[Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a "trust" there? Where will the office be? If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have you learned and what will you do differently? Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. I am also concerned if you setup a trust in, say Egypt, that will put a damper on any efforts to form a chapter, which I know has been discussed. If done carefully and well, I would be very delighted to see outreach programs be a success for Arabic Wikipedia, and hope that will be the case. Cheers, Katie ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
Hi Aude, Hope all is well. Glad to see your interest in Arabic Wikipedia, and I have a couple of comments to some of your questions: 1) The issue with flagged revisions and handling a massive influx of articles should ideally be addressed to the Arabic Wikipedia community. It has already been raised in Doha last month [0] and as a result, a survey was made; some changes are being applied; and there is a discussion currently taking place on ARWP [1]. On the other hand, MENA educational program isn't the first of its kind on Arabic Wikipedia: In the last couple of years, there were at least 3 previous major projects carried out by different MENA based organizations, where all three of them targeted increasing content and resulted in an increased number of new users and a massive number of new articles and there are lessons learned from how each project was handled. In Doha, we had discussions with some of the most active Arabic Wikipedia admins and editors and the meeting updates are shared with the community at this very early research phase, making things transparent and making decisions collaborative, which should help lessen possible problems in the future. Allow me to disagree with the word "duplication" :) - since it kind of ignores the localization efforts and the detail oriented research that is currently carried out by the GEP team (which I am not part of, btw). I guess the program can only duplicate its structure, while adapt all its other aspects to the geographies, cultures, and language projects that it operating within. 2) The "idea" of an Egyptian chapter, has been subject to discussion since over 4 years now. One of its main goals [2] was developing the status of Arabic Wikipedia, same for the idea of Saudi, Tunisian, Algerian and Moroccan chapters. The MENA catalyst project is a language aligned initiative rather than geography based one, which means that it brings new possibilities, more organized programs, and funding, to all those scattered groups that were targeting the same language project. Forming a chapter in Egypt is not a target itself, i.e. the operational model doesn't make a difference as long as the main goals are achieved. Again, this should ideally be discussed with the group that was supporting having a chapter in Egypt and as long as they are supporting the new initiative _and they are_ then there should be nothing to worry about :). Cheers, Moushira [0]http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/10/23/arabic-wikipedia-convening [1] http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%88%D9%8A%D9%83%D9%8A%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%86/%D8%A3%D8%B1%D8%B4%D9%8A%D9%81/%D8%AA%D9%82%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9/10/2011#.D8.A7.D8.B3.D8.AA.D9.82.D8.B5.D8.A7.D8.A1_.D8.B9.D9.86_.D9.86.D8.B8.D8.A7.D9.85_.D8.A7.D9.84.D9.85.D8.B1.D8.A7.D8.AC.D8.B9.D8.A7.D8.AA_.D8.A7.D9.84.D9.85.D8.B9.D9.84.D9.85.D8.A9 [2] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Egypt On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:26 PM, aude wrote: > Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > > Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) > > What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > "trust" there? Where will the office be? > > If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the > same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have > you learned and what will you do differently? > > Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. > > I am also concerned if you setup a trust in, say Egypt, that will put > a damper on any efforts to form a chapter, which I know has been > discussed. > > If done carefully and well, I would be very delighted to see outreach > programs be a success for Arabic Wikipedia, and hope that will be the > case. > > Cheers, > Katie > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
Hi Katie, Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit further. On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude wrote: > Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > > Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) > > What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > "trust" there? Where will the office be? > We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the details. Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make sense to run a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the conditions are right for success. > > If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the > same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have > you learned and what will you do differently? > We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want to do a much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding copyright and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. Nitika has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing further detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. > > Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. > This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and we'll need to innovate. > > I am also concerned if you setup a trust in, say Egypt, that will put > a damper on any efforts to form a chapter, which I know has been > discussed. > We do plan on setting up a regional entity to support our program work in the region. It is premature as to the actual structure. I really don't see this as being a damper on the formation of a chapter, but we don't really have any evidence either way. > > If done carefully and well, I would be very delighted to see outreach > programs be a success for Arabic Wikipedia, and hope that will be the > case. > This is exactly the intention of the work in Arabic and was the spirit we all came out of our Doha convening with. We are all united in this goal...recognizing that it will take a lot of effort by a lot of people to truly reach the full potential of Arabic Wikipedia! > > Cheers, > Katie > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Education_Program Best, Barry -- Barry Newstead Chief Global Development Officer Wikimedia Foundation Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
Some brief notes about the MENA trip can be found here: http://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Global_Education_Program/MENATrip //Abbas. > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 23:39:14 -0800 > From: bnewst...@wikimedia.org > To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program? > > Hi Katie, > Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit further. > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude wrote: > > > Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > > > > Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > > program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) > > > > What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > > "trust" there? Where will the office be? > > > > We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the details. > Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to > investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make sense to run > a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the > conditions are right for success. > > > > > If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the > > same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have > > you learned and what will you do differently? > > > > We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want to do a > much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding copyright > and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. Nitika > has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing further > detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. > > > > > Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > > pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > > ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. > > > > This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community > members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and we'll > need to innovate. > > > > > I am also concerned if you setup a trust in, say Egypt, that will put > > a damper on any efforts to form a chapter, which I know has been > > discussed. > > > > We do plan on setting up a regional entity to support our program work in > the region. It is premature as to the actual structure. I really don't see > this as being a damper on the formation of a chapter, but we don't really > have any evidence either way. > > > > > If done carefully and well, I would be very delighted to see outreach > > programs be a success for Arabic Wikipedia, and hope that will be the > > case. > > > > This is exactly the intention of the work in Arabic and was the spirit we > all came out of our Doha convening with. We are all united in this > goal...recognizing that it will take a lot of effort by a lot of people to > truly reach the full potential of Arabic Wikipedia! > > > > > Cheers, > > Katie > > > > ___ > > foundation-l mailing list > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > > > > > [1] > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_-_India_Programs/Education_Program > > Best, > Barry > > -- > Barry Newstead > Chief Global Development Officer > Wikimedia Foundation > > Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in > the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! > > http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Barry Newstead wrote: > Hi Katie, > Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit > further. > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude wrote: > > > Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > > > > Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > > program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) > > > > What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > > "trust" there? Where will the office be? > > > > We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the details. > Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to > investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make sense to run > a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the > conditions are right for success. > > > > > If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the > > same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have > > you learned and what will you do differently? > > > > We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want to do a > much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding copyright > and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. Nitika > has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing further > detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. > > > > > Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > > pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > > ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. > > > > This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community > members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and we'll > need to innovate. Forgive me if I've missed something, I don't have time in the day to follow all the links I'm provided in emails. Why exactly are we focusing on the Arabic Wikipedia and not localized dialects and languages? Relying on a group to tutor as well as maintain a website doesn't work very well when we branch from an internet forum to an encyclopedia. The Public Policy Initiative team did an amazing job in setting up standards for education programs and has expanded well in North America and the UK and will continue to grow. Growth means learning, and I think that we learned from the India project on the English Wikipedia that international projects need a bit more time and structure before we dive into creating content. The west has a nasty habit of considering every Middle East country as just speaking Arabic with little regard to Semetic languages. I believe there is a reason that the Arabic Wikipedia is vastly underused, staffed, and content: people like writing in their native language. The Indian project is a different matter- I'd say the exception to the rule. I can understand Egypt and a couple other countries being interested in the Arabic project, but in my amateur opinion such an undertaking by the WMF's education program should hold off for a bit until there's a solid community to help. We can't use wikis and Wikimedia projects as educational tools without guidance from a solid community. Again, just my opinion as someone keenly following the use of Wikimedia for education. I hope the best for the MENA project. Annie, Frank, Moushira, any others involved I'm more than happy to help if needed. > -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
On Nov 16, 2011, at 3:04 AM, Keegan Peterzell wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Barry Newstead >wrote: > >> Hi Katie, >> Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit >> further. Thank you Moushira and Barry for the replies. I won't give a full reply just yet, since I am typing on my phone... except for some reply to Keegan now >> >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude wrote: >> >>> Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, >>> >>> Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education >>> program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach >>> wiki) >>> >>> What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a >>> "trust" there? Where will the office be? >>> >> >> We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the >> details. >> Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to >> investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make >> sense to run >> a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the >> conditions are right for success. >> >>> >>> If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not >>> the >>> same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons >>> have >>> you learned and what will you do differently? >>> >> >> We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want >> to do a >> much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding >> copyright >> and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. >> Nitika >> has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing >> further >> detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. >> >>> >>> Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with >>> pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the >>> ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new >>> content. >>> >> >> This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community >> members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and >> we'll >> need to innovate. > > > Forgive me if I've missed something, I don't have time in the day to > follow > all the links I'm provided in emails. > > Why exactly are we focusing on the Arabic Wikipedia and not localized > dialects and languages? Yes there are dialects, and if you want to call it a dialect, yes there is the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia which is mostly spoken and not necessarily written. Arabic Wikipedia is appropriate here for the education project. > > Relying on a group to tutor as well as maintain a website doesn't > work very > well when we branch from an internet forum to an encyclopedia. The > Public > Policy Initiative team did an amazing job in setting up standards for > education programs and has expanded well in North America and the UK > and > will continue to grow. Growth means learning, and I think that we > learned > from the India project on the English Wikipedia that international > projects > need a bit more time and structure before we dive into creating > content. > > The west has a nasty habit of considering every Middle East country > as just > speaking Arabic with little regard to Semetic languages. I believe > there > is a reason that the Arabic Wikipedia is vastly underused, staffed, > and > content: people like writing in their native language. Actually a lot of people (as with India) in Egypt and other places edit English Wikipedia. (about 50% edits to English / 50% to Arabic) Cheers, Katie > The Indian project > is a different matter- I'd say the exception to the rule. I can > understand > Egypt and a couple other countries being interested in the Arabic > project, > but in my amateur opinion such an undertaking by the WMF's education > program should hold off for a bit until there's a solid community to > help. > We can't use wikis and Wikimedia projects as educational tools without > guidance from a solid community. > > Again, just my opinion as someone keenly following the use of > Wikimedia for > education. I hope the best for the MENA project. Annie, Frank, > Moushira, > any others involved I'm more than happy to help if needed. > >> > > > -- > ~Keegan > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
Hoi, For reasons that are not in line with the policies of the language committee, the board has refused to allow new projects in any of the Arabic languages. The Language policy allows for this; the WMF board will decide if it will allow a new project when there are issues, any issues. The insistence on one Arabic language is not based in fact. The ISO standard explicitly recognises them. The Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia is doing relatively well and shows that there is room for linguistic diversity for multiple Arabic languages. Thanks, GerardM PS It is my personal opinion that there is room for the many languages that are used in the Arabic world On Wednesday, 16 November 2011, aude wrote: > On Nov 16, 2011, at 3:04 AM, Keegan Peterzell > > > > wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Barry Newstead > > > > >wrote: > > > >> Hi Katie, > >> Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit > >> further. > > > Thank you Moushira and Barry for the replies. > > I won't give a full reply just yet, since I am typing on my phone...v > except for some reply to Keegan now > > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude > > wrote: > >> > >>> Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > >>> > >>> Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > >>> program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach > >>> wiki) > >>> > >>> What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > >>> "trust" there? Where will the office be? > >>> > >> > >> We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the > >> details. > >> Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to > >> investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make > >> sense to run > >> a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the > >> conditions are right for success. > >> > >>> > >>> If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not > >>> the > >>> same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons > >>> have > >>> you learned and what will you do differently? > >>> > >> > >> We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want > >> to do a > >> much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding > >> copyright > >> and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. > >> Nitika > >> has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing > >> further > >> detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. > >> > >>> > >>> Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > >>> pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > >>> ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new > >>> content. > >>> > >> > >> This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community > >> members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and > >> we'll > >> need to innovate. > > > > > > Forgive me if I've missed something, I don't have time in the day to > > follow > > all the links I'm provided in emails. > > > > Why exactly are we focusing on the Arabic Wikipedia and not localized > > dialects and languages? > > Yes there are dialects, and if you want to call it a dialect, yes > there is the Egyptian Arabic Wikipedia which is mostly spoken and not > necessarily written. Arabic Wikipedia is appropriate here for the > education project. > > > > > Relying on a group to tutor as well as maintain a website doesn't > > work very > > well when we branch from an internet forum to an encyclopedia. The > > Public > > Policy Initiative team did an amazing job in setting up standards for > > education programs and has expanded well in North America and the UK > > and > > will continue to grow. Growth means learning, and I think that we > > learned > > from the India project on the English Wikipedia that international > > projects > > need a bit more time and structure before we dive into creating > > content. > > > > The west has a nasty habit of considering every Middle East country > > as just > > speaking Arabic with little regard to Semetic languages. I believe > > there > > is a reason that the Arabic Wikipedia is vastly underused, staffed, > > and > > content: people like writing in their native language. > > Actually a lot of people (as with India) in Egypt and other places > edit English Wikipedia. (about 50% edits to English / 50% to Arabic) > > Cheers, > Katie > > > > > The Indian project > > is a different matter- I'd say the exception to the rule. I can > > understand > > Egypt and a couple other countries being interested in the Arabic > > project, > > but in my amateur opinion such an undertaking by the WMF's education > > program should hold off for a bit until there's a solid community to > > help. > > We can't use wikis and Wikimedia projects as educational tools without > > guidance from a solid community. > > > > Again, just my opinion as someone keenly following the use of > > W
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Keegan Peterzell wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:39 AM, Barry Newstead >wrote: > > > Hi Katie, > > Just to build on Moushira's response to tackle your questions a bit > > further. > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:26 AM, aude wrote: > > > > > Erik, Sue, Frank, et al, > > > > > > Can you please say more about the plans for a Middle East education > > > program? (yes I have read notes from the recent trip on outreach wiki) > > > > > > What is the timeframe? Who is going to run it? Will you establish a > > > "trust" there? Where will the office be? > > > > > > > We are planning a pilot in Cairo, but have not yet firmed up the details. > > Frank, Annie and Moushira will spend a week in Cairo in December to > > investigate the opportunity further and see when it would make sense to > run > > a small pilot. We are hoping for February, but want to make sure the > > conditions are right for success. > > > > > > > > If the program is to be duplicated, I certainly hope there are not the > > > same issues with quality, as has happened in Pune. What lessons have > > > you learned and what will you do differently? > > > > > > > We do not plan on duplicating the Pune experience. For one, we want to > do a > > much smaller pilot. We also want to dig into questions regarding > copyright > > and student writing ability in Arabic before we start the pilot. Nitika > > has captured a series of lessons on the pilot [1] and we are doing > further > > detailed evaluation work to ensure we mine the pilot fully. > > > > > > > > Knowing that there is quite a backlog, last time I checked, with > > > pending changes on Arabic Wikipedia, I am very concerned for the > > > ability of volunteers there to handle a massive influx of new content. > > > > > > > This is a concern we share...and we discussed this with the community > > members in Doha as Moushira mentioned. No easy solutions here and we'll > > need to innovate. > > > Forgive me if I've missed something, I don't have time in the day to follow > all the links I'm provided in emails. > > Why exactly are we focusing on the Arabic Wikipedia and not localized > dialects and languages? > > Relying on a group to tutor as well as maintain a website doesn't work very > well when we branch from an internet forum to an encyclopedia. The Public > Policy Initiative team did an amazing job in setting up standards for > education programs and has expanded well in North America and the UK and > will continue to grow. Growth means learning, and I think that we learned > from the India project on the English Wikipedia that international projects > need a bit more time and structure before we dive into creating content. > > The west has a nasty habit of considering every Middle East country as just > speaking Arabic with little regard to Semetic languages. I believe there > is a reason that the Arabic Wikipedia is vastly underused, staffed, and > content: people like writing in their native language. The Indian project > is a different matter- I'd say the exception to the rule. I can understand > Egypt and a couple other countries being interested in the Arabic project, > but in my amateur opinion such an undertaking by the WMF's education > program should hold off for a bit until there's a solid community to help. > We can't use wikis and Wikimedia projects as educational tools without > guidance from a solid community. > > +1 As someone a bit more familiar with Middle-east, I couldn't agree more. Regards Theo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
> > > > > Relying on a group to tutor as well as maintain a website doesn't work > very > > well when we branch from an internet forum to an encyclopedia. The > Public > > Policy Initiative team did an amazing job in setting up standards for > > education programs and has expanded well in North America and the UK and > > will continue to grow. Growth means learning, and I think that we > learned > > from the India project on the English Wikipedia that international > projects > > need a bit more time and structure before we dive into creating content. > > > > The west has a nasty habit of considering every Middle East country as > just > > speaking Arabic with little regard to Semetic languages. I believe there > > is a reason that the Arabic Wikipedia is vastly underused, staffed, and > > content: people like writing in their native language. The Indian > project > > is a different matter- I'd say the exception to the rule. I can > understand > > Egypt and a couple other countries being interested in the Arabic > project, > > but in my amateur opinion such an undertaking by the WMF's education > > program should hold off for a bit until there's a solid community to > help. > > We can't use wikis and Wikimedia projects as educational tools without > > guidance from a solid community. > > > > > +1 > > As someone a bit more familiar with Middle-east, I couldn't agree more. > > Regards > Theo > I don't want to open a hornet's nest, but as someone who has actually lived most of his life in the middle east, I couldn't disagree more. Local dialects/languages have not been formally adopted in any Arabic speaking country that I know of as an everyday *written* language, so I don't know how ppl would love to write in their native dialect/language when they have never been writing it before. And the Egyptian Arabic wikipedia that Gerard refers to as doing 'relatively well' suffers from exactly the same issues as the Arabic wikipedia in general on a smaller scale (add to that antagonism by a lot of ppl as evident on OTRS not familiar with reading their spoken dialect and thinking it's weird). Issues that has nothing to do with the dialect the material is written in. Let's please not derail the conversation from the good initiatives being developed. -- Best Regards, Muhammad Yahia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] MENA Education Program?
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Muhammad Yahia wrote: > > I don't want to open a hornet's nest, but as someone who has actually lived > most of his life in the middle east, I couldn't disagree more. > > Local dialects/languages have not been formally adopted in any Arabic > speaking country that I know of as an everyday *written* language, so I > don't know how ppl would love to write in their native dialect/language > when they have never been writing it before. And the Egyptian Arabic > wikipedia that Gerard refers to as doing 'relatively well' suffers from > exactly the same issues as the Arabic wikipedia in general on a smaller > scale (add to that antagonism by a lot of ppl as evident on OTRS not > familiar with reading their spoken dialect and thinking it's weird). Issues > that has nothing to do with the dialect the material is written in. > > Let's please not derail the conversation from the good initiatives being > developed. > > > > No hornet's nest, Muhammed. Thank you for your input on dialects. I think it's safe to say Arabic is international in written form and that all makes perfect sense. I was not attempting to derail to conversation. I fully support the global education projects. I was expressing concern that we may not be quite ready for another program. By not quite ready yet, I mean just a few months down the road. We learned a lot on the English Wikipedia from the opportunities that arose with the India program this past month. This involved working with English articles rather than localized language, and the English community is not near as tight nit and we were unprepared. But we organized and cleaned up (the process is still ongoing). I would like to see the organization and structure on the Arabic Wikipedia worked out with volunteers well before the program is launched, and not work it out as it progresses. As long as we've had time to think it through from lessons learned and being learned as the Global Educations program gets set up we'll have success and build projects. It's important to use prudence. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
