Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation. Cheers Yaroslav On Fri, 22 Oct 2010 02:23:16 +0100, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.pt wrote: Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated, this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject: 1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list administrators; subscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation. +1 Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. Who want's a list that's slightly useful? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
Hoi, People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously... Thanks, GerardM On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. Who want's a list that's slightly useful? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
on 10/22/10 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously... Thanks, GerardM To what use are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l? Marc Riddell On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. Who want's a list that's slightly useful? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On 22 October 2010 14:14, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: on 10/22/10 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen at gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously... To what use are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l? Your answer appears to have fallen prey to the fallacy of the excluded middle. The problem is how to arrest the evaporative cooling effect: http://blog.bumblebeelabs.com/social-software-sundays-2-the-evaporative-cooling-effect/ - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
To what use are you talking about, Gerard; groupthink-l? Marc Riddell This is a public list for discussion of matters which concern and affect the Wikimedia Foundation. It is open to supporters and critics of our projects; to novices and old hands. Fred ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On 22/10/2010 08:54, David Gerard wrote: On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanterpute...@mccme.ru wrote: If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation. +1 Are you both asking to be put on moderation or to be banned Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. Has troll become the new Nazi? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
on 10/22/10 10:11 AM, Fred Bauder at fredb...@fairpoint.net wrote: This is a public list for discussion of matters which concern and affect the Wikimedia Foundation. It is open to supporters and critics of our projects; to novices and old hands. I am listening, and do hear what you are saying, Fred. But banishment from something, whether it be from a working project or a country, means that person is being openly, or even surreptitiously, destructive of the body, the substance, of the project or country, not merely being critical of it. Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia? And could we please stop the disingenuousness of calling what is clearly censorship, moderation? And, when someone's constant (and seemingly only) answer to anyone who doesn't agree with them is to call them a name - like troll, the accusation should bounce right back to the accuser. In psychology it's called projection. Marc ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: I am listening, and do hear what you are saying, Fred. But banishment from something, whether it be from a working project or a country, means that person is being openly, or even surreptitiously, destructive of the body, the substance, of the project or country, not merely being critical of it. Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia? That is, in fact, exactly what we, the list administrators, finally concluded. A minor correction, however: it was his contribution to the mailing list we were assessing, not to Wikipedia or any other project. (Though, given that he's been banned from at least two of them, that would have been a much easier case to make.) Greg Kohs went beyond being merely critical (which is welcome, and even encouraged) to the point of being antisocial and counterproductive. He did so to such an extent that it was actively preventing civil discourse. And could we please stop the disingenuousness of calling what is clearly censorship, moderation? Moderation is the technical term for it, and and you can call it censorship if you like, but your term carries an obvious bias. I've been taking time out of my day to regularly log into the list administration interface to make sure nobody's posts were unnecessarily delayed, and I personally haven't rejected a single one from Peter Damian so far. I expect that we'll probably take him off moderation soon, if only to relieve the burden on the administrators. And, when someone's constant (and seemingly only) answer to anyone who doesn't agree with them is to call them a name - like troll, the accusation should bounce right back to the accuser. In psychology it's called projection. The funny thing about projection, of course, is that it's so easy to call it out as recursive. Austin ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
I support the list admins in making this assessment. I dont think it is very productive to then discuss every assessment on this list. So if we agree that moderation might be necessary under certain circumstances, if we agree what circumstances those are and who should be the list admins (or at least there are no major objections of 33% of the members of this list), then I suggest we leave it with that. These circumstances have been discussed several times on this list, but if you need to discuss something, please stick to those abstract circumstances, and dont go into specific cases. I think that might actually carry some value for the future. Best, Lodewijk 2010/10/22 Muhammad Yahia shipmas...@gmail.com On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:54 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: On 22 October 2010 08:19, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation. +1 Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. +1 from me too. I would also like to add that labeling someone a troll doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't provide good criticism, it's just that he presents it in the most time consuming and destructive way possible. I am personally interested in some of the criticism Kohs put forward, but I am against his tactics. We had a troll on ar.wp who was pretty similar in tactics, it took months of debate about freedom and censorship etc. and a few good editors actually quitting before we banned him. And it took a few more months of sock-puppeting for him to actually give up, and looking back at this humongous waste of the time for all parties involved, I wonder if the couple of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are trying to constructively work together. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: If you are counting votes, please count mine for moderation. +1. Although I am not privy to all of Mr. Koh's engagements with the community, he has certainly made himself notorious for polemical disruption over various Wikimedia projects and forums. Allegations of censorship are misplaced. He will, without a doubt, continue to blog about Wikimedia and interested members can relay anything worthy of being read without the kerfuffle. Anirudh Bhati 00 91 9328712208 Skype: anirudhsbh ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
Austin Hair, you have very recently publicly stated: Greg Kohs went beyond being merely critical (which is welcome, and even encouraged) to the point of being antisocial and counterproductive. This is in follow-up to calling him completely unable to keep contributions civil. In the past, David Gerard has insinuated that he is a dick on the list you moderate. Phoebe Ayers has hinted that harassment may be a problem of his. Neither member of the list has been publicly rebuked by any on your moderating team, though their insinuations are offensive to us. However, you were asked privately, and Samuel Klein as well, to please point out what has been uncivil (and now antisocial) about any of the last five of Kohs' posts to the Foundation-l mailing list. You have failed to respond to that question. Samuel has failed to respond to that question. So, I ask here, what has been uncivil or antisocial about any of the most recent five of Kohs' posts to Foundation-l? http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061602.html http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061461.html http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061456.html http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060702.html http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060441.html This should take no more than 3 or 4 minutes of your time. You refuse to take that time, yet you find the time to label Kohs antisocial (which is really quite comical, considering his expansive list of friends on Facebook). How many hours have already been wasted on Foundation-l, thanks to your recent judgment? How many more hours will be wasted as we move forward with the next steps? (You don't really think this is over, do you? Kohs will likely return with sockpuppets on the mailing list. He is relentless when prodded.) Or, you could just admit that you've made a mistake, apologize, and then we all move on. He's already gotten bored with Wikisource, Wikibooks, and Wikiversity, where he's been unblocked -- and yet given excellent free content before he faded off. H.N. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:34 AM, Marc Riddell michaeldavi...@comcast.net wrote: Has either of these persons, Greg or Peter, been destructive of the substance of the Project: the body of the Encyclopedia? Yes, in my opinion. Both were banned from English language Wikipedia and (I believe) other projects, for content and behavioral reasons. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
I would think the people who think this list is useless have already unsubscribed. Can't please everyone. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 8:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, People who appreciate an upgrade from totally useless... obviously... Thanks, GerardM On 22 October 2010 14:27, Anthony wikim...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:54 AM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: Seriously, this list is commonly referred to as troll-l and lots of chapter people refuse to even look at it. Pulling it out of the mire might make it even slightly useful again. Who want's a list that's slightly useful? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On 10/22/2010 09:27 AM, Muhammad Yahia wrote: I wonder if the couple of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are trying to constructively work together. Muhammad, I found this part of your email especially compelling. There is no lack of people on our public email lists with a variety of opinions, and have no hesitation in sharing them, who don't otherwise engage in abusive or disruptive behavior. Cary ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Cary Bass c...@wikimedia.org wrote: On 10/22/2010 09:27 AM, Muhammad Yahia wrote: I wonder if the couple of points he was making were even worth it, we do have people who are capable of presenting criticism in a civil manner, so it's not about 'opinion'. I believe WP:POINT and WP:GAME should apply to any medium we are trying to constructively work together. Muhammad, I found this part of your email especially compelling. There is no lack of people on our public email lists with a variety of opinions, and have no hesitation in sharing them, who don't otherwise engage in abusive or disruptive behavior. Cary I didn't mean to imply otherwise Cary, I was just alluding to the fact that those people exist, on wiki or on mailing list, as opposed to what he is doing. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated, this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject: 1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list administrators; 2) Greg Kohs is still banned and Peter Damian moderated; 3) Five members posted supporting the list administrators decision; 4) Nine members posted against or questioning the list administrators decision; 5) Greg Kohs has been accused of and/or called (after being banned = unable to self defense) 5.1) brinkmanship, boasting, troll, by Gerard Meijssen 5.2) actively opposing [the project], criticizing in public forums in exaggerated ways, not adding anything constructive or helpeful, trollish and disruptive behavior, bad faith, malice, engaged in a campaign intending to harm, have and use substantive issues [to harm], by Fred Bauder 5.3) completely unable to keep his contributions civil, causing more flamewars than constructive discussion, by Austin Hair, list administrators reasons to ban 5.4) having a long, unmitigated and unambiguous record of trolling, spamming, harassment, and abuse, openly soliciting bids from web manipulators whom he intends to pay to post pre-written negative comments to news stories about Wikipedia, with a very clearly stated motive to drive traffic to his revenue-generating sites, clearly unethical and profit-driven behavior and trolling, wasting much time and energy, throwing much shit [of and at others], returning here frequently with throwaway email accounts, by Erik Moeller, Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation 5.5) being abusive, somewhat sensationalistic, unwilling to abide by reasonable internal behavior standards, that behavior being a defining factor of his interaction with the list, rarely being able to suppress it for long, by George Herbert 5.6) and associated with troublesome, trolls, and harassment, by phoebe ayers 6) Peter Damian has been accused of and/or called (after being moderated = self defense not guaranteed) 6.1) making you believe there is nothing good to be found in Wikipedia, posturing as a superior mind, boring, not toning down his retoric, not relevant, by Gerard Meijssen 6.2) actively opposing [the project], criticizing in public forums in exaggerated ways, not always contributing something constructive and helpeful, trollish and disruptive behavior, bad faith, malice, engaged in a campaign intending to harm, have and use substantive issues [to harm], by Fred Bauder 6.3) not always posting something that is even marginally acceptable, by Austin Hair, list administrators reasons to moderate 6.4) and associated with troublesome, and trolls, by phoebe ayers Sixteen hours after the ban and moderation, the 19th post was off-topic. Three and a half hours later, by the 25th post the discussion got off-topic for good staying that way, until someone change the topic title. Of 41 posts, 18 (including the last 17) were off-topic. Half an hour after the 19th post that would eventually send the discussion off-topic for good, another topic was open. It added a total of 19 posts, six of them by the list member that started it. It generated one post questioning the list administrators decision to moderate Peter Damian, and three supporting the list administrators decision to ban Greg Kohs. Furthermore, 7) Greg Kohs (after being banned = unable to self defense) was accused of campaigning against Wikipedia, having a big anti campaign in progress, being disingenuous and having bad faith, by Fred Bauder 8) Greg Kohs and his publications off-list were accused of being/having (after Greg Kohs being banned = unable to self defense) 8.1) sheer number of inaccuracies and misportrayals, by Michael Peel 8.2) full of misinformation, erroneously blaming the WMF for content issues, simultaneously arguing two sides of an issue, flat out false or outdated, troll, by Ryan Kaldari 8.3) continual attacks on the content don't appear to consistent and give the appearance (to me based on my view) of attacking the WMF because he has a personal axe to grind, Posting long screeds attacking the content providing nature while ignoring the fact that WMF is legally a host, not using a productive method for encouraging positive change, Continually railing on and on about these cases of pornography, plagiarism and libel just are ignoring, He doesn't feel like he's addressing systematic problems with the user created culture but attacking to attack, faulting the community (which it feels like) for not dealing with these problems on specific pages, attacking your average contributor, It feels like he's not attacking .the WMF but the base of people like you and me, can't try to make positive change, won't fork, gives the appearance of trying to take down a project, by Laura Hale 9) Peter Damian
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.pt wrote: Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated, this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject: 1) Austin Hair, Ral315, and AlexandrDmitri continue to be the list administrators; ...snip Virgilio A. P. Machado (Vapmachado) I don't remember seeing any comments or discussion on that matter, care to point them out? -Peachey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Virgilio A. P. Machado v...@fct.unl.pt wrote: Three days after the announcement made by Austin Hair on behalf of this list administrators, which also includes Ral315 and AlexandrDmitri, that Greg Kohs was banned and Peter Damian moderated, this much has been accomplished by about 41 posts on that subject: Wow! I see a fantastic candidate to revive the List Summary Service here :) Applied to every topic, this would be a very useful service. -- phoebe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Ban and moderate
On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 12:58 PM, K. Peachey p858sn...@yahoo.com.au wrote: I don't remember seeing any comments or discussion on that matter, care to point them out? They are mostly in the thread 'Greg Kohs and Peter Damian' http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-October/061638.html -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
