly dealt with... it > | loses its appeal. > | There isn't much fun in writing graffiti that no one will see. > > Right. Particularly when given Wikipedia, as Polish, has included Flagged > versions. Vandals practically left my observed sides alone. > > Janusz "Ency" Dorozynski > > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
| -Original Message- | From: foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto:foundation-l- | boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Jon Davis | Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 5:53 AM / | In the end, vandals get bored. It is thrilling to defile Wikipedia | once or twice, but when your changes are swiftly dealt with... it | loses its appeal. | There isn't much fun in writing graffiti that no one will see. Right. Particularly when given Wikipedia, as Polish, has included Flagged versions. Vandals practically left my observed sides alone. Janusz "Ency" Dorozynski ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
It has become fairly wide spread now for schools to "teach" children to not 'trust' Wikipedia, for a number of reasons. Most of the time, teachers are using vandalism and the ability for anyone to edit as a "bad thing" to discourage kids from using Wikipedia for research because it makes it too easy for the kids. I agree with the fact that Wikipedia makes many school research projects too easy. I finished college just before the Wikipedia ban became popular, and I can attest to how much I used it. What teachers should be doing is telling kids to use the Reference section's on Wikipedia as a good place to start. As for vandalism, yes, there are plenty of vandals and vandalism BUT there are more "good guys" than "bad guys". On top of this, we (the good guys) have lots of tools and bots that make spotting vandalism very easy and changing it back even easier. With a tool like huggle, a vandal fighter can (and I've clocked myself doing it) revert a bad edit within 7 seconds of it being saved. It takes us with the tools less time to fix the page than it did for the vandals to smash their keyboard or write explicatives and hit save. In the end, vandals get bored. It is thrilling to defile Wikipedia once or twice, but when your changes are swiftly dealt with... it loses its appeal. There isn't much fun in writing graffiti that no one will see. -Jon On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 13:53, Tyler wrote: > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will > not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then > why do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get > banned, there could be new ones. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Domas Mituzas wrote: > Hello, > >> Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation > > Good to know you have plenty of people you can talk to. > > Domas > That's pretty snarky, Domas. There was a legitimate question there. Tyler, Wikipedia is a collaborative project. It's our belief (which has been proven) that the collective knowledge of the crowd is better than a traditional encyclopedia. Sure, there are vandals -but as they crop up, we'll keep batting them down. We're getting really good at it. :) Philippe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] At school
Hello, > Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation Good to know you have plenty of people you can talk to. Domas ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] At school
Kids at my school are criticizing the heck out of your Foundation and will not trust Wikipedia because anyone can edit it. If anyone can edit, then why do you exist? There could be a billion vandals. When the old ones get banned, there could be new ones. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
