Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 07/01/17 19:30, Lars wrote: On Fri, January 6, 2017 12:51 pm, Sven Barth wrote: Ehm... Delphi's compiler is written in C++, not Delphi as far as we know. Also their NEXTGEN compiler is utilizing LLVM, something we won't purely do. Yes the exe signature was c/c++ That does not forgive copyright just because different language is used.. Any fpc code can be easily converted to C code In fact that hides copyright violations a bit as it masks them by converting to a new language. I don't think that copyright would survive translation. A patent of the algorithms would, but that is opening a whole new can of worms. Whoever owns Delphi these days might be able to claim a "look and feel" violation, but ultimately Delphi used ideas which had previously been demonstrated viable by MS VB, even if Borland's implementation was vastly improved. So I don't think we need to give anonymous trolls a platform. -- Mark Morgan Lloyd markMLl .AT. telemetry.co .DOT. uk [Opinions above are the author's, not those of his employers or colleagues] ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Fri, January 6, 2017 12:51 pm, Sven Barth wrote: > Ehm... Delphi's compiler is written in C++, not Delphi as far as we > know. Also their NEXTGEN compiler is utilizing LLVM, something we won't > purely do. Yes the exe signature was c/c++ That does not forgive copyright just because different language is used.. Any fpc code can be easily converted to C code In fact that hides copyright violations a bit as it masks them by converting to a new language. But this is just insinuating.. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Michael Schnell wrote: > Can you use the toolkit plus fpc to compile and run Delphi Firemonkey > application source code (after a decent amount of tweaking) ? No. You should continue a Firemonkey discussion in fpc-other list, as Tomas Hajny suggested. Juha ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 06.01.2017 17:21, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: you can build hardware accelerated GUI applications using that toolkit. Not Really the point. Can you use the toolkit plus fpc to compile and run Delphi Firemonkey application source code (after a decent amount of tweaking) ? -Michael ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 06.01.2017 16:44, Lars wrote: > On Tue, January 3, 2017 6:10 pm, Snorkl e wrote: >> They might with a change of ownership, who knows these days, but the >> fact they did use it in the past would not look good for any litigation >> from some bottom feeder. > > The fact that they use FPC, means they likely reverse engineer FPC and > apply their own hacks to their own compiler for multiple targets based on > FPC engineering.. > > i.e. they don't even need to reverse engineer FPC, they just have to dip > their eyes into the source code... And woops, there comes the problem: > Delphi is likely stealing from FPC too as their eyes have seen what cannot > be undone... they've peered into the FPC source code guaranteed.. I bet. > > i.e. when they decide to target multiple platforms they have a nice demo > to look into which already does it: fpc. > > Now I am not trying to insinuate anything here, but "it goes both ways" > > As Michael Van C. once said, why isn't Borland also practicing clean room? > who is to say, since their development model is closed source, that their > compiler has no violations in it, that rip from FPC? With FPC the code is > open so you can tell. With delphi, it's closed development, so you cannot > peer into their compiler sources and check to see if there are violations. Ehm... Delphi's compiler is written in C++, not Delphi as far as we know. Also their NEXTGEN compiler is utilizing LLVM, something we won't purely do. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Hello, Could be potential further discussion about FireMonkey moved to fpc-other, please? I don't think that it's still related to FPC... Thank you Tomas (one of FPC mailing list moderators) Original Message Subject: Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project From:"Lars" Date:Fri, January 6, 2017 17:27 To: "FPC-Pascal users discussions" On Fri, January 6, 2017 9:21 am, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: > On 2017-01-06 16:14, Lars wrote: > >> Okay but what's the point of it? to be able to compile firemonkey like >> applications without buying delphi? > > Yes, you can build hardware accelerated GUI applications using that > toolkit. > Okay. hold on a second. GUI applications, need hardware acceleration... since when? I guess this could be useful for animation based apps that need to be zippy fast...? AFAICT, gui applications, ever since windows 3.1 days on 33mhz computers, were fast enough and needed no acceleration for basic things like buttons, text, etc. So does the hardware acceleration come in handy when you need to animate something and make the gui app almost like a video? Scientific demos of particles bouncing around? What are the use cases for this? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Fri, January 6, 2017 9:21 am, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: > On 2017-01-06 16:14, Lars wrote: > >> Okay but what's the point of it? to be able to compile firemonkey like >> applications without buying delphi? > > Yes, you can build hardware accelerated GUI applications using that > toolkit. > Okay. hold on a second. GUI applications, need hardware acceleration... since when? I guess this could be useful for animation based apps that need to be zippy fast...? AFAICT, gui applications, ever since windows 3.1 days on 33mhz computers, were fast enough and needed no acceleration for basic things like buttons, text, etc. So does the hardware acceleration come in handy when you need to animate something and make the gui app almost like a video? Scientific demos of particles bouncing around? What are the use cases for this? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 2017-01-06 16:14, Lars wrote: > Okay but what's the point of it? to be able to compile firemonkey like > applications without buying delphi? Yes, you can build hardware accelerated GUI applications using that toolkit. Regards, Graeme -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Fri, January 6, 2017 8:59 am, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: > On 2017-01-06 15:49, Lars wrote: > >> What does this product allow? >> > > CodeTyphon distributes the source code of Embarcadero's FireMonkey > predecessor (previously known as VG-Scene or something), but rebranded as > "Orca". Neither FireMonkey or its predecessor is/was open source. > LOL.. Okay but what's the point of it? to be able to compile firemonkey like applications without buying delphi? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Tue, January 3, 2017 6:10 pm, Snorkl e wrote: > They might with a change of ownership, who knows these days, but the > fact they did use it in the past would not look good for any litigation > from some bottom feeder. The fact that they use FPC, means they likely reverse engineer FPC and apply their own hacks to their own compiler for multiple targets based on FPC engineering.. i.e. they don't even need to reverse engineer FPC, they just have to dip their eyes into the source code... And woops, there comes the problem: Delphi is likely stealing from FPC too as their eyes have seen what cannot be undone... they've peered into the FPC source code guaranteed.. I bet. i.e. when they decide to target multiple platforms they have a nice demo to look into which already does it: fpc. Now I am not trying to insinuate anything here, but "it goes both ways" As Michael Van C. once said, why isn't Borland also practicing clean room? who is to say, since their development model is closed source, that their compiler has no violations in it, that rip from FPC? With FPC the code is open so you can tell. With delphi, it's closed development, so you cannot peer into their compiler sources and check to see if there are violations. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 2017-01-06 15:49, Lars wrote: > What does this product allow? CodeTyphon distributes the source code of Embarcadero's FireMonkey predecessor (previously known as VG-Scene or something), but rebranded as "Orca". Neither FireMonkey or its predecessor is/was open source. Regards, Graeme -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Thu, January 5, 2017 2:46 am, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: > I also know from first hand experience that Embarcadero has been made > aware of CodeTyphon's copying and distribution of FireMonkey (called Orca > or something in CodeTyphon). What does this product allow? Compilation of firemonkey apps using fpc compiler instead of delphi? ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Tue, January 3, 2017 5:47 am, Dmitriy Pomerantsev wrote: > Doesn't matter since FPC license allowing that. > > > Dmitriy Pomerantsev. Well, Kylix, AFAIR was actually released under GPL at one time too, so in a way delphi already allowed it too (although, more a LGPL would have really helped)... I think it was brought up in the Steve Trefethen fiasco years ago ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Sun, January 1, 2017 10:23 pm, Mr Bee wrote: > Hi all, > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is > just a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz > are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. I know > that isn't true. Or is it? ;) Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to > debunk the allegation but I don't know where to start and the evidence > for it. Thank you. Well considering the Borland/Codegear/Embarcadero has actually used FPC in one of their products they likely have the same allegations, just no one makes a fuss about it the other way around... ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On 2017-01-02 22:07, Sven Barth wrote: > Not to mention that for a little while Embarcadero even used Free Pascal > for their iOS support before they had their own compiler. Exactly, and that probably makes all arguments moot in a court of law. Nevertheless, we all know FPC and Lazarus take copyrighted code very serious, and prevents using it when found. The FPC project even includes a utility to make such code comparisons and reports the results. Years ago that utility was used to find and clean room implement a few copyrighted functions (or function implementations that was too close for comfort). I also know from first hand experience that Embarcadero has been made aware of CodeTyphon's copying and distribution of FireMonkey (called Orca or something in CodeTyphon). But then again, FPC and Lazarus has nothing to do with CodeTyphon - so no need to discuss that further here. Regards, Graeme -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/ My public PGP key: http://tinyurl.com/graeme-pgp ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Snorkl e wrote: They might with a change of ownership, who knows these days, but the fact they did use it in the past would not look good for any litigation from some bottom feeder. It's called "estoppel". g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
They might with a change of ownership, who knows these days, but the fact they did use it in the past would not look good for any litigation from some bottom feeder. On Jan 3, 2017 4:36 PM, "Sven Barth" wrote: > Am 03.01.2017 19:02 schrieb "Dmitriy Pomerantsev" : > > > > Doesn't matter since FPC license allowing that. > > You don't get the point, do you? I don't think they'd use FPC themselves > if they'd sue it the next time around. > > Regards, > Sven > > ___ > fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org > http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Am 03.01.2017 19:02 schrieb "Dmitriy Pomerantsev" : > > Doesn't matter since FPC license allowing that. You don't get the point, do you? I don't think they'd use FPC themselves if they'd sue it the next time around. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Doesn't matter since FPC license allowing that. Dmitriy Pomerantsev. 03.01.2017, 01:07, "Sven Barth" : > > Not to mention that for a little while Embarcadero even used Free Pascal for > their iOS support before they had their own compiler. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Maybe it's Niklaus Wirth, could be he's broke and decided it's time to collect license fees like Microsoft does with Android LOL just kidding. On Jan 2, 2017 4:07 PM, "Sven Barth" wrote: Am 02.01.2017 19:15 schrieb "Santiago A." : > Nevertheless, as someone has pointed, Embarcadero hasn't make any legal movement. Maybe because it thinks there is no legal base; or maybe because it doesn't care that much and thinks it's not worth the bad publicity. Not to mention that for a little while Embarcadero even used Free Pascal for their iOS support before they had their own compiler. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Am 02.01.2017 19:15 schrieb "Santiago A." : > Nevertheless, as someone has pointed, Embarcadero hasn't make any legal movement. Maybe because it thinks there is no legal base; or maybe because it doesn't care that much and thinks it's not worth the bad publicity. Not to mention that for a little while Embarcadero even used Free Pascal for their iOS support before they had their own compiler. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Hi, On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, Santiago A. wrote: > Well, I think it's evident that Freepascal and lazarus tries to be > delphi compatible, and that means that must look close to delphi to > imitate it's behavior and syntax. > > Is that reverse engineering? Well, I'm not a lawyer, I don't know where > "finding a similar solution for the same problem" ends and "Reverse > engineering" starts. Nowadays it looks like painting a line is patented. I'd like to point out, that reverse engineering is not illegal, in most countries. As in, investigate the workings of some software or computer system in general, then document how it works, and then write a replacement based on that. Neither is implementing a documented and well defined API. Heavily regulated it can be, and there are cases where it has to be done with great care, but just the fact that some information was obtained by some reverse engineering process doesn't make it immediately illegal. For example, writing unit tests to an API and then reimplement the API pass the same unit tests is a form of reverse engineering, but still it's an everyday practice in software engineering. And it has to be, otherwise most software would be illegal, really, especially in OOP where your class just extends the functionality of an object it inherits, and in overriden methods it has to reproduce some functionality... And so on. Looking at Delphi source code (or it's RTL's source code) and then implement similar feature *by the same person* in FPC would be illegal. But looking at the source cose is not reverse engineering, is it? So such accusations without any evidence is spreading FUD at best. Charlie___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
El 02/01/2017 a las 6:23, Mr Bee escribió: > Hi all, > > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) > is just a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of > FPC/Laz are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. > > I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) > > Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to debunk the allegation but I > don't know where to start and the evidence for it. Well, I think it's evident that Freepascal and lazarus tries to be delphi compatible, and that means that must look close to delphi to imitate it's behavior and syntax. Is that reverse engineering? Well, I'm not a lawyer, I don't know where "finding a similar solution for the same problem" ends and "Reverse engineering" starts. Nowadays it looks like painting a line is patented. Nevertheless, as someone has pointed, Embarcadero hasn't make any legal movement. Maybe because it thinks there is no legal base; or maybe because it doesn't care that much and thinks it's not worth the bad publicity. -- Saludos Santiago A. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
My question is why does this person even care to make such accusations? For one some of the routines in the run time are extremely generic and could easily be written exactly the same way and only way to prove it is if comments made by original coder are still in place. Sounds like a waste of time witch hunt to even entertain such thoughts without definitive proof and if said person holds back on such information that means they are interested in bottom feeder litigation. Shameful if you ask me. On Jan 1, 2017 11:23 PM, "Mr Bee" wrote: > Hi all, > > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is > just a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz > are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. > > I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) > > Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to debunk the allegation but I > don't know where to start and the evidence for it. > > Thank you. > > Regards, > > > –Mr Bee > > > ___ > fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org > http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal > ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Mon, 2 Jan 2017, Mr Bee wrote: Hi all, There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is just a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to debunk the allegation but I don't know where to start and the evidence for it. Tell the person to either prove it, or shut up about it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
In our previous episode, Mr Bee said: > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is just > a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz are taken > from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. > I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) Yes, so study the evidence closely. > Can anybody elaborate on this? Other than that it is patently wrong, no, since we don't have his accusations. > I'd like to debunk the allegation but I don't know where to start and the > evidence for it. Debunk is evidence to the contrary. If he hasn't provide evidence, challenge him to do so. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 05:23:06 + (UTC) Mr Bee wrote: > Hi all, > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is just > a reverse engineering of Delphi. FPC runs on 80 platforms. Delphi only runs on MS Windows 32/64 and can cross compile to a few more. FPC supports Delphi syntax and several more, including two of its own. > Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). > This is a serious allegation. Yes, and the FPC and Lazarus team treat them seriously. I don't know of such code, but if you find such code in FPC/Laz please report it, so it can be removed/replaced. > I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) > Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to debunk the allegation but I don't > know where to start and the evidence for it. Ask the accusers what part is taken, then look at the code and the commit history. Just for your interest: FPC/Lazarus is a volunteer project, which get a lot of patches from the community. Sometimes patches look like (altered) Delphi code and they get rejected. But nobody is perfect, and so some years ago some doubtful procedures were found. They had been replaced. Many such allegations were not about FPC/Laz, but about projects using FPC/Laz. Some accusers don't know the difference or don't care. Mattias ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal
Re: [fpc-pascal] FPC clean room project
Am 2017-01-02 um 06:23 schrieb Mr Bee: > There's someone accusing that Free Pascal (and some parts of Lazarus) is just a reverse engineering of Delphi. Even he said some codes of FPC/Laz are taken from Delphi (and Kylix). This is a serious allegation. > I know that isn't true. Or is it? ;) > Can anybody elaborate on this? I'd like to debunk the allegation but I don't know where to start and the evidence for it. I think the first "evidence" would be that Borland/Embarcadero did not initate any legal proceedings against FPC. They would surely have done this in case it is true. ___ fpc-pascal maillist - fpc-pascal@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fpc-pascal