Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
*Kohser wrote: I might be able to give a better answer if you could tell us whether it is Taco Stand A or it is Taco Stand B in your analogy that is the non-profit charity, funded with tax-deductible dollars, whose donors probably fully expected that their money would NOT be used to pay rent to the other, decidedly *for-profit* taco stand.* --- Wow, really? Personally, I had no expectation that the Foundation would decline to do business with for profit entities when I made my donation. If they need more space, then they will probably have to pay to rent it (not paying presents much more serious problems, I'm sure you'd agree). Favoring a non-profit landlord makes no sense to me. All the other reasons cited in this thread for favoring an average bid from Wikia over others apply. I do know that some posters to this list have a strong aversion to anything that makes money, but that sort of fanaticism is safely ignored. Also, the Foundation has a lawyer. You are not a lawyer. It would be an error to take your legal analysis as authoritative. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 6:21 PM, Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.yu wrote: On Saturday 24 January 2009 08:48:56 Gerard Meijssen wrote: When the CIA or any other American governmental organisation has something to share that is of benefit to us, we should be gracious and thankful and accept and reflect what boon we have been given. Recently we accepted some advice from Apple. The people around the UNICEF usability extensions have worked to make their software functional on head. There is a lot of great work done outside of the WMF and it is at our collective loss when all this important work is ditched. If you think the CIA is evil per definition, fine. It does not change one iota the effort that Brion will put into checking into their code or anyone else's code. In the end the code makes it obvious if the CIA is evil in this. CIA is evil by definition. If they offer you something, it will be something that may seem to be beneficial for you, but will in fact benefit them. Given that CIA has much more resources than you, you can never be sure if their help will in fact be detrimental to you. Is the NSA also evil, because the created selinux and gave it to the open source community? open source is a non-zero sum game. In open source, an improvement is able to be beneficial to everyone even when the donator was being selfish and building it only for their own needs. -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Saturday 24 January 2009 09:31:13 Gerard Meijssen wrote: whatever it is we get in the sense of code. In the mean time we have been using the CIA fact book for years now. They indeed have more resources and That is an excellent example, CIA fact book is full of CIA's propaganda and you can never be sure what is propaganda and what is a fact. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Hoi, So the fact that the CIA and the NSA are evil helps us understand why we are paying market prices to Wikia, why we are likely to benefit from the Wikia developed software and why people, all coding MediaWiki, meeting at a water cooler is a great idea.. and incidentally there is no music practice at the Wikia office. Thank you, this will surely help in these deliberations.. GerardM 2009/1/24 Nikola Smolenski smole...@eunet.yu On Saturday 24 January 2009 09:34:32 John Vandenberg wrote: Is the NSA also evil, because the created selinux and gave it to the open source community? No, NSA is evil because it conducts massive illegal spying operations such as ECHELON. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/24 geni geni...@gmail.com: 2009/1/24 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: I would also say that I am happy we're talking about this, and I hope the people asking questions are finding the answers reasonably reassuring :-) Depends. The wikia is a large user therefor we should work with them argument is somewhat worrying because well we know the CIA is also a large user. If the CIA send their changes back and they're of suitable quality, I expect they'll go in. The NSA contributes lots to Linux! - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Naoko Komura wrote: [snip] [Wikia]'s asking price was more than X, but we said our offer price would not be more than the price quoted by X. So, [Wikia] evaluated if they can rent out space higher than our offer price. As there was no higher bidder than us, [Wikia] had agreed to offer the space at our offer price. Hence your statement that Wikia matched the best offer. That seems entirely reasonable. Is it correct to assume that Erik Möller erred in stating that Wikia was offered a fair market rate based on the average of the other options ... obtained? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
to keep nonprofits going. There is nothing wrong with this agreement, and it in no way means that Wikia and Wikimedia are joined. My final point is that you have made these allegations without access to Board and staff documents. You therefore do not have the whole picture and have no standing to criticize those who do. This attempt to create division has no place and distracts us from the Foundation's goal. Sincerely; Geoffrey Plourde From: Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:37:37 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF I was very surprised to read on the Wikimedia blog a post from Naoko Komura, the WMF program manager heading up the Wikipedia Usability Initiative, funded by the Stanton Foundation. Post: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ To quote Komura, On the space front, we had outgrown our current space in the South of Market area of San Francisco, and we were in search of space specifically for this project. I am happy to announce that Wikia has agreed to sublease two of their conference rooms to the Wikimedia Foundation for the project duration (Jan'09-Mar'10). Daniel [Phelps] collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer. I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. I have been assured in countless places that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are complete separate organizations and that there were no business relationships between the members of a past WMF Board that was 60% comprised of Wikia employees/owners. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor down the street. In summary: We know Wikia was recently laying off workers in the economic downturn. Presumably, Wikia now has excess office space per employee. WMF gets a grant, presumably funded by tax-deductible dollars. Expending that grant on office space is served up to an ostensibly open and fair competitive search among 12 candidate landlords. A lowest bid is received. However, a bidder who happens to have strong personnel ties to the Board of WMF and the Advisory Board of WMF, is given the opportunity to match the lowest bid, which they do, since they have empty office space doing them no good empty. Net result: Tax-advantaged dollars will be transferred to a for-profit corporation with an inside track to the decision-making body of the non-profit organization. It strikes me as fishy, to use a gentle word. -- Gregory Kohs Cell: 302.463.1354 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Nikola Smolenski wrote: Given that we know that NSA conducts massive illegal spying operations, there is possibility that selinux is altered in a fashion that will make it easier for NSA to spy on selinux' users. I don't know what are CIA's contributions to MediaWiki, but unless it is trivial to review them, I would not accept them. If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure. You could very well be suspicious about it. But we're talking about open source. They would be providing the changes, which are to be reviewed, like any other code, or perhaps even more, due to coming from the CIA. Take into account that CIA and NSA need good software, too. So if they add a backdoor, they would need to add it *and* at the same time make it easy to protect from it, as they wouldn't want their own systems spied by their own rootkit (and someone will end up forgetting to apply it). Instead, contributing good fixes, make everything easier. OTOH I encourage you to review selinux. That would make a great heading 'Nikola Smolenski discovers NSA backdoor on Linux code' ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/24 Naoko Komura nkom...@gmail.com: Hello, Thomas. I admire your persistence in putting your question forward until your question is answered. :-) Let me try to answer your questions by giving you the background of this negotiation. Persistence is certainly not something I'm lacking! Some disagree about how admirable that is, though... So the number of total quotes collected are ten including Wikia. The criteria of request for quotes were 1) the space needs to house minimum five personnel and (2) the project team needs a meeting room. These ten quotes are not apple-to-apple comparison, for example parameters such as total space availability, infrastructure readiness, meeting room availability, distance from the WMF, access to kitchen, noise level, furnished and etc. Of course, the price varies too. We narrowed down our selection to two office space candidates How did you narrow it down? Was there something specific the cheaper bids were lacking? , one is a shared office (open space) with architects and a game software company, which is near the Moscone Center (15 minutes walk from the WMF). Let's call this space X for simplicity's sake. Wikia's sub-lease space, let's call it W, offered a smaller floor space than X, but the workspace is enclosed and can be shut down from noise, and access to a kitchen and toilet were better than X. Connectivity was ready to go, we just need to install a router for WiFi. W's asking price was more than X, but we said our offer price would not be more than the price quoted by X. So, W evaluated if they can rent out space higher than our offer price. As there was no higher bidder than us, W had agreed to offer the space at our offer price. Well, it certainly sounds like you made the right decision between X and W - a better solution for the same cost, who wouldn't take it? So it seems the only question remaining is about how you came up with the shortlist. Thank you for helping me understand this decision. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Brian wrote: If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure PHP is an interpreted language. Surely you wouldn't use someone elses byte code. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Nikola Smolenski wrote: Given that we know that NSA conducts massive illegal spying operations, there is possibility that selinux is altered in a fashion that will make it easier for NSA to spy on selinux' users. I don't know what are CIA's contributions to MediaWiki, but unless it is trivial to review them, I would not accept them. If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure. You could very well be suspicious about it. But we're talking about open source. They would be providing the changes, which are to be reviewed, like any other code, or perhaps even more, due to coming from the CIA. Take into account that CIA and NSA need good software, too. So if they add a backdoor, they would need to add it *and* at the same time make it easy to protect from it, as they wouldn't want their own systems spied by their own rootkit (and someone will end up forgetting to apply it). Instead, contributing good fixes, make everything easier. OTOH I encourage you to review selinux. That would make a great heading 'Nikola Smolenski discovers NSA backdoor on Linux code' This is getting rather off-topic, especially for this thread, and possibly for the list as well. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/24 Naoko Komura nkom...@gmail.com: On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: Persistence is certainly not something I'm lacking! Some disagree about how admirable that is, though... I think it is a good trait to have and admirable. Well, thank you. More than of the quotes were either above the price range we had in mind or at the high end within the range. The price range we had in mind was $2,500-$3,000 for five to six people. (Additional desk is for a visiting staff from the WMF) There are a few quotes which came below the range, but the space either lacked a meeting space, lacked infrastructure like LAN, or required public transportation from the WMF office. The lease term with Wikia is $2,500 per month, month-to-month. The budget allows us to invest more fund for the space, but we would like to spend the gift prudently. It is always better to set aside funds so that we can invest in reusable tools such as automation of test tools and have ability to expand scope of usability test and product improvements. Sounds good. Thank you. Thank you for helping me understand this decision. You are very welcome. Do you think we are CIO ready if the WMF were U.K.-based entity? :-) I would need to review the legislation. This kind of deal certainly wouldn't be recommended, but it's probably legal. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: It was a clear factual error which I corrected. If you aren't going to criticize the original comment you have no basis for criticizing the correction. At any rate, what exactly is the topic of this thread, in your opinion? On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: Brian wrote: If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure PHP is an interpreted language. Surely you wouldn't use someone elses byte code. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Nikola Smolenski wrote: Given that we know that NSA conducts massive illegal spying operations, there is possibility that selinux is altered in a fashion that will make it easier for NSA to spy on selinux' users. I don't know what are CIA's contributions to MediaWiki, but unless it is trivial to review them, I would not accept them. If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure. You could very well be suspicious about it. But we're talking about open source. They would be providing the changes, which are to be reviewed, like any other code, or perhaps even more, due to coming from the CIA. Take into account that CIA and NSA need good software, too. So if they add a backdoor, they would need to add it *and* at the same time make it easy to protect from it, as they wouldn't want their own systems spied by their own rootkit (and someone will end up forgetting to apply it). Instead, contributing good fixes, make everything easier. OTOH I encourage you to review selinux. That would make a great heading 'Nikola Smolenski discovers NSA backdoor on Linux code' This is getting rather off-topic, especially for this thread, and possibly for the list as well. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l This thread is (supposedly) about Wikia leasing some office space to the WMF. How it degenerated into a conspiracy-fest about the CIA/NSA, I haven't figured out yet. In any case, Alex's comments echo my own: this back-and-forth has veered horribly off-topic. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
I'm criticizing the switch from Wikia leasing office space to WMF to Is the CIA evil? I just responded to the most recent email in my inbox; I thought that would be more appropriate than responding to all 17 CIA/NSA-related emails. I was not criticizing you in particular. The topic of this thread is Wikia leasing office space to WMF, that should be rather clear from the subject. And the topic of the list is Wikimedia related issues. Its almost on topic for the list (MediaWiki is at least mentioned occasionally), its certainly not at all related to the topic of the thread. Brian wrote: It was a clear factual error which I corrected. If you aren't going to criticize the original comment you have no basis for criticizing the correction. At any rate, what exactly is the topic of this thread, in your opinion? On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: Brian wrote: If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure PHP is an interpreted language. Surely you wouldn't use someone elses byte code. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Nikola Smolenski wrote: Given that we know that NSA conducts massive illegal spying operations, there is possibility that selinux is altered in a fashion that will make it easier for NSA to spy on selinux' users. I don't know what are CIA's contributions to MediaWiki, but unless it is trivial to review them, I would not accept them. If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure. You could very well be suspicious about it. But we're talking about open source. They would be providing the changes, which are to be reviewed, like any other code, or perhaps even more, due to coming from the CIA. Take into account that CIA and NSA need good software, too. So if they add a backdoor, they would need to add it *and* at the same time make it easy to protect from it, as they wouldn't want their own systems spied by their own rootkit (and someone will end up forgetting to apply it). Instead, contributing good fixes, make everything easier. OTOH I encourage you to review selinux. That would make a great heading 'Nikola Smolenski discovers NSA backdoor on Linux code' This is getting rather off-topic, especially for this thread, and possibly for the list as well. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Let me make my position clear: * Correcting factual errors is always appropriate. * This thread no longer has a clear topic. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: I'm criticizing the switch from Wikia leasing office space to WMF to Is the CIA evil? I just responded to the most recent email in my inbox; I thought that would be more appropriate than responding to all 17 CIA/NSA-related emails. I was not criticizing you in particular. The topic of this thread is Wikia leasing office space to WMF, that should be rather clear from the subject. And the topic of the list is Wikimedia related issues. Its almost on topic for the list (MediaWiki is at least mentioned occasionally), its certainly not at all related to the topic of the thread. Brian wrote: It was a clear factual error which I corrected. If you aren't going to criticize the original comment you have no basis for criticizing the correction. At any rate, what exactly is the topic of this thread, in your opinion? On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Alex mrzmanw...@gmail.com wrote: Brian wrote: If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure PHP is an interpreted language. Surely you wouldn't use someone elses byte code. On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:32 AM, Platonides platoni...@gmail.com wrote: Nikola Smolenski wrote: Given that we know that NSA conducts massive illegal spying operations, there is possibility that selinux is altered in a fashion that will make it easier for NSA to spy on selinux' users. I don't know what are CIA's contributions to MediaWiki, but unless it is trivial to review them, I would not accept them. If the CIA were to hand you a improved-mediawiki binary, sure. You could very well be suspicious about it. But we're talking about open source. They would be providing the changes, which are to be reviewed, like any other code, or perhaps even more, due to coming from the CIA. Take into account that CIA and NSA need good software, too. So if they add a backdoor, they would need to add it *and* at the same time make it easy to protect from it, as they wouldn't want their own systems spied by their own rootkit (and someone will end up forgetting to apply it). Instead, contributing good fixes, make everything easier. OTOH I encourage you to review selinux. That would make a great heading 'Nikola Smolenski discovers NSA backdoor on Linux code' This is getting rather off-topic, especially for this thread, and possibly for the list as well. -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- Alex (wikipedia:en:User:Mr.Z-man) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
I think that in the future the office staff may need to look at preemptive press releases. That would have eliminated this thread quickly. From: David Levy lifeisunf...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 3:16:07 AM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF I wrote: To clarify, did Wikia match the lowest bid? Geoffrey Plourde replied: Mr. Levy; I respectfully believe that you are asking the wrong question. Rent is only a small part of cost. The whole cost should have been the arbiter in this matter, and I suspect it was from the posts by personnel. I'm certainly not implying that rent was the only valid consideration. I asked the question because there was confusion regarding this specific point (with many people under the incorrect impression that Wikia's bid tied the lowest). I personally agree with the decision to rent office space from Wikia, but I also agree that it's likely to come across as suspicious to many (and therefore warrants intense scrutiny). As others have noted, the mere appearance of impropriety (even where none exists) can be injurious to an organization's reputation. Thus far, I'm pleased with the forthright response from those involved in the decision. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Geoffrey Plourde said: Why should a taco stand use a dry cleaning shop when it can get another taco shop? Gregory Kohs responds: I might be able to give a better answer if you could tell us whether it is Taco Stand A or it is Taco Stand B in your analogy that is the non-profit charity, funded with tax-deductible dollars, whose donors probably fully expected that their money would NOT be used to pay rent to the other, decidedly *for-profit* taco stand. Geoffrey Plourde also said (twice) that he disagrees with my assertion of nepotism. Gregory Kohs responds: I have never said that this situation is nepotism, and in fact I corrected someone else that it was *not* nepotism. I am of the understanding that none of the members of the WMF Board or staff are related by blood or marriage to any of the owners or staff of Wikia, Inc. I did say (either here or elsewhere) that at one time 60% of the WMF Board were all employed by Wikia, Inc., but that's not a family thing, as far as I know. Let me just ask here... are any of the participants on this list expert in the legal statutes that surround the issue of self-dealing? For example, has anyone who has commented thus far actually read: 26 U.S.C.A. § 4941 (1969)? Self-dealing includes sale or exchange, or leasing, of property between a private foundation and a disqualified person; and a disqualified person may be a foundation manager or an owner of more than 20 percent of either (i) the total combined voting power of a corporation, or (ii) the profits interest of a partnership. I don't know whether Jimmy Wales retains 20% of the voting power or profits interest of Wikia, Inc., and I am not asking that, but he could certainly be considered a foundation manager, no? Please, in your rush to judgment about the character of my attacks here, take some time to actually explore and learn about United States law. The Foundation could be in serious trouble here, and you're spending an awful lot of energy railing against the messenger. Greg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
As a Board trustee, I don't believe that Jimmy would fall under the manager scheme. If this were the case, a Foundation could be barred from buying Apple computers from Apple, if Steve jobs were on their board. From: Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 12:53:51 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF Geoffrey Plourde said: Why should a taco stand use a dry cleaning shop when it can get another taco shop? Gregory Kohs responds: I might be able to give a better answer if you could tell us whether it is Taco Stand A or it is Taco Stand B in your analogy that is the non-profit charity, funded with tax-deductible dollars, whose donors probably fully expected that their money would NOT be used to pay rent to the other, decidedly *for-profit* taco stand. Geoffrey Plourde also said (twice) that he disagrees with my assertion of nepotism. Gregory Kohs responds: I have never said that this situation is nepotism, and in fact I corrected someone else that it was *not* nepotism. I am of the understanding that none of the members of the WMF Board or staff are related by blood or marriage to any of the owners or staff of Wikia, Inc. I did say (either here or elsewhere) that at one time 60% of the WMF Board were all employed by Wikia, Inc., but that's not a family thing, as far as I know. Let me just ask here... are any of the participants on this list expert in the legal statutes that surround the issue of self-dealing? For example, has anyone who has commented thus far actually read: 26 U.S.C.A. § 4941 (1969)? Self-dealing includes sale or exchange, or leasing, of property between a private foundation and a disqualified person; and a disqualified person may be a foundation manager or an owner of more than 20 percent of either (i) the total combined voting power of a corporation, or (ii) the profits interest of a partnership. I don't know whether Jimmy Wales retains 20% of the voting power or profits interest of Wikia, Inc., and I am not asking that, but he could certainly be considered a foundation manager, no? Please, in your rush to judgment about the character of my attacks here, take some time to actually explore and learn about United States law. The Foundation could be in serious trouble here, and you're spending an awful lot of energy railing against the messenger. Greg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/24 Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com: Please, in your rush to judgment about the character of my attacks here, take some time to actually explore and learn about United States law. The Foundation could be in serious trouble here, and you're spending an awful lot of energy railing against the messenger. You're a troll. You spend tremendous time and effort around the blogosphere posting attacks on Wikipedia and Wikimedia wherever you can. Your comments get deleted from the WMF blog when they're trolling, and it so happens they almost always are. You're *still* furiously sockpuppeting on en:wp as well. Given this, of course I'll assume you're trolling here as well, because, well, you are. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
How was this message constructive? If you think he's a troll, don't respond to him. I happen to think he raised some interesting issues. Mark 2009/1/24 David Gerard dger...@gmail.com: 2009/1/24 Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com: Please, in your rush to judgment about the character of my attacks here, take some time to actually explore and learn about United States law. The Foundation could be in serious trouble here, and you're spending an awful lot of energy railing against the messenger. You're a troll. You spend tremendous time and effort around the blogosphere posting attacks on Wikipedia and Wikimedia wherever you can. Your comments get deleted from the WMF blog when they're trolling, and it so happens they almost always are. You're *still* furiously sockpuppeting on en:wp as well. Given this, of course I'll assume you're trolling here as well, because, well, you are. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l -- skype: node.ue ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
I was very surprised to read on the Wikimedia blog a post from Naoko Komura, the WMF program manager heading up the Wikipedia Usability Initiative, funded by the Stanton Foundation. Post: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ To quote Komura, On the space front, we had outgrown our current space in the South of Market area of San Francisco, and we were in search of space specifically for this project. I am happy to announce that Wikia has agreed to sublease two of their conference rooms to the Wikimedia Foundation for the project duration (Jan'09-Mar'10). Daniel [Phelps] collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer. I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. I have been assured in countless places that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are complete separate organizations and that there were no business relationships between the members of a past WMF Board that was 60% comprised of Wikia employees/owners. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor down the street. In summary: We know Wikia was recently laying off workers in the economic downturn. Presumably, Wikia now has excess office space per employee. WMF gets a grant, presumably funded by tax-deductible dollars. Expending that grant on office space is served up to an ostensibly open and fair competitive search among 12 candidate landlords. A lowest bid is received. However, a bidder who happens to have strong personnel ties to the Board of WMF and the Advisory Board of WMF, is given the opportunity to match the lowest bid, which they do, since they have empty office space doing them no good empty. Net result: Tax-advantaged dollars will be transferred to a for-profit corporation with an inside track to the decision-making body of the non-profit organization. It strikes me as fishy, to use a gentle word. -- Gregory Kohs Cell: 302.463.1354 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I'd appreciate answers to those questions as well. I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. It does seem likely to confuse. Only a couple of days ago I had to explain to someone that we had nothing to do with Wikia and had to qualify that by mentioning that there was some sharing of personnel, in future I'll have to qualify it even more. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor down the street. I don't see the connection there, I'm afraid. Essjay's employment at Wikia had nothing to do with WMF, it just happened to be how we all found out about his true identity. In WMF's defence, this sentence from the blog may at least partly explain the decision: Wikia has been doing intensive work on the usability front and making the code available to public, so I look forward to collaborating with the Wikia technical and product teams to exchange ideas and learn from their work. There is a certain amount of logic in working with one of the biggest non-WMF MediaWiki users on this project. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Thanks for the heads-up, now I'm frightened... Seriously, I have nothing against you raising these questions, but sentences like the above won't help your cause and will just allow other people to dismiss your arguments more quickly. M. -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked of they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit branch of Wikipedia with ads. There are potential conflicts of interest at nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: I was very surprised to read on the Wikimedia blog a post from Naoko Komura, the WMF program manager heading up the Wikipedia Usability Initiative, funded by the Stanton Foundation. Post: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ To quote Komura, On the space front, we had outgrown our current space in the South of Market area of San Francisco, and we were in search of space specifically for this project. I am happy to announce that Wikia has agreed to sublease two of their conference rooms to the Wikimedia Foundation for the project duration (Jan'09-Mar'10). Daniel [Phelps] collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer. I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. I have been assured in countless places that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are complete separate organizations and that there were no business relationships between the members of a past WMF Board that was 60% comprised of Wikia employees/owners. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor down the street. In summary: We know Wikia was recently laying off workers in the economic downturn. Presumably, Wikia now has excess office space per employee. WMF gets a grant, presumably funded by tax-deductible dollars. Expending that grant on office space is served up to an ostensibly open and fair competitive search among 12 candidate landlords. A lowest bid is received. However, a bidder who happens to have strong personnel ties to the Board of WMF and the Advisory Board of WMF, is given the opportunity to match the lowest bid, which they do, since they have empty office space doing them no good empty. Net result: Tax-advantaged dollars will be transferred to a for-profit corporation with an inside track to the decision-making body of the non-profit organization. It strikes me as fishy, to use a gentle word. -- Gregory Kohs Cell: 302.463.1354 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 2:37 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. I don't mean to be pugilistic here, but...so? A blog isn't really a publicly accessible forum, even if some people choose to open theirs as such. Also, which members of the press are you forwarding the traffic to? Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I'm not sure it matters, the deal with Wikia provides an interesting opporty for a number of reasons, not just the bottom-line financial ones. Wikia has been doing a lot of work with MediaWiki, especially concerning usuability. Also, there is a location issue that's worth considering too. Close proximity to the WMF headquarters, an as-good-as-best cost, and an opportunity to work near other engineers on a similar project is quite a good package deal that isn't really worth second-guessing. Even if the next 10 closest bidders all matched or beat that same price when given a second chance, they probably could not have matched the other benefits of the Wikia offer. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. It's like when companies hire new people, they like people with significant experience in the same industry. It's not nepotism to say that you want to work with, and to work near, people who are doing similar work as what you are doing. It's also not nepotism if you aren't showing undo favoritism: Wikia matched the best offer and brings additional value to the deal in a number of other ways that I doubt could be matched by any of the other bidders. We know Wikia was recently laying off workers in the economic downturn. Presumably, Wikia now has excess office space per employee. WMF gets a grant, presumably funded by tax-deductible dollars. Expending that grant on office space is served up to an ostensibly open and fair competitive search among 12 candidate landlords. A lowest bid is received. However, a bidder who happens to have strong personnel ties to the Board of WMF and the Advisory Board of WMF, is given the opportunity to match the lowest bid, which they do, since they have empty office space doing them no good empty. Net result: Tax-advantaged dollars will be transferred to a for-profit corporation with an inside track to the decision-making body of the non-profit organization. It strikes me as fishy, to use a gentle word. It's fishy that the WMF choose a bid that was equal to the best bid financially, and had additional non-financial value as well? That's not fishy, that's good business. Fishy would be if the WMF choose to accept Wikia's bid if it was not equal to the lowest bid on the table (and even then, it might still make sense considering the added value of the Wikia bid). That Wikia may be struggling financially is not surprising in this economy either, so I don't know why you even bring that up. --Andrew Whitworth ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On 1/23/09 11:49 AM, Thomas Dalton wrote: Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I'd appreciate answers to those questions as well. Wikia's space is physically closer to WMF's main office than the best other bid, making it easier for the project team to work with the main office. (We'd much rather keep them *in* our main office, but we're simply out of room!) The fact that Wikia also has software developers working on MediaWiki usability is a big plus as well -- being physically close to Wikia's office makes technical collaboration with their team easier, which translates directly to benefiting end users. These benefits would be present even if the price didn't match the best other offer, but would have been outweighed by a significant price difference (or being able to increase our primary space at an effective cost, say by taking over the space next door which is alas not currently available). Wikia has been doing intensive work on the usability front and making the code available to public, so I look forward to collaborating with the Wikia technical and product teams to exchange ideas and learn from their work. There is a certain amount of logic in working with one of the biggest non-WMF MediaWiki users on this project. Bingo. -- brion ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
The Foundation was searching for rooms because the current rooms are already quite crowded (everyone who had visited the office can confirm this) and because we will start the usability project we are going to hire three more developers. Thus the Foundation has either to lease offices in the vincinity or have to move completely into a new, bigger site. The Foundation has set up a list of criterias in search: First of all, move to a new site is more costly than lease additional office. Second the office that are searched should be near the main office, for better communication and tech supports. Third the office must have sufficiant tech infrastructures. And naturally it should be of a convinient price. After checking many possibilities at last the Foundation had decided to lease the offices from Wikia, mainly because all criterias above fills at best by the Wikia site. The lease contract is a standard contract with no additional terms. The lease price is average SF lease price. It is directly beside the main office and it provides the infrastructure we need. That's all. There are no other things running here. The board was informed about the searching of additional or new office while its October 2008 meeting and was informed about the leasing of the Wikia office in its January meeting. And if someone is interested in this: I am told that Jimmy is not involved in this matter, neither on the WMF side nor on the Wikia side. Ting ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
(We'd much rather keep them *in* our main office, but we're simply out of room!) I'm curious, how did that happen exactly? You didn't get the office that long ago and most of the recent hires have been planned a fair amount of time in advance. Why did you get a bigger office to start with? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Out of curiosity, will the cost of leasing the space be deducted from the usability grant funds? Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Wikia has been doing intensive work on the usability front and making the code available to public, so I look forward to collaborating with the Wikia technical and product teams to exchange ideas and learn from their work. There is a certain amount of logic in working with one of the biggest non-WMF MediaWiki users on this project. Bingo. -- brion It would appear that nobody is concerned about giving the landlord a leg up on ITS for-profit competitors by supplying them in particular with a ready feed of intellectual capital in the form of the friendly Stanton-funded developers? Lucky for Wikia, Inc.! I mean, assume good faith all you want, but if I were a biotech firm trying to develop a synthetic blood plasma, boy would I love to have the Red Cross' top research scientists parked in my meeting rooms every day. And PAYING me for the privilege, to boot? That's just gravy. It sounds to me that the (reasonable) criteria that ranked proximity to WMF and cognate activities as high as, or higher than, monthly rental rate rather wired this contract to Wikia, Inc. from the get-go. Kudos for putting on the dutiful show of obtaining 12 separate bids, but the outside world is seeing this for what it is -- a show of equanimity to gloss over a pre-determined outcome. As for Master Bimmler's concerns about the fear imposed by mention of the media watching, it's only natural for someone who has recently and historically been censored for asking pertinent questions, to want some sort of back up to assure him he is not living in a digital version of a Kafkaesque nightmare. If your team would stop censoring WP:BADTHOUGHTS, maybe there wouldn't be such a rush to the media? Gregory Kohs ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: It would appear that nobody is concerned about giving the landlord a leg up on ITS for-profit competitors by supplying them in particular with a ready feed of intellectual capital in the form of the friendly Stanton-funded developers? All the changes are going to be open-source, and the development process will be open. I can't see why you would object to Wikimedia collaborating with one of the largest end-users of MediaWiki on improving the software. I can't see what the claimed conflict of interest is, either. Did anyone involved in the decision, from Wikimedia's side, have any connections to Wikia? So far both Brion Vibber and Ting Chen have said that it was the best offer, and neither of them is or ever has been affiliated with Wikia in any way to my knowledge. If there's no conflict of interest, then what grounds are there for suggesting any wrongdoing? If the deal is good for Wikia, why should Wikimedia care one way or the other, if it was the best offer from their perspective? So good for Wikia, they offered the best terms and might get better access because of it. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Nathan wrote: Out of curiosity, will the cost of leasing the space be deducted from the usability grant funds? Normal overhead costs were budgeted into the grant from the beginning. That's one of the reasons we're not using it to hire 30 developers at $30,000 a year, but setting more realistic goals for it. While I can't say exactly offhand what the accounting mechanics will be, the lease should have no negative effect, either on our ability to execute the usability grant as intended, or on the use of unrestricted donations for the normal purposes of the foundation. --Michael Snow ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
The issue is pretty plain and simple: * Our Office Manager explored several options, including Wikia; * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; * After some negotiation, Wikia accepted. Weighing other pros and cons of the space against other options, we decided to go with Wikia; * Neither Jimmy Wales nor anyone else involved with both WMF and Wikia was involved in this decision-making process, to avoid any conflict of interest. I know that Wikia/WMF related stuff is pretty exciting, but really, we have work to do. We're not going to not make a decision that is right just because it creates fodder for trolling. (And I hope that if this turns into a troll-fest, the list moderators will take appropriate action.) -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Erik Moeller wrote: [snip] * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; * After some negotiation, Wikia accepted. Weighing other pros and cons of the space against other options, we decided to go with Wikia; To clarify, did Wikia match the lowest bid? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: I'm curious, how did that happen exactly? You didn't get the office that long ago and most of the recent hires have been planned a fair amount of time in advance. Growth can be unpredictable for a number of reasons - changing assumptions about capacity needs, revenue, etc.; the normal unpredictable factors in any hiring process, etc. This is all expected and normal for an organization that was, last year, essentially in start-up mode. The Stanton usability grant, specifically, was not a planned or anticipated opportunity: we always expected that we'd be doing significant work in that area, but we were lucky to find a funder whose goals were lined up with ours to allow this to happen on a larger scale and sooner than we expected. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: It would appear that nobody is concerned about giving the landlord a leg up on ITS for-profit competitors by supplying them in particular with a ready feed of intellectual capital in the form of the friendly Stanton-funded developers? Lucky for Wikia, Inc.! I mean, assume good faith all you want, but if I were a biotech firm trying to develop a synthetic blood plasma, boy would I love to have the Red Cross' top research scientists parked in my meeting rooms every day. And PAYING me for the privilege, to boot? That's just gravy. Wikia didn't make the decision, the WMF did. The WMF decided to accept Wikia's bid because of the benefits that the deal brought to the WMF. The fact that Wikia also happens to benefit from the arrangement (while, at the same time, receiving the lowest financial compensation of any of the bidders), is just a nice coincidence for them. You're ignoring the fact that this arrangement is the best deal for the WMF, and is the most efficient and most responsible use of it's funds. Of course, If the WMF instead used their money in a less responsible manner by going with a higher bidding landlord, you'd find fault with that too, wouldn't you Greg? It sounds to me that the (reasonable) criteria that ranked proximity to WMF and cognate activities as high as, or higher than, monthly rental rate rather wired this contract to Wikia, Inc. from the get-go. Kudos for putting on the dutiful show of obtaining 12 separate bids, but the outside world is seeing this for what it is -- a show of equanimity to gloss over a pre-determined outcome. Let's recap: Wikia submitted the LOWEST bid. The deal with Wikia is saving the WMF money, and bringing the WMF additional benefits as well. I don't mind people crying wolf when a real misdeed has been committed, but no such misdeed has occured here. The WMF solicited bids, there were two bids that tied for lowest price, and the WMF selected the option that brought the most value with it. This is good business and responsible use of tax-advantaged dollars. As for Master Bimmler's concerns about the fear imposed by mention of the media watching, it's only natural for someone who has recently and historically been censored for asking pertinent questions, to want some sort of back up to assure him he is not living in a digital version of a Kafkaesque nightmare. If your team would stop censoring WP:BADTHOUGHTS, maybe there wouldn't be such a rush to the media? So all this time it's been our fault that we get trolled? Shame on the victim! --Andrew Whitworth ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; Average, or cheapest? If it really was average, then you're going to have need to justify precisely how the added bonuses from Wikia are worth whatever the difference was between the cheapest and the average. You need to use an abundance of caution when you're a charity doing business dealings with a company whose board overlaps with yours. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 David Levy lifeisunf...@gmail.com: Erik Moeller wrote: [snip] * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; * After some negotiation, Wikia accepted. Weighing other pros and cons of the space against other options, we decided to go with Wikia; To clarify, did Wikia match the lowest bid? No, and we didn't ask them to. We obtained about a dozen bids, ranging from about $150 to $565 per person/month. Obviously all those spaces had different characteristics. Wikia was in the running because it had desirable characteristics from the start (high proximity, shared kitchen access, shared speakerphone use, shared Internet connection, etc.). We used averaging as a way to arrive at a fair market rate to neither advantage nor disadvantage Wikia when suggesting a rate. The averaging also resulted in a rate that was roughly equivalent to the most comparable space in the running. Wikia, too, looked at different potential tenants for the space. The final rate we negotiated was slightly higher than the most comparable option we looked at (and considered very seriously, including a site visit). However, the relative advantages of the Wikia space compensated for that. We were quite careful not to draw any special advantages from our relationship to Wikia, and Wikia was careful to treat us in our negotiations like any other tenant. While we're likely to work with them on technical aspects of the projects, we were also careful to keep that completely separate. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: 2009/1/23 David Levy lifeisunf...@gmail.com: Erik Moeller wrote: [snip] * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; * After some negotiation, Wikia accepted. Weighing other pros and cons of the space against other options, we decided to go with Wikia; To clarify, did Wikia match the lowest bid? No, and we didn't ask them to. We obtained about a dozen bids, ranging from about $150 to $565 per person/month. Obviously all those spaces had different characteristics. Wikia was in the running because it had desirable characteristics from the start (high proximity, shared kitchen access, shared speakerphone use, shared Internet connection, etc.). We used averaging as a way to arrive at a fair market rate to neither advantage nor disadvantage Wikia when suggesting a rate. The averaging also resulted in a rate that was roughly equivalent to the most comparable space in the running. Is that common practice for US charities? I'm not sure that would cut it in the UK... Wikia, too, looked at different potential tenants for the space. The final rate we negotiated was slightly higher than the most comparable option we looked at (and considered very seriously, including a site visit). However, the relative advantages of the Wikia space compensated for that. We were quite careful not to draw any special advantages from our relationship to Wikia, and Wikia was careful to treat us in our negotiations like any other tenant. While we're likely to work with them on technical aspects of the projects, we were also careful to keep that completely separate. You don't just need to avoid a COI, you need to avoid the perception of one. This deal will, undoubtedly, be interpreted by many as an inside job. I'm sure it isn't, but that's how a lot of people will see it. Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it all up? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Erik Moeller wrote: I know that Wikia/WMF related stuff is pretty exciting, but really, we have work to do. We're not going to not make a decision that is right just because it creates fodder for trolling. (And I hope that if this turns into a troll-fest, the list moderators will take appropriate action.) Mailing-list controversy is hardly the main PR problem here; the continuing confusion this creates in the wider world about the extent to which Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are entangled is a bigger one. It certainly *looks* suspicious. I know if something like this happened at some other organization I wasn't involved in---say, the Sierra Club was leasing space from a for-profit environmental lobbying firm founded by a Sierra Club board member---I would certainly raise my eyebrows, and I'd be skeptical when they assured me that there really weren't any shenanigans going on. There's a reason organizations that depend on public goodwill try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety in this sort of respect, and auditors usually suggest avoiding those sorts of entanglements. -Mark ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Delirium delir...@hackish.org writes: There's a reason organizations that depend on public goodwill try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety in this sort of respect, and auditors usually suggest avoiding those sorts of entanglements. Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? -- /Wegge ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? I'm somewhat confused - Delirium's comment here is reasonable, accurate, and a legitimate concern, as opposed to some of the rest of the thread. Not to me, and it just happened to be the one that tripped my trigger setting. -- /Wegge ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Anders Wegge Keller wrote: Delirium delir...@hackish.org writes: There's a reason organizations that depend on public goodwill try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety in this sort of respect, and auditors usually suggest avoiding those sorts of entanglements. Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? In what respect is it crackpottish or kookery to suggest that even appearance of impropriety, even where none exists, is damaging to nonprofit organizations that depend on public goodwill? I'm not alleging that any actual impropriety took place, and I believe Erik's explanations. But that's only because I know several of the board members and believe they have Wikimedia's best interests in mind---heck, I recall publicly campaigning for Erik's election to the board some time ago. Most people, however, neither know the board nor have any particularly great knowledge of Wikimedia's internals. Were it any other organization, as in my Sierra Club example, I wouldn't believe the explanation, so I wouldn't blame non-Wikimedians who read about this in the newspaper if they were a bit skeptical. That seems like it'll inevitably be damaging from a PR and fundraising perspective. I believe Erik's explanation of the space's benefits, I just think the Board is underestimating the negative effects to the Foundation's reputation. -Mark ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, Having an office close to the main office, having an environment that is shared with colleagues who way are sharing their impressive usability improvements are tangible benefits. I agree, the issue is with how much you value them. They definitely have a value, but I haven't, as yet, seem any attempt to quantify that. The cost of the office space conforms to market rates. Sure, but they don't conform to the cheapest rate. Any decision by a charity to spend more money than is strictly necessary needs to be justified. I'm not saying that it's unjustifiable, it just hasn't been justified yet. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? I'm somewhat confused - Delirium's comment here is reasonable, accurate, and a legitimate concern, as opposed to some of the rest of the thread. Not to me, and it just happened to be the one that tripped my trigger setting. I respectfully request that you review it and reconsider. There have been plenty of what I would consider to be hostile or kookish comments by those who do not wish the Foundation well in this thread. Delirium's comments seem to me to clearly be those of a concerned but constructively engaged community member. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Delirium delir...@hackish.org writes: Anders Wegge Keller wrote: Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? In what respect is it crackpottish or kookery to suggest that even appearance of impropriety, even where none exists, is damaging to nonprofit organizations that depend on public goodwill? Except for being the umpteent person to continue the line of aggressive questioning, none. You just happened to be the unlucky roll of the dice. -- /Wegge ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Anders Wegge Keller wrote: Delirium delir...@hackish.org writes: Anders Wegge Keller wrote: Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list In what respect is it crackpottish or kookery to suggest that even appearance of impropriety, even where none exists, is damaging to nonprofit organizations that depend on public goodwill? Except for being the umpteent person to continue the line of aggressive questioning, none. You just happened to be the unlucky roll of the dice. I'd like to respectfully ask the participants of this fork of the thread to immediately cease responding to it. Thanks. Cary ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
I find it interesting that critics of the Foundation are necessarily either a troll, crackpot or kook, and yet, by my estimation, each one of these critics has been around longer than the Foundation and wishes to make sure that it develops in a manner consistent with the much older philosophy surrounding the projects. Here's a criticism the foundation really ought to consider: Quit calling us trolls, crackpots and kooks and simply address the matters in a factual way. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com writes: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:49 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: Not to me, and it just happened to be the one that tripped my trigger setting. I respectfully request that you review it and reconsider. Request denied. I stand by what I said, and you can be polite from here to eternity, but I consider Delerium a kook in his own right, nonwithstanding a seemingly thin veneer of civility in this case. .okay, and at this point I think that this thread becomes a certain waste of bits, no offense to anyone in particular ;-) May I recommend a few breathes of fresh air for everyone or, alternatively, a strong cup of tea? Michael -- Michael Bimmler mbimm...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: . Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it all up? Of course. It's a normal transaction and any noise about it is likely going to be ephemeral. We will continue to calmly and sensibly explain it to reasonable people, and that's all there is to it. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Delirium wrote: Most people, however, neither know the board nor have any particularly great knowledge of Wikimedia's internals. Were it any other organization, as in my Sierra Club example, I wouldn't believe the explanation, so I wouldn't blame non-Wikimedians who read about this in the newspaper if they were a bit skeptical. That seems like it'll inevitably be damaging from a PR and fundraising perspective. I believe Erik's explanation of the space's benefits, I just think the Board is underestimating the negative effects to the Foundation's reputation. Anyone familiar enough with the background to understand why the lease might be an issue has probably formed their opinion about the potential for conflicts already. So I don't believe it will have a negative impact outside of people who have already made up their minds and won't reconsider. This discussion itself is evidence of that, as it seems the only person who thinks the lease is actually bad, as opposed to possibly looking bad, has a long history of finding fault with us no matter what. With regard to any impact on public relations or fundraising generally - if there are donors or media professionals who don't believe Erik's explanation (even without any evidence to the contrary), I'll be happy to discuss it with them. --Michael Snow ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use, shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in the same building. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com The natural state of these discussions is that there are always people pissing in the wind. That spoils things somewhat. Hear hear, true words in a typical Dutch wording. :-) I am amazed about the transparency and openess the staff members are giving here, and I am looking forward to the results of these splendid work conditions. Kind regards Ziko Wer durch des Argwohns Brille schaut, sieht Raupen selbst im Sauerkraut. Wilhelm Busch -- Ziko van Dijk NL-Silvolde ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu wrote: I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked of they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit branch of Wikipedia with ads. There are potential conflicts of interest at nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. I never thought I would say what comes next. As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the best things that has happened to the usability project. About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability project. About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion, probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user friendly. Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its evolution _for the best_ of users? I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software. And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere. Cheers, Delphine -- ~notafish NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.) I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use, shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in the same building. I was looking for something a little more quantitative. I know it is difficult to quantify these things, which is why, in my experience, charities usually err on the side of caution. In fact, the model governing documents for the UK Charities Commission explicitly forbids any such dealings with companies that share directors with the charity (I'm not sure the law requires such strict rules, but they are certainly recommended). ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com: 2009/1/24 Anthony wikim...@inbox.org: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Delphine Ménard notafi...@gmail.comwrote: My reply isn't specific to what Thomas wrote; this is a general comment on this thread. I've been reading it with a lot of interest, and there are a couple of things I'd like to add to what's already been said. First, I want to be clear – it was my decision to sublet the space from Wikia. I believe it's the right thing for Wikimedia :-) It's the right decision from a practical standpoint, for the reasons outlined earlier by Erik and others. And beyond that, I also believe it is appropriate and reasonable for the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikia to have a normal working relationship – one that is neither overly entangled, nor exaggeratedly distant. Wikia does not do exactly what we do, but it does similar work. It makes sense for us to have a collegial, friendly relationship with Wikia, exactly as we do with dozens of other organizations who do work that is similar to ours, or aligned with it. I would also say that I am happy we're talking about this, and I hope the people asking questions are finding the answers reasonably reassuring :-) ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
2009/1/24 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: I would also say that I am happy we're talking about this, and I hope the people asking questions are finding the answers reasonably reassuring :-) Depends. The wikia is a large user therefor we should work with them argument is somewhat worrying because well we know the CIA is also a large user. -- geni ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/1/24 Anthony wikim...@inbox.org: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Delphine Ménard notafi...@gmail.com wrote: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion, probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a way that makes sense for the users. And what better way to do that then to have people come down to the Wikia office and work on improving Wikia's software, while the Wikimedia Foundation pays for not only the developers, but rent on the space they use while developing! Who cares if Wikia benefits? It's the benefit to WMF that matters. As long as it is an undeniably good business decision for WMF, the fact that it's also a good deal for Wikia doesn't factor into it. It doesn't factor into it? You'd make a terrible used car salesman! Anyway, I think you're reading more into what I wrote than I intended. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 7:07 PM, geni geni...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/1/24 Sue Gardner sgard...@wikimedia.org: I would also say that I am happy we're talking about this, and I hope the people asking questions are finding the answers reasonably reassuring :-) Depends. The wikia is a large user therefor we should work with them argument is somewhat worrying because well we know the CIA is also a large user. What the CIA has admitted doing to Mediawiki (adding in the classification levels and more robust audit trail stuff, etc) is consistent with increasing usability for some commercial environments, where current access control / management features are somewhat marginal. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Mr Kohs; Some of your points have merit as there are many areas in which we can and should improve. However, I must respectfully note that your comments here serve only to divide a already fractured community even further. As a Californian, I disagree with your assertions of nepotism and favoritism most vehemently. Since you live in Pennsylvania, you may not be aware of this but rents in California tend to be fairly exorbitant. San Francisco is no exception. Office space has always been at a premium. When looking at bids, I assume that our hard working staff took many factors into consideration, as price is one out of many important items. One major factor would be the working dynamic and utilization. Wikia and Wikimedia, although different types of corporations, utilize the same software for similar purposes. This means that the Wikia office space would be usable by Foundation staff, as it would already be designed for those working with wikis. With another landlord, the Foundation might need to reconfigure the space, which costs time and money. Also, Wikia staff would be competent enough to assist with problems and capable of making changes. Another landlord might be difficult to reach or unable to work with staff to alleviate problems. Also they might not be able to understand what staff would need and be difficult to work with. The real cost is never just the sticker price, its all the hidden surprises. Renting from a similar organization eliminates these hidden surprises and makes for a smooth transition. You also make the assertion of nepotism and impropriety. I fail to see why this is improper. Big whoop, Jimbo owns Wikia. Everybody knows it and it has never been hidden. He isn't going to profit from a simple subletting deal. Wikia has bills too and I assume has to pay rent. This makes the transfer of money moot, as money goes into private coffers all the time to keep nonprofits going. There is nothing wrong with this agreement, and it in no way means that Wikia and Wikimedia are joined. My final point is that you have made these allegations without access to Board and staff documents. You therefore do not have the whole picture and have no standing to criticize those who do. This attempt to create division has no place and distracts us from the Foundation's goal. Sincerely; Geoffrey Plourde From: Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:37:37 AM Subject: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF I was very surprised to read on the Wikimedia blog a post from Naoko Komura, the WMF program manager heading up the Wikipedia Usability Initiative, funded by the Stanton Foundation. Post: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ To quote Komura, On the space front, we had outgrown our current space in the South of Market area of San Francisco, and we were in search of space specifically for this project. I am happy to announce that Wikia has agreed to sublease two of their conference rooms to the Wikimedia Foundation for the project duration (Jan'09-Mar'10). Daniel [Phelps] collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer. I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. I have been assured in countless places that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are complete separate organizations and that there were no business relationships between the members of a past WMF Board that was 60% comprised of Wikia employees/owners. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Wikia is a way to utilize MediaWiki for profit. The United States is a capitalist society, and this should be encouraged. Also Wikia hosts many fansites and I don't hear them complaining about people playing ball. From: Brian brian.min...@colorado.edu To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 11:53:59 AM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked of they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit branch of Wikipedia with ads. There are potential conflicts of interest at nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship. On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 12:37 PM, Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com wrote: I was very surprised to read on the Wikimedia blog a post from Naoko Komura, the WMF program manager heading up the Wikipedia Usability Initiative, funded by the Stanton Foundation. Post: http://blog.wikimedia.org/2009/01/21/a-note-on-the-wikipedia-usability-initiative/ To quote Komura, On the space front, we had outgrown our current space in the South of Market area of San Francisco, and we were in search of space specifically for this project. I am happy to announce that Wikia has agreed to sublease two of their conference rooms to the Wikimedia Foundation for the project duration (Jan'09-Mar'10). Daniel [Phelps] collected a dozen bids for the space in SOMA, and Wikia matched the best offer. I submitted a comment to the blog, but over seven hours later, it is still not published, and there is a history of my questions to that blog being ignored or censored. So, I'm going to ask here, and I'll also advise the list moderators that this message is being copied to members of the press. Could we have more detail, please, on the note that Wikia matched the best offer? Were the other ten higher bidders also given the opportunity to match the best offer? Why was Wikia chosen on a second and adjusted offer basis, rather than choosing the good-faith firm that submitted the lowest offer initially? Was the first low bidder given the chance to further discount their rate? If so, what was their response? If not, why not? I have to agree with Steven Walling's comment on the blog. He said, I find the idea of the Foundation working that closely with Wikia, literally and figuratively, discomforting. We already have enough people confused about the difference between the two organizations, and to be honest, this feels like nepotism. Actually, it's not nepotism. And, there are no uniform laws regarding nepotism. It's potentially worse. Self-dealing, which is what this really smacks of, is covered in case law, judicial opinions, and some statutes. I have been assured in countless places that Wikia and the Wikimedia Foundation are complete separate organizations and that there were no business relationships between the members of a past WMF Board that was 60% comprised of Wikia employees/owners. Considering the past Wikia/Wikipedia fiasco of Ryan Essjay Jordan, I would have thought the WMF would be hyper-sensitive to working in concert yet again with their neighbor down the street. In summary: We know Wikia was recently laying off workers in the economic downturn. Presumably, Wikia now has excess office space per employee. WMF gets a grant, presumably funded by tax-deductible dollars. Expending that grant on office space is served up to an ostensibly open and fair competitive search among 12 candidate landlords. A lowest bid is received. However, a bidder who happens to have strong personnel ties to the Board of WMF and the Advisory Board of WMF, is given the opportunity to match the lowest bid, which they do, since they have empty office space doing them no good empty. Net result: Tax-advantaged dollars will be transferred to a for-profit corporation with an inside track to the decision-making body of the non-profit organization. It strikes me as fishy, to use a gentle word. -- Gregory Kohs Cell: 302.463.1354 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Mr Kohs; You are beating on a dead horse. Mr. Vibber has brought forth a list of perfectly valid reasons why this space was taken. LET ME REITERATE THE COST OF REWIRING/RECONFIGURING SPACE IN CALIFORNIA. Why should a taco stand use a dry cleaning shop when it can get another taco shop? From: Gregory Kohs thekoh...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 12:31:33 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF Wikia has been doing intensive work on the usability front and making the code available to public, so I look forward to collaborating with the Wikia technical and product teams to exchange ideas and learn from their work. There is a certain amount of logic in working with one of the biggest non-WMF MediaWiki users on this project. Bingo. -- brion It would appear that nobody is concerned about giving the landlord a leg up on ITS for-profit competitors by supplying them in particular with a ready feed of intellectual capital in the form of the friendly Stanton-funded developers? Lucky for Wikia, Inc.! I mean, assume good faith all you want, but if I were a biotech firm trying to develop a synthetic blood plasma, boy would I love to have the Red Cross' top research scientists parked in my meeting rooms every day. And PAYING me for the privilege, to boot? That's just gravy. It sounds to me that the (reasonable) criteria that ranked proximity to WMF and cognate activities as high as, or higher than, monthly rental rate rather wired this contract to Wikia, Inc. from the get-go. Kudos for putting on the dutiful show of obtaining 12 separate bids, but the outside world is seeing this for what it is -- a show of equanimity to gloss over a pre-determined outcome. As for Master Bimmler's concerns about the fear imposed by mention of the media watching, it's only natural for someone who has recently and historically been censored for asking pertinent questions, to want some sort of back up to assure him he is not living in a digital version of a Kafkaesque nightmare. If your team would stop censoring WP:BADTHOUGHTS, maybe there wouldn't be such a rush to the media? Gregory Kohs ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Mr. Levy; I respectfully believe that you are asking the wrong question. Rent is only a small part of cost. The whole cost should have been the arbiter in this matter, and I suspect it was from the posts by personnel. From: David Levy lifeisunf...@gmail.com To: foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 1:05:22 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF Erik Moeller wrote: [snip] * We've suggested to Wikia a fair market rate based on the average of the other options we obtained; * After some negotiation, Wikia accepted. Weighing other pros and cons of the space against other options, we decided to go with Wikia; To clarify, did Wikia match the lowest bid? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
Beating on a dead horse is not a valid point. From: George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 1:47:54 PM Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 1:42 PM, Anders Wegge Keller we...@wegge.dk wrote: Delirium delir...@hackish.org writes: There's a reason organizations that depend on public goodwill try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety in this sort of respect, and auditors usually suggest avoiding those sorts of entanglements. Could you please keep the amount of crackpotish kookery at a minimum at this list? I'm somewhat confused - Delirium's comment here is reasonable, accurate, and a legitimate concern, as opposed to some of the rest of the thread. -- -george william herbert george.herb...@gmail.com ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Geoffrey Plourde geo.p...@yahoo.comwrote: Its the same software for both parties, and its open source. Please just drop it. If you would please be so kind as to summarize your viewpoints in fewer messages. The past 10 to this thread have all been by you. -Chad ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
