Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
On 01/05/2015 03:44 PM, Magdalen Berns wrote: To elaborate on the point about fundraisers a little further: Also though I have to wonder whether future fundraisers could maybe be handled in the same way as the groupon fundraiser was managed. http://www.gnome.org/groupon/ since that did not seem to be too controversial at the time. If that sort of thing would mean more work but ultimately lower fees, then perhaps GNOME could also take an administrative cut off the top for managing the donations on behalf of the relevant project developers? It might also be worthwhile for us to set up a dedicated wiki page guide explaining what alternative fundraising platforms GNOME want projects to use and compile a list of links on there and have some recommendations for standard practices. It might also be handy for those wishing to fund their projects if we compiled and outline the logical steps a project manager and/or project developer might take to get set up and seek permission and support with launch etc. If crowdfunding was a service that the GNOME foundation offered it's members, I would be in favor of that. However, as it stands today, I believe this would cause undue burden on the board. Additionally, I'm against a policy on external links based on their JavaScript, full stop. (However, I'm willing to entertain a policy based on other guidelines). -- Christian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
Hi all, Whist this is a bit entertaining, I think we can all see where it is headed... On balance, there really is only one practical reason to bring up the past and that is for the sake of being able to reliably anticipate the future. So, I have to urge people again to try to move the discussion away from the particular rights and wrongs of publishing the Builder or other IndiGoGo(hst)s past, for that matter. It really does seem most appropriate to take steps to try to discuss the issue of non-free links/endorsements on neutral territory. That way, nobody has to be made to feel like points of argument about this are being directed at them personally, as individuals. Surely everyone here must be able to recognise that when people feel like they are under attack, that they tend to get into a reactionary mindset and that this does not lead anywhere progressive. Let's move on. Now, to the subject of whether GNOME should or should not link to non-free websites (as is in line with the subject line of this thread :-)) I think that most people would agree that in principle it is probably right that we should take steps to avoid this in future. I have a few suggestions about that: - In personal member blog posts on the blog subdomains, I think it should be discouraged somewhere but generally up to whoever is writing the post to decide given that something like that is practically impossible to regulate, anyway and there is a probably a fine line there between refusing to endorse something and censorship when we get into the realm of what individuals should or should not be saying or doing. - On the wiki: Again, quite difficult to regulate but it when I think when we write on the wiki we do represent GNOME (rather than ourselves as individuals) a bit more than with blogs as far as how the public interpret the content might be concerned,. With that said I can imagine that it could be necessary to post links to nonfree sites sometimes (e.g. some information on a site regarding issue x, y or z. In that case maybe we could think about having some sort of a trigger warning ):D. Perhaps that seems silly but it might be a nice/amusing way to show we don't approve without restricting what we can link to in cases where this is too impractical - For fundraisers (and probably endorsements, in general) it probably should be policy not to do it after Builder but again, where this proves too impractical perhaps the trigger warning idea might be a neat compromise. To elaborate on the point about fundraisers a little further: Also though I have to wonder whether future fundraisers could maybe be handled in the same way as the groupon fundraiser was managed. http://www.gnome.org/groupon/ since that did not seem to be too controversial at the time. If that sort of thing would mean more work but ultimately lower fees, then perhaps GNOME could also take an administrative cut off the top for managing the donations on behalf of the relevant project developers? It might also be worthwhile for us to set up a dedicated wiki page guide explaining what alternative fundraising platforms GNOME want projects to use and compile a list of links on there and have some recommendations for standard practices. It might also be handy for those wishing to fund their projects if we compiled and outline the logical steps a project manager and/or project developer might take to get set up and seek permission and support with launch etc. Magdalen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
Hi, On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Christian Hergert christ...@hergert.me wrote: On 01/05/2015 03:44 PM, Magdalen Berns wrote: To elaborate on the point about fundraisers a little further: Also though I have to wonder whether future fundraisers could maybe be handled in the same way as the groupon fundraiser was managed. http://www.gnome.org/groupon/ since that did not seem to be too controversial at the time. If that sort of thing would mean more work but ultimately lower fees, then perhaps GNOME could also take an administrative cut off the top for managing the donations on behalf of the relevant project developers? It might also be worthwhile for us to set up a dedicated wiki page guide explaining what alternative fundraising platforms GNOME want projects to use and compile a list of links on there and have some recommendations for standard practices. It might also be handy for those wishing to fund their projects if we compiled and outline the logical steps a project manager and/or project developer might take to get set up and seek permission and support with launch etc. If crowdfunding was a service that the GNOME foundation offered it's members, I would be in favor of that. However, as it stands today, I believe this would cause undue burden on the board. Additionally, I'm against a policy on external links based on their JavaScript, full stop. (However, I'm willing to entertain a policy based on other guidelines). Speaking for myself, I use Blogger and link to non-free websites on wiki pages (e.g. in the prior art section on the gnome-sound-recorder wiki page). I think people should make their own decisions about ethics as long as they are not causing other people harm, and I also don't think establishing policies regulating things like this is a good use of resources. imo. Meg -- Christian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
If crowdfunding was a service that the GNOME foundation offered it's members, I would be in favor of that. However, as it stands today, I believe this would cause undue burden on the board. It's hard to say without thrashing it out but I definitely think it's worth thrashing it out, otherwise it definitely wouldn't be possible. :D With that said, I would have thought the treasurer and webmaster or two would be better placed to handle the administration of something like this rather than the board of directors themselves. There is no reason I can think of why managing something like that could not be delegated appropriately as lots of other initiatives seem to get done at GNOME. With that said, I don't personally know the details of the method GNOME used for groupon to comment on how that sort of thing might work as a repeated effort for more modest wee module fundraisers. But, let's say the repeated the code from that fundraiser to allow them accept donations for a hypothetical new project then all it really comes down to is the extra workload on the treasurer and figuring out what the law says about raising money to pay volunteers, which I am guessing has been done with once or twice already, since GNOME is a fairly large charity and although GNOME is a charity, I do not see a compelling reason why they could not reasonably take an appropriate $ dollar percentage % off the total raised. Like a sort of admin fee that could be set aside to cover the reasonable cost for the time of those members involved who did the work to do stuff like set up a fundraising page and the treasurer having to take on some additional work in managing GNOME's annual accounts. Many of GNOME's contributors members are already volunteers, perhaps they would welcome some extra cash, for the effort. In the longer run it could be one way to get around the evil javascript issue but also the community would probably benefit from personally engaging with fundraising as a consistent thing. I imagine something like this would yield infrastructure and help GNOME develop it's fundraising strategies and generate income from a more diverse range of sources, in the long run. Additionally, I'm against a policy on external links based on their JavaScript, full stop. (However, I'm willing to entertain a policy based on other guidelines). Why are you against the notion of a javascript policy? What kind of other guidelines would you entertain? Magdalen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
Hi Magdalen, On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Magdalen Berns m.be...@thismagpie.com wrote: I think you have agreed with me on the wiki and the blog but seem to not realise that, for some strange reason. To clarify, I agreed that individuals should be able to make their own choices for how they blog and pointed out that the wiki and would be too difficult to regulate than is practical. Really, the point here is that the core policy chat is referring to what GNOME, the organisation should endorse. The reason I would have to disagree with you that a policy on something like that is not a waste of time and resources is because some of the community feel like that GNOME as a brand represents a certain set of principles and that it may send out the wrong message to the general public for GNOME to be seen to be advocating or endorsing the use of non-free software by casually treating non-free links like they're the same as free ones. I understood you to be talking about labeling links as non-free even on wiki pages and Planet GNOME. Were you only talking about links to fundraising pages? Meg ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
I told myself I would not get involved in this subject, but I have to say a couple of things. First, there's a lot of talk (here and the earlier thread) that loosely equivocates fundraising with crowdfunding. They're not the same. To tell a project that it should simply accept donations rather than use a crowdfunding platform is a false equivocation. Crowdfunding's mixture of elements -- the presentation, the pitch of the vision, the element of a deadline, staggered donation levels and gifts -- is not replicated by publishing a Donate! banner. Second, linking to a web site is not an automatic endorsement of its script licensing or the practices of its operator. Lacking semantic operators for hyperlinks, context is everything. Personally, I trust my readers to understand this. -- Jim On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 6:50 PM, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Magdalen, On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Magdalen Berns m.be...@thismagpie.com wrote: I think you have agreed with me on the wiki and the blog but seem to not realise that, for some strange reason. To clarify, I agreed that individuals should be able to make their own choices for how they blog and pointed out that the wiki and would be too difficult to regulate than is practical. Really, the point here is that the core policy chat is referring to what GNOME, the organisation should endorse. The reason I would have to disagree with you that a policy on something like that is not a waste of time and resources is because some of the community feel like that GNOME as a brand represents a certain set of principles and that it may send out the wrong message to the general public for GNOME to be seen to be advocating or endorsing the use of non-free software by casually treating non-free links like they're the same as free ones. I understood you to be talking about labeling links as non-free even on wiki pages and Planet GNOME. Were you only talking about links to fundraising pages? Meg ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Christian Hergert christ...@hergert.me wrote: The problem is that it takes *months* to prepare a proper crowdfunding campaign. So if you didn't suggest crowdsupply to me back at the hackfest, it was simply *too late* to be reasonably actionable (despite that I might agree it would be a good idea). Does crowdsupply accept software projects at all? Without reading all the terms and conditions, it looks to me like they just do hardware and manufactured goods. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Linking to non-free websites from gnome.org
On 01/03/2015 07:48 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: That's because the several crowdfunding sites I had investigated all had the same unethical practice of requiring donors to run nonfree software. There was not one that we could use without contradicting the principles of the free software movement. This is a serious problem and I've been looking for a solution for more than a year. Didn't I tell you this at the time? Since then, I have come across one site, crowdsupply.com, which offers a way to send money bypassing the nonfree JS code. That makes it better than the others. I urge people to choose crowdsupply.com for future campaigns. The problem is that it takes *months* to prepare a proper crowdfunding campaign. So if you didn't suggest crowdsupply to me back at the hackfest, it was simply *too late* to be reasonably actionable (despite that I might agree it would be a good idea). I hadn't realized others had used indiegogo to crowdfund for your travel though. Were there lessons learned from that we should know about? https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/richard-stallman-s-air-ticket-to-speak-in-south-africa/x/8947753 -- Christian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
