Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 03:14:17PM -0700, Philippe Beaudette wrote: > > I can safely say that for fundraising we use a series of etherpads > that absolutely couldn't be done on a wiki. We'd be edit conflicting > all over the place. :) > Would you still say that if we (re)integrated Google^W -excuse me- Apache Wave into Mediawiki? O:-) sincerely, Kim Bruning -- [Non-pgp mail clients may show pgp-signature as attachment] gpg (www.gnupg.org) Fingerprint for key FEF9DD72 5ED6 E215 73EE AD84 E03A 01C5 94AC 7B0E FEF9 DD72 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Lennart Guldbrandsson wrote: > Some FLOSS solution simply take more time than proprietary ones, and I > know for a fact that the tech team have s much things to do that we > should a) give them a break if they investigate a matter properly (which > they seem to have done here) and decide that a proprietary solution will > have to do for now, and b) try to help them as much as we can, by solving > problems they haven't time to solve themselves. Let's therefore close this > thread and move on to more important things. Last I checked there was plenty of room to expand the tech team's budget. So I hope the decision wasn't simply a matter of not having enough time. A collaborative project making free educational content needs free tools. Google knows about the importance of collaborative tools. That's why they created Google Apps. Hopefully there's at least a plan in place for eventually migrating back off of Google. Now, agreed, let's close this thread and move on to more important things: expanding the tech budget. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 27 October 2010 10:15, John Vandenberg wrote: > "That said, our core [[wmf:Values]] includes transparency, and > recognises that our community is our biggest asset." Wikimedia is about the most transparent charity on the face of the earth. It's possible that taking it to the pathological degree you appear to advocate would already tip over into being counterproductive. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 27 October 2010 09:53, Erik Moeller wrote: > 2010/10/27 John Vandenberg : >> " ... and their collective mind is probably better than your own, so >> invite comments before you make decisions." > "... and their willingness to second-guess everything you do has no > boundaries, so exercise discretion and good judgment about the extent > of your overall engagement, lest you find yourself absorbed into a > collaborative process that more closely resembles an H.R. Giger > painting than good faith collaboration." +1 - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Hello, While I recognise that most of us use free software as much as we can, one element that haven't been brought up in this thread yet is the matter of time. Some FLOSS solution simply take more time than proprietary ones, and I know for a fact that the tech team have s much things to do that we should a) give them a break if they investigate a matter properly (which they seem to have done here) and decide that a proprietary solution will have to do for now, and b) try to help them as much as we can, by solving problems they haven't time to solve themselves. Let's therefore close this thread and move on to more important things. Best wishes, Lennart 2010/10/27 Erik Moeller > 2010/10/27 Strainu : > > Let's not get carried away here. I am always interested to seeing > > alternatives to the tools I use myself and I'm willing to dig through > > some not-so-clear notes or whatever to find information, if that > > spares me some testing time. That was the sole reason I insisted for > > the release of the information. > > As I mentioned further upthread, > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FLOSS_Exchange is intended as a public > home for documentation. I'd love to see subpages in future for > experiences of individual Wikimedia organizations with specific > software, including go-or-no-go decisions on FLOSS solutions. We'll > grow & develop this stuff as we find time. Feel free to capture some > of the information from this thread on that page or otherwise help > make it more useful. > > -- > Erik Möller > Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation > > Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > -- Lennart Guldbrandsson, chair of Wikimedia Sverige and press contact for Swedish Wikipedia // ordförande för Wikimedia Sverige och presskontakt för svenskspråkiga Wikipedia ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
2010/10/27 Strainu : > Let's not get carried away here. I am always interested to seeing > alternatives to the tools I use myself and I'm willing to dig through > some not-so-clear notes or whatever to find information, if that > spares me some testing time. That was the sole reason I insisted for > the release of the information. As I mentioned further upthread, http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FLOSS_Exchange is intended as a public home for documentation. I'd love to see subpages in future for experiences of individual Wikimedia organizations with specific software, including go-or-no-go decisions on FLOSS solutions. We'll grow & develop this stuff as we find time. Feel free to capture some of the information from this thread on that page or otherwise help make it more useful. -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > 2010/10/27 John Vandenberg : >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Strainu wrote: >>> .. >>> What does that mean exactly? Does it contain sensitive information or >>> what? It could really be of interest to other organizations to see >>> this information, even if it's not really well organised. >>> >>> P.S. I think "Orientation 101" at WMF should begin with: "anything >>> you'll do will be of interest to lots and lots of curious and >>> potentially tech-savy people, so document it properly" :P >> >> " ... and their collective mind is probably better than your own, so >> invite comments before you make decisions." > > "... and their willingness to second-guess everything you do has no > boundaries, so exercise discretion and good judgment about the extent > of your overall engagement, lest you find yourself absorbed into a > collaborative process that more closely resembles an H.R. Giger > painting than good faith collaboration." "That said, our core [[wmf:Values]] includes transparency, and recognises that our community is our biggest asset." -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
2010/10/27 Erik Moeller : > 2010/10/27 John Vandenberg : >> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Strainu wrote: >>> .. >>> What does that mean exactly? Does it contain sensitive information or >>> what? It could really be of interest to other organizations to see >>> this information, even if it's not really well organised. >>> >>> P.S. I think "Orientation 101" at WMF should begin with: "anything >>> you'll do will be of interest to lots and lots of curious and >>> potentially tech-savy people, so document it properly" :P >> >> " ... and their collective mind is probably better than your own, so >> invite comments before you make decisions." > > "... and their willingness to second-guess everything you do has no > boundaries, so exercise discretion and good judgment about the extent > of your overall engagement, lest you find yourself absorbed into a > collaborative process that more closely resembles an H.R. Giger > painting than good faith collaboration." > Let's not get carried away here. I am always interested to seeing alternatives to the tools I use myself and I'm willing to dig through some not-so-clear notes or whatever to find information, if that spares me some testing time. That was the sole reason I insisted for the release of the information. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
2010/10/27 John Vandenberg : > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Strainu wrote: >> .. >> What does that mean exactly? Does it contain sensitive information or >> what? It could really be of interest to other organizations to see >> this information, even if it's not really well organised. >> >> P.S. I think "Orientation 101" at WMF should begin with: "anything >> you'll do will be of interest to lots and lots of curious and >> potentially tech-savy people, so document it properly" :P > > " ... and their collective mind is probably better than your own, so > invite comments before you make decisions." "... and their willingness to second-guess everything you do has no boundaries, so exercise discretion and good judgment about the extent of your overall engagement, lest you find yourself absorbed into a collaborative process that more closely resembles an H.R. Giger painting than good faith collaboration." -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Strainu wrote: > .. > What does that mean exactly? Does it contain sensitive information or > what? It could really be of interest to other organizations to see > this information, even if it's not really well organised. > > P.S. I think "Orientation 101" at WMF should begin with: "anything > you'll do will be of interest to lots and lots of curious and > potentially tech-savy people, so document it properly" :P " ... and their collective mind is probably better than your own, so invite comments before you make decisions." -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
2010/10/27 Jon Davis : > Sorry, not this time. What I've got off hand isn't in a publicly usable > format. I didn't think it would be of interest to the public. Now I know > and next time I will make sure the info is public friendly, should it be > desired. > What does that mean exactly? Does it contain sensitive information or what? It could really be of interest to other organizations to see this information, even if it's not really well organised. P.S. I think "Orientation 101" at WMF should begin with: "anything you'll do will be of interest to lots and lots of curious and potentially tech-savy people, so document it properly" :P ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Sorry, not this time. What I've got off hand isn't in a publicly usable format. I didn't think it would be of interest to the public. Now I know and next time I will make sure the info is public friendly, should it be desired. -Jon On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 19:17, K. Peachey wrote: > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Jon Davis wrote: > > Howdy, > > As a quick introduction, I'm Jon Davis[1], one of the Office IT guys in > the > > SF office. Since the Google Apps migrations is one of my major projects, > > I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. Replies in line. > > ...snip... > So will the CBA and other documents that come from the research into > these solutions be released to the public? > -Peachey > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:20 AM, Jon Davis wrote: > Howdy, > As a quick introduction, I'm Jon Davis[1], one of the Office IT guys in the > SF office. Since the Google Apps migrations is one of my major projects, > I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. Replies in line. > ...snip... So will the CBA and other documents that come from the research into these solutions be released to the public? -Peachey ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:35 AM, Zugravu Gheorghe wrote: > > > On 27.10.2010 01:15, Jon Davis wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:02, Federico Leva (Nemo) >> wrote: >> >>> Erik Moeller, 26/10/2010 23:01: We've recommended Thunderbird in the past (with some folks sticking with GMail, yours truly included), but unfortunately it doesn't meet all our needs. >>> >>> Why? >>> >>> >> All things considered, I like Thunderbird, but it has two main issues for >> us. >> >> #1 - No integrated & centralized calendar. > What about the Sunbird/Lightning extension for the Thunderbird. I think > that the number of manipulation to setup them will be the same with the > amount of setup for Google Calendar. It just _does not_ work. I use Gmail only for lists, Thunderbird for every other email. But calendaring in TB is just buggy as hell. And I've been trying for years, being the Mozilla fan that I am. It never really gets better :( So google calendar it is. > And as a small comment: Thunderbird is free (as in freedom) application > and allows to do whatever manipulation with the code (and there are a > bunch of thunderbird customization already available there) - thus if > there is a need this need can solved by the community. - And Wikimedia > could make a call for improvements in the code of TB, which I believe > would have be taken into consideration by the developers. And more > people could have used the results of that - thus generating a better > and smoother application (as in the wikipedia articles). +1. I really think Wikimedia should poke the Mozilla Foundation on that ;). Delphine (prêchant pour sa paroisse) -- @notafish NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost. Intercultural musings: Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org Photos with simple eyes: notaphoto - http://photo.notafish.org ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 27.10.2010 01:39, David Gerard wrote: > On 26 October 2010 23:35, Zugravu Gheorghe wrote: > >> And as a small comment: Thunderbird is free (as in freedom) application >> and allows to do whatever manipulation with the code (and there are a >> bunch of thunderbird customization already available there) - thus if >> there is a need this need can solved by the community. - And Wikimedia >> could make a call for improvements in the code of TB, which I believe >> would have be taken into consideration by the developers. And more >> people could have used the results of that - thus generating a better >> and smoother application (as in the wikipedia articles). > > > It is indeed theoretically possible to make Thunderbird as good as > Gmail and Google Calendar. In practice, no-one's managed to do so in > six years, despite quite a lot of effort. This suggests that although > possible, it may not in fact be feasible. > > The necessary condition for a move to Thunderbird instead would be an > existence proof, i.e. a build that is as useful a tool as the Google > tools. Which, note, are not even proper applications, but browser > pages. > > > - d. I would say that Thunderbird got a lot of improvements since v1, and there is still a lot to do with the code. As an example of customization I can bring this example (http://www.synovel.com/collab/components) but I believe there are many more of such ones. Anyway since there was taken a decision, I guess that the IT people had made the best choose in order to satisfy all the folks. regards, /gheorghe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 26 October 2010 23:35, Zugravu Gheorghe wrote: > And as a small comment: Thunderbird is free (as in freedom) application > and allows to do whatever manipulation with the code (and there are a > bunch of thunderbird customization already available there) - thus if > there is a need this need can solved by the community. - And Wikimedia > could make a call for improvements in the code of TB, which I believe > would have be taken into consideration by the developers. And more > people could have used the results of that - thus generating a better > and smoother application (as in the wikipedia articles). It is indeed theoretically possible to make Thunderbird as good as Gmail and Google Calendar. In practice, no-one's managed to do so in six years, despite quite a lot of effort. This suggests that although possible, it may not in fact be feasible. The necessary condition for a move to Thunderbird instead would be an existence proof, i.e. a build that is as useful a tool as the Google tools. Which, note, are not even proper applications, but browser pages. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 27.10.2010 01:15, Jon Davis wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:02, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > >> Erik Moeller, 26/10/2010 23:01: >>> We've recommended Thunderbird in the past (with some folks sticking >>> with GMail, yours truly included), but unfortunately it doesn't meet >>> all our needs. >> >> Why? >> >> > All things considered, I like Thunderbird, but it has two main issues for > us. > > #1 - No integrated & centralized calendar. What about the Sunbird/Lightning extension for the Thunderbird. I think that the number of manipulation to setup them will be the same with the amount of setup for Google Calendar. > #2 - Search. A number of people have mentioned this to me and I think it > might be the biggest single issue with Thunderbird that I've seen. If you > have a large number of emails, search in Thunderbird works in strange ways. > It will find some emails that seem totally unrelated to your search term, > and miss the most obvious ones. I consider myself fairly adept at > manipulating search engines into finding what I need and even I have had > serious issues finding what I want. It's gone so far that at least one > staff that I know of took to sorting emails into folders by whom they were > received from, then color coding each "thread" differently - simply so the > user could find what they were looking for. I guess indeed the search in Thunderbird may be not so accurate as in Gmail (since google started as a search engine - no comments on that) - but thunderbird has a lot of extension with whom you can do whatever you want to do with it - including the ones for searching. And as a small comment: Thunderbird is free (as in freedom) application and allows to do whatever manipulation with the code (and there are a bunch of thunderbird customization already available there) - thus if there is a need this need can solved by the community. - And Wikimedia could make a call for improvements in the code of TB, which I believe would have be taken into consideration by the developers. And more people could have used the results of that - thus generating a better and smoother application (as in the wikipedia articles). > > -Jon ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 10/26/10 11:01 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: I'd love to see at least a > basic MediaWiki/Etherpad integration, it would give MW a huge > productivity boost for real-time note-taking and collaboration. + 1 ! Anthere ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:02, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > Erik Moeller, 26/10/2010 23:01: > > We've recommended Thunderbird in the past (with some folks sticking > > with GMail, yours truly included), but unfortunately it doesn't meet > > all our needs. > > Why? > > All things considered, I like Thunderbird, but it has two main issues for us. #1 - No integrated & centralized calendar. #2 - Search. A number of people have mentioned this to me and I think it might be the biggest single issue with Thunderbird that I've seen. If you have a large number of emails, search in Thunderbird works in strange ways. It will find some emails that seem totally unrelated to your search term, and miss the most obvious ones. I consider myself fairly adept at manipulating search engines into finding what I need and even I have had serious issues finding what I want. It's gone so far that at least one staff that I know of took to sorting emails into folders by whom they were received from, then color coding each "thread" differently - simply so the user could find what they were looking for. -Jon ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Jon Davis wrote (among other things): > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 17:22, MZMcBride wrote: >> I had a few questions about this migration. >> >> Has the decision to use Google Apps been finalized? If so, who made the >> final decision? >> > Yes, the decision has been made. Office IT did the original research and > made our recommendations to the CxO level. Thank you very much for the detailed reply to my questions. :-) I figured the decision had already been made, but I still thought it would be nice to discuss some aspects of it. I think some of the discussion has shed a bit of light on current practices, procedures, and principles, which is always good. MZMcBride ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Oct 26, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > Actually, I've watched some etherpad history "replays" and I've seen > simple patterns of a number of edits by an user and then a number of > edits by another user (even on another section): nothing you can't > easily do on MediaWiki. I can safely say that for fundraising we use a series of etherpads that absolutely couldn't be done on a wiki. We'd be edit conflicting all over the place. :) Philippe ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Erik Moeller, 26/10/2010 23:01: > We've recommended Thunderbird in the past (with some folks sticking > with GMail, yours truly included), but unfortunately it doesn't meet > all our needs. Why? > Google Docs is a great collaborative drafting tool (as is Etherpad, > which is open), but I don't want us to become dependent on it -- for > any document that needs to be worked on over sustained periods of > time, it ends up being moved out of GD. I'd love to see at least a > basic MediaWiki/Etherpad integration, it would give MW a huge > productivity boost for real-time note-taking and collaboration. There are lots of things on our Etherpad which should be eventually copied on some wiki to be organized and easily findable. (Should we suppose that Etherpad texts are CC-By-SA?) Actually, I've watched some etherpad history "replays" and I've seen simple patterns of a number of edits by an user and then a number of edits by another user (even on another section): nothing you can't easily do on MediaWiki. Nemo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:40 PM, Jon Davis wrote: > The MX records point to McHenry (WMF). At this point mail is sorted and > sent to the correct locations (Be it OTRS, Mailing Lists or Google Apps). > > -Jon Ah, that's not so bad, then. Anything that has to be really really confidential (shouldn't be read from home) just can not get forwarded through gmail, and in the event of major downtime you don't even have to wait for the MX records to time out. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
The MX records point to McHenry (WMF). At this point mail is sorted and sent to the correct locations (Be it OTRS, Mailing Lists or Google Apps). -Jon On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 14:31, Anthony wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Jon Davis wrote: > > This migration will not effect anything but Staff email. OTRS, wiki's, > > mailing lists and anything else I've forgotten to mention will continue > to > > work as they did previously. > > Are the MX records going to point to WMF, or to Google? For which domains? > > > As for paying, Yes we are. As for the SLA, the standard [1] > > 43 minutes of downtime allowed every month... 7.2 hours of downtime > gets you a 10% refund. If you're down for 1 1/2 days, you get 25% of > your monthly fees back. Down more than that, and you get half your > money back. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Jon Davis wrote: > This migration will not effect anything but Staff email. OTRS, wiki's, > mailing lists and anything else I've forgotten to mention will continue to > work as they did previously. Are the MX records going to point to WMF, or to Google? For which domains? > As for paying, Yes we are. As for the SLA, the standard [1] 43 minutes of downtime allowed every month... 7.2 hours of downtime gets you a 10% refund. If you're down for 1 1/2 days, you get 25% of your monthly fees back. Down more than that, and you get half your money back. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
This migration will not effect anything but Staff email. OTRS, wiki's, mailing lists and anything else I've forgotten to mention will continue to work as they did previously. As for paying, Yes we are. As for the SLA, the standard [1] -Jon [1] http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/terms/sla.html On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 14:21, Anthony wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, David Gerard wrote: > > Gmail is just ridiculously better than any other email client I've > > ever used ever, having previously progressed through Pine, elm, mutt > > and Thunderbird. Perhaps it's just me, but I'd guess otherwise from > > the number of Wikimedians with gmail,com addresses. > > Well, yeah, that's why I forward my email to gmail. But I can't > imagine using them for my domain's MX record. I'd want more control > and flexibility than that. > > As a related anecdote, the IRS recently banned gmail addresses when > signing up for a preparer identification number, because Google was > sending their registration password emails to the bit bucket (no, not > to the spam folder, the emails were just disappearing, even if you > explicitly added a filter not to send them to spam). See > > http://www.google.co.nz/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=4e489afd6114c49a&hl=en > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > > We're reluctantly switching to GMail as the standard > > email solution, but we'd love to switch to an open solution in future. > > Is this going to affect the mailing lists? OTRS? > > Is the WMF paying for this? What are the service guarantees? I'd > imagine no on the former. Being able to add the Wikimedia Foundation > to the list of people who have "gone Google" will be a huge coup. > > ___ > foundation-l mailing list > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l > ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Jon Davis wrote: > When we wanted to pursue > the Google Apps project further, we contacted a sales rep. In the end, we > went through the process like any other group would, and we pay the standard > price. Wow. The standard price? Is the person who negotiated that deal the same one that just recently got fired? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > 2010/10/26 David Gerard : >> .. >> Google Docs is ridiculously usable for real-time collaboration. More >> so than anything I've ever used. >> >> I suggest it's quite plausible that the Google versions are so far >> ahead of self-hosted open source equivalents that we'd be crippling >> ourselves. > > That's the gist of it... Ya'll need to be booked into a RMS refresher session on 'convenience'. ;-) I've been on mine recently. http://nicta.com.au/nicta_events/events/event_repository/upcoming_events/big_picture_seminar_brisbane_richard_stallman -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 4:43 PM, David Gerard wrote: > Gmail is just ridiculously better than any other email client I've > ever used ever, having previously progressed through Pine, elm, mutt > and Thunderbird. Perhaps it's just me, but I'd guess otherwise from > the number of Wikimedians with gmail,com addresses. Well, yeah, that's why I forward my email to gmail. But I can't imagine using them for my domain's MX record. I'd want more control and flexibility than that. As a related anecdote, the IRS recently banned gmail addresses when signing up for a preparer identification number, because Google was sending their registration password emails to the bit bucket (no, not to the spam folder, the emails were just disappearing, even if you explicitly added a filter not to send them to spam). See http://www.google.co.nz/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=4e489afd6114c49a&hl=en On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > We're reluctantly switching to GMail as the standard > email solution, but we'd love to switch to an open solution in future. Is this going to affect the mailing lists? OTRS? Is the WMF paying for this? What are the service guarantees? I'd imagine no on the former. Being able to add the Wikimedia Foundation to the list of people who have "gone Google" will be a huge coup. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Howdy, As a quick introduction, I'm Jon Davis[1], one of the Office IT guys in the SF office. Since the Google Apps migrations is one of my major projects, I'll try to answer your questions the best I can. Replies in line. On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 17:22, MZMcBride wrote: > Hi. > > This morning the Wikimedia Foundation had a meeting about migrating to > Google Apps. Google Apps is a Web-based closed source office suite that > includes Gmail and a few other services.[1] > > You are correct. I gave a presentation yesterday morning to the staff. I'm impressed that you're already on top of this. > I had a few questions about this migration. > > Has the decision to use Google Apps been finalized? If so, who made the > final decision? > > Yes, the decision has been made. Office IT did the original research and made our recommendations to the CxO level. > What are the benefits of using Google Apps for the Wikimedia Foundation? > > I presume you mean benefits over our existing setup. In which case some of the answers are: integrated calendaring, shared contacts, web based access and general integration. > Is there a concern about using closed source software when there are > comparable open source alternatives? > > The problem with this question is the word "comparable". Yes, there is a multiplicity of software that does _similar_ but just because it is similar means one will work in place of the other (Gimp vs Photoshop for example). Office IT spent many hours evaluating a number of email/calendaring/contact solutions, most of which were Open Source (but we had some other options in there like Google Apps). Based on our specific needs (which is more than just the few high level points above), Google Apps was the only reasonable choice. Something else to consider is what "open source" means. Many of the "open source" options aren't totally open source. In order to get the full feature set or have more than a handful of users, you have to pay them for a license. So while many of these products advertise themselves as "open source", a large portion of the features (possibly everything that would make us want to switch) is not actually open source code. One of the important things to remember is that even though Google is closed source, they use open standards. We will migrate our email in via IMAP, our calendars via iCalendar, and (should we wish to to do so) we can leave the exact same way. Nothing about this migration will be locking us in. In fact, we already have plans to revisit the open source options (after a reasonable amount of time has passed) to see how they have evolved. If in a few years time an OSS solution will meet our needs - we'll switch back over. Is there a concern that this will bring Google and the Wikimedia Foundation > closer together? After a $2 million grant, I imagine some people looking in > from the outside have their concerns about a takeover. > > Google Inc had nothing to do with this decision. When we wanted to pursue the Google Apps project further, we contacted a sales rep. In the end, we went through the process like any other group would, and we pay the standard price. We were not afforded any luxuries nor were any corners cut due to or in spite of our relationship with Google. Are there concerns about Google's privacy practices? It doesn't seem > particularly wise to hand them all of your e-mail, especially if they > possibly have a business interest. > > The EULA for Google Apps [3] is slightly different than the normal one. We continue to own our data and Google doesn't. [4] We have had the EULA reviewed by legal counsel, as well as our in-house tech staff, and received the opinion that the privacy provisions were strong enough to meet our needs. > Any clarifications on this would be great! > > MZMcBride > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Apps > > > I hope this helps to answer some of the questions about Google Apps specifically. I'm sorry for the slow reply, but you caught me at the end of the day yesterday. Thank you- -Jon [1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_contractors [2] http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/customers.html [3] http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/terms/user_terms.html [4] http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=60762 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
2010/10/26 David Gerard : > Gmail is just ridiculously better than any other email client I've > ever used ever, having previously progressed through Pine, elm, mutt > and Thunderbird. Perhaps it's just me, but I'd guess otherwise from > the number of Wikimedians with gmail,com addresses. > free > Google Docs is ridiculously usable for real-time collaboration. More > so than anything I've ever used. > > I suggest it's quite plausible that the Google versions are so far > ahead of self-hosted open source equivalents that we'd be crippling > ourselves. That's the gist of it. Our general policy is to be as open on internal tools as reasonably possible, which includes giving people an Ubuntu laptop even if they've only ever seen that name on a restaurant in Napa. [1] It also includes pretty substantial investment in some open tools where we can make a significant difference through our adoption and support, e.g. CiviCRM. We've still got lots of Macs, but are gradually moving away from them where we can; we've standardized on OpenOffice.org (soon LibreOffice?) for formatting documents, and of course we use wikis extensively for sustained collaboration. I've started a page a while ago to publicly document the internal tools use of WMF and other players in the Wikimedia movement: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/FLOSS-Exchange We've recommended Thunderbird in the past (with some folks sticking with GMail, yours truly included), but unfortunately it doesn't meet all our needs. We're reluctantly switching to GMail as the standard email solution, but we'd love to switch to an open solution in future. Jon Davis can elaborate a bit on the assessment process. Naturally folks will be able to continue to use open source clients. Google Docs is a great collaborative drafting tool (as is Etherpad, which is open), but I don't want us to become dependent on it -- for any document that needs to be worked on over sustained periods of time, it ends up being moved out of GD. I'd love to see at least a basic MediaWiki/Etherpad integration, it would give MW a huge productivity boost for real-time note-taking and collaboration. [1] http://www.yelp.com/biz/ubuntu-restaurant-and-yoga-studio-napa -- Erik Möller Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 26 October 2010 21:30, MZMcBride wrote: > Perhaps Google Apps has some terrific benefits that Wikimedia sorely needs; > that was the reason I asked what benefits Wikimedia saw in migrating their > systems in my original post. However, from where I'm standing, the cost > versus benefits simply don't add up, particularly when you consider what > impact this might have from a public relations/perceptions standpoint. Gmail is just ridiculously better than any other email client I've ever used ever, having previously progressed through Pine, elm, mutt and Thunderbird. Perhaps it's just me, but I'd guess otherwise from the number of Wikimedians with gmail,com addresses. free Google Docs is ridiculously usable for real-time collaboration. More so than anything I've ever used. I suggest it's quite plausible that the Google versions are so far ahead of self-hosted open source equivalents that we'd be crippling ourselves. > I think the broader issue of Wikimedia using non-open source software is one > that needs clarification, as it still seems very murky to me. It is, of course, quite possible that we should in fact use less good open source equivalents, even if we would be near-crippling ourselves. We're not the FSF and our technology policy isn't set by Richard Stallman. That said, RMS does have the important plus point of having been pretty much right about most things, so we would be very foolish indeed to disregard what I will term the "rabid free/open source software" position out of hand. Wikimedia is a creature of the broader free culture movement. Erik Moeller, a Wikimedian since the wikipedia.com days and currently WMF deputy CEO, *wrote* the Free Content Definition. We're aggressively neutral about most things, but our essential values stand foursquare for the ideals of that movement: more freedom, more information, refusal of strings attached. I suppose I'm saying that it's a tricky one. I have a pretty much entirely free software desktop (except Opera for browser checking and Lotus Notes for work [1]) but I still live in my Gmail, and it'd utterly bugger my ability to keep up with my email to give it up, - d. [1] http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Lotus_Notes ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Nathan wrote: > I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't possibly care less what > office software the Foundation uses. I suppose the paranoid conspiracy > theory of a Google takeover fueled by illicit access to WMF data > doesn't strike me as remotely realistic. There was a story about a month ago in which a Google employee was fired for snooping on e-mail of minors he had befriended.[1] I think the part that struck me most about the story was that the employee apparently wasn't very high up in the company, but still had the ability to read people's e-mails, their Gtalk conversations, and even get their phone numbers, according to the articles published about the incident. Perhaps it's very unlikely that Google would snoop on Wikimedia's e-mail, I can't say one way or another. I can say that I was disturbed by the news story and I can say that Google definitely has a business interest here (anyone remember Knol?). Perhaps Google Apps has some terrific benefits that Wikimedia sorely needs; that was the reason I asked what benefits Wikimedia saw in migrating their systems in my original post. However, from where I'm standing, the cost versus benefits simply don't add up, particularly when you consider what impact this might have from a public relations/perceptions standpoint. I think the broader issue of Wikimedia using non-open source software is one that needs clarification, as it still seems very murky to me. MZMcBride [1] http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/google-enginee r-fired-for-snooping-on-emails-2080464.html ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 26 October 2010 11:00, David Gerard wrote: > On 26 October 2010 14:23, Nathan wrote: > > > I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't possibly care less what > > office software the Foundation uses. I suppose the paranoid conspiracy > > theory of a Google takeover fueled by illicit access to WMF data > > doesn't strike me as remotely realistic. > > > Google's greatest weakness is in the privacy sector. Anyone remember when they turned on Buzz and suddenly there was all kinds of personal information made available because they linked people's multiple accounts? Well, the same thing holds for all their other applications. One might think that people operating within the WMF, and in the higher levels of the chapters, are likely to have publicly linked their "real life" names with their wiki-identities, but that is not always the case; there are definitely chapter-level people who have not done so. Maintaining that separation is very difficult and needs to be checked on a regular basis, since Google changes their algorithm periodically. Using Google Apps may have the unintentional side effect of deterring valuable contributors from participating in certain activities. Certainly, oversighters on English Wikipedia have had to deal with the fallout of personal information being unintentionally revealed by editors who were unaware of this situation with Google. When we are providing information on how to address perceived privacy violations, we include a recommendation to those who use Gmail to review all of their Google-related accounts and ensure that they remove all links. Risker/Anne ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 26 October 2010 14:23, Nathan wrote: > I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't possibly care less what > office software the Foundation uses. I suppose the paranoid conspiracy > theory of a Google takeover fueled by illicit access to WMF data > doesn't strike me as remotely realistic. I wonder how many WMF and chapter staff and Foundation and chapter volunteers use Gmail ... hope we've all got really good passwords! - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 26 October 2010 13:23, Nathan wrote: > I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't possibly care less what > office software the Foundation uses. I suppose the paranoid conspiracy > theory of a Google takeover fueled by illicit access to WMF data > doesn't strike me as remotely realistic. > > Nathan > > +1 It is very important that all software used in the direct delivery of the Wikimedia projects is F/LOSS but I don't see why that requires the WMF (or Chapters) to not be allowed to used proprietary software for the other elements necessary to run the organisational side of things (as mentioned: email, calendars, documents). The WMF (and chapters) use open source systems for these things when possible (e.g. Linux OS, CiviCRM for fundraising, OpenOffice for wordprocessing). But this shouldn't mean that proprietary systems are not allowed when they get these organisational functions done well/better. -Liam wittylama.com/blog Peace, love & metadata ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
I don't know about anyone else, but I couldn't possibly care less what office software the Foundation uses. I suppose the paranoid conspiracy theory of a Google takeover fueled by illicit access to WMF data doesn't strike me as remotely realistic. Nathan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:22 PM, MZMcBride wrote: >> This morning the Wikimedia Foundation had a meeting about migrating to >> Google Apps. > > Using Google Apps for what? My understanding is that it would be used for e-mail, calendars, and Google Docs primarily. When I asked "What are the benefits of using Google Apps for the Wikimedia Foundation?" in my original post, that's roughly what I was trying to get at. John Vandenberg wrote: > Where was this announced / discussed ? > Or, how the heck did you find out?? ;-) I don't think this was announced or discussed anywhere publicly. I figured foundation-l would provide a reasonable place to discuss the subject. Robert S. Horning wrote: > On 10/25/2010 06:22 PM, MZMcBride wrote: >> Is there a concern about using closed source software when there are >> comparable open source alternatives? > > Give a good example if you are going to suggest that there are > alternatives. Open Office, while some excellent "open source" tools, > aren't comparable. What else are you suggesting? > > I'm merely ignorant about this, so please tell me if there really is > something else "out there" that does pretty much what Google Apps do. Obviously for something like e-mail, there are plenty of hosting and webmail client alternatives. I'm not sure I'd call Open Office an alternative here. It's certainly an alternative for non-web-based document editing, and I'm fairly sure most Wikimedia employees already use it instead of the Microsoft Office suite. Which alternatives are available largely depends on what Wikimedia intends to use Google Apps for (which was one of the questions in my original post). My biggest concern would be e-mail, personally, though the larger principle of switching the organization to a closed source system is one that I think should be examined. > Google isn't going to be "taking over" the WMF nor is any other group > going to do that. The community wouldn't put up with it. Hmm, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Google has a lot of money and they're not stupid. I'm sure more than a few contributors would stick around, especially if Google invested some serious resources. MZMcBride ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On 10/25/2010 06:22 PM, MZMcBride wrote: > Has the decision to use Google Apps been finalized? If so, who made the > final decision? > > What are the benefits of using Google Apps for the Wikimedia Foundation? > One thing I will say to the benefit of Google Apps is that they allow long-distance collaborative content development that seems to work better than a wiki for some things. Particularly the spreadsheets and the document processor is quite useful and something that would be nice if we could adapt that to at least some of the content development on Wikimedia projects. I really don't know of a "free" alternative to these applications, even though the MediaWiki software at least in theory does display the same information as a final product. It is the methods of putting the content in that I think Google does better, and in particular how that input can be done collaboratively. I don't think it would be too difficult to build a peer-to-peer application instead of something that goes through a server to accomplish nearly the same thing, but it would take some significant software development effort to get that to happen. Google Apps is available and written, therefore it is hard to ignore. > Is there a concern about using closed source software when there are > comparable open source alternatives? > > Give a good example if you are going to suggest that there are alternatives. Open Office, while some excellent "open source" tools, aren't comparable. What else are you suggesting? I'm merely ignorant about this, so please tell me if there really is something else "out there" that does pretty much what Google Apps do. > Is there a concern that this will bring Google and the Wikimedia Foundation > closer together? After a $2 million grant, I imagine some people looking in > from the outside have their concerns about a takeover. > > MZMcBride > > In terms of a "takeover", I think if there was some significant concern about the management of the WMF, that there would be a fork or something else happen within the community where any "takeover" attempts would be dismissed. The "right to fork" is something integral to all open source projects, and tends to be a good check on anybody that gets too big of a head. While I'm not 100% happy with everything the WMF does, they are better than a typical non-profit organization and do a fairly decent job of generally managing the projects. I've been asked to get involved with a fork of Wikimedia projects in the past, and my response has been to wait it out over those issues that were of concern. At least to wait until there was a very serious concern where forking several projects would have widespread appeal and that the bulk of the community would come over to the fork. Setting up a complimentatry organizaiton to the WMF would not be easy to accomplish and IMHO would have to include the support of several chapters if that were to happen too. Google isn't going to be "taking over" the WMF nor is any other group going to do that. The community wouldn't put up with it. -- Robert Horning blu Electronic Cigarettes Looks, feels, and tastes real. Enjoy the freedom to smoke anywhere. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL3241/4cc636086efa33a5b99st03duc ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 11:22 AM, MZMcBride wrote: > Hi. > > This morning the Wikimedia Foundation had a meeting about migrating to > Google Apps. Where was this announced / discussed ? Or, how the heck did you find out?? ;-) -- John Vandenberg ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 8:22 PM, MZMcBride wrote: > Hi. > > This morning the Wikimedia Foundation had a meeting about migrating to > Google Apps. Using Google Apps for what? ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Wikimedia Foundation switching to Google Apps?
Hi. This morning the Wikimedia Foundation had a meeting about migrating to Google Apps. Google Apps is a Web-based closed source office suite that includes Gmail and a few other services.[1] I had a few questions about this migration. Has the decision to use Google Apps been finalized? If so, who made the final decision? What are the benefits of using Google Apps for the Wikimedia Foundation? Is there a concern about using closed source software when there are comparable open source alternatives? Is there a concern that this will bring Google and the Wikimedia Foundation closer together? After a $2 million grant, I imagine some people looking in from the outside have their concerns about a takeover. Are there concerns about Google's privacy practices? It doesn't seem particularly wise to hand them all of your e-mail, especially if they possibly have a business interest. Any clarifications on this would be great! MZMcBride [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Apps ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
