Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Doug]

I concur with Michael, in that the serial comma it is sometimes necessary
but regardless, it is never harmful.  I use the serial comma by default,
unless the 'and' is part of a singular grouping such as "Bath and Wells" or
"Marks and Spencer", or some such.

Doug

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 4:47 AM Michael Lewis 
wrote:

> Ah. But it is necessary *sometimes*. The basis of the Oxford style is that
> including it is sometimes necessary but never harmful. Its consistent
> omission is often predicated on the quite false assumption that it does the
> same job as "and" so need never be used alongside it. But "and" is purely
> conjunctive whereas the comma can also be disjunctive.
> - Michael Lewis
>
>
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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Jeff Coatsworth]

Sounds like a Watercooler channel discussion on the Write the Docs Slack 
channel ;>)



From: Framers 
 on behalf 
of Johan Anglemark 
Sent: January 8, 2019 6:57 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

Could we please take the religious discussions elsewhere than this list?

-j

On 2019-01-08 12:55, Tom Beiswenger wrote:
> It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the 
> Chicago Manual of Style. Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or 
> more elements, the elements are separated by commas. When a conjunction joins 
> the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before the conjunction." 
> The British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs writers to NOT 
> use a serial comma.
>
> I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper 
> journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal 
> opinion is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or 
> no used must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been 
> using it for more than 30 years. I see no need to change.
>
>
> Tom Beiswenger
> Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation
>
> Emhart Glass Inc.
> 74 Kahler Road North • Horseheads NY 14845 • USA
> Telephone 1 607 735 2551 • Mobile +1 607 769 4779
> Fax +1 607 735 2601
> tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com
> www.bucheremhartglass.com
> www.bucherindustries.com
> Privacy Policy: 
> www.bucheremhartglass.com/privacy
>
> -"Framers" 
>  wrote: 
> -
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
> 
> From: Stephen Rickaby
> Sent by: "Framers"
> Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
> Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question
>
> At 09:33 + 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:
>
>> Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It 
>> was so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British 
>> publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being 
>> essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other 
>> publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers 
>> who have never used it.
>
> You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American 
> gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances where 
> the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that omitting it 
> is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest that you 
> might as well bung it in anyway.
>
> However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of 
> spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with 
> Mr Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on 
> several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial 
> comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was always 
> to include it.
>
> Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's 
> style guide:
>
> [Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid 
> an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins 
> (particularly where the items are lengthy). Examples:
>
> * ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational 
> psychologists.
>
> * The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]
>
> Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:
>
> * Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid 
> ambiguity.
>
> Or from The Economist style guide:
>
> * Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence 
> of items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.
>
> Thus:
>
> 'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But 
> he ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'
>


--
Johan Anglemark

Tel: 0708-65 10 88
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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Johan Anglemark]

Could we please take the religious discussions elsewhere than this list?

-j

On 2019-01-08 12:55, Tom Beiswenger wrote:

It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the Chicago Manual of Style. 
Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or more elements, the elements are separated by commas. 
When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before the conjunction." The 
British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs writers to NOT use a serial comma.

I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper 
journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal opinion 
is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or no used 
must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been using it for 
more than 30 years. I see no need to change.


Tom Beiswenger
Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation

Emhart Glass Inc.
74 Kahler Road North • Horseheads NY 14845 • USA
Telephone 1 607 735 2551 • Mobile +1 607 769 4779
Fax +1 607 735 2601
tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com
www.bucheremhartglass.com
www.bucherindustries.com
Privacy Policy: www.bucheremhartglass.com/privacy

-"Framers" 
 wrote: -
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

From: Stephen Rickaby
Sent by: "Framers"
Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

At 09:33 + 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:


Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was 
so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British publishers, 
mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being essential to avoid 
ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other publishers who don't use it, and 
generations of British and other writers who have never used it.


You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American 
gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances where 
the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that omitting it 
is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest that you might 
as well bung it in anyway.

However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of 
spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with Mr 
Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on 
several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial 
comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was always to 
include it.

Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's 
style guide:

[Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid 
an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins (particularly 
where the items are lengthy). Examples:

* ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational 
psychologists.

* The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]

Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:

* Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid 
ambiguity.

Or from The Economist style guide:

* Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence of 
items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.

Thus:

'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But he 
ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'




--
Johan Anglemark

Tel: 0708-65 10 88
___

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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Tom Beiswenger]

It's more than "Oxford style." The use of a serial comma is covered in the 
Chicago Manual of Style. Per entry 5.50: "In a series consisting of three or 
more elements, the elements are separated by commas. When a conjunction joins 
the last two elements in a series, a comma is used before the conjunction." The 
British "The Economist Style Guide" specifically directs writers to NOT use a 
serial comma.

I have followed the serial comma rule since I went from being a newspaper 
journalist to being a technical writer nearly 30 years ago. My personal opinion 
is that the serial comma can be optional, but whether it is used or no used 
must be consistent throughout any document or book. We have been using it for 
more than 30 years. I see no need to change.


Tom Beiswenger
Project Manager, Manager IB Technical Documentation

Emhart Glass Inc. 
74 Kahler Road North • Horseheads NY 14845 • USA
Telephone 1 607 735 2551 • Mobile +1 607 769 4779
Fax +1 607 735 2601
tom.beiswen...@emhartglass.com
www.bucheremhartglass.com
www.bucherindustries.com
Privacy Policy: www.bucheremhartglass.com/privacy

-"Framers" 
 wrote: 
-
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

From: Stephen Rickaby 
Sent by: "Framers" 
Date: 01/08/2019 05:10AM
Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

At 09:33 + 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:

>Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was 
>so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British 
>publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being 
>essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other 
>publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who 
>have never used it.

You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American 
gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances where 
the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that omitting it 
is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest that you might 
as well bung it in anyway.

However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of 
spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with Mr 
Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on 
several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial 
comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was always to 
include it.

Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's 
style guide:

[Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid 
an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins (particularly 
where the items are lengthy). Examples:

* ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational 
psychologists.

* The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]

Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:

* Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid 
ambiguity.

Or from The Economist style guide:

* Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence of 
items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.

Thus:

'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But he 
ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'

-- 
Steve
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This message i

Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Stephen Rickaby]

At 09:33 + 8/1/19, shuttie27 wrote:

>Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was 
>so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British 
>publishers, mandated it in their style guide. Secondly, as for its being 
>essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other 
>publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who 
>have never used it.

You are correct; I miswrote. 'Oxford Guide to Style', R M Ritter (an American 
gentleman, by the way), OUP 2002, pp 121-122. This cites many instances where 
the serial comma is necessary to avoid ambiguity, but admits that omitting it 
is often done in US and UK English, but then goes on to suggest that you might 
as well bung it in anyway.

However, following the publication of this book there was a good deal of 
spirited debate on the topic. As far as I remember (and I communicated with Mr 
Ritter at the time but have mislaid the emails), the consensus, based on 
several existing styles guides, was that 'UK style' was to omit the serial 
comma unless by so doing ambiguity was introduced, while US style was always to 
include it.

Here for example is the relevant part of the British Psycholoigcal Society's 
style guide:

[Commas are...] Not required before 'and' in a list of items, unless to avoid 
an ambiguity or to clarify where one item ends and another begins (particularly 
where the items are lengthy). Examples:

* ..in the professional work of clinical, forensic and educational 
psychologists.

* The Bishops of Winchester, and Bath and Wells [two bishops, not three]

Or this from the Thomson Learning style guide:

* Do not impose serial commas in lists of three or more items except to avoid 
ambiguity.

Or from The Economist style guide:

* Lists: with lists do not put a comma before 'and' at the end of a sequence of 
items unless one of the items includes another 'and'.

Thus:

'The doctor suggested an aspirin, half a grapefruit and a cup of broth. But he 
ordered scrambled eggs, whisky and soda, and a selection from the trolley.'

-- 
Steve
___

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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Michael Lewis]

Ah. But it is necessary *sometimes*. The basis of the Oxford style is that 
including it is sometimes necessary but never harmful. Its consistent omission 
is often predicated on the quite false assumption that it does the same job as 
"and" so need never be used alongside it. But "and" is purely conjunctive 
whereas the comma can also be disjunctive.
- Michael Lewis 


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. Original message From: 
shuttie27  Date: 08/01/2019  20:33  (GMT+10:00) To: "An 
email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software." 
 Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question 
Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was 
so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British 
publishers, mandated it in their style guide.Secondly, as for its being 
essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other 
publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who 
have never used it.
Roger


Sent from my tablet.
 Original message From: Stephen Rickaby 
 Date: 08/01/2019  08:49  (GMT+00:00) To: "An 
email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software." 
 Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question 
At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:

>I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
>avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both
>of these.

I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style, 
which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[shuttie27]

Two points:The "Oxford style" is to include the comma, not to omit it. It was 
so named because the Oxford University Press, almost alone among British 
publishers, mandated it in their style guide.Secondly, as for its being 
essential to avoid ambiguity, tell that to all the other British and other 
publishers who don't use it, and generations of British and other writers who 
have never used it.
Roger


Sent from my tablet.
 Original message From: Stephen Rickaby 
 Date: 08/01/2019  08:49  (GMT+00:00) To: "An 
email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software." 
 Subject: Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question 
At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:

>I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
>avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both
>of these.

I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style, 
which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Stephen Rickaby]

At 20:45 -0500 7/1/19, Doug wrote:

>I've always thought two of a tech writer's top values are accuracy, and
>avoidance of ambiguity.  The Oxford (or serial) comma is essential for both
>of these.

I should have been clearer and a bit less grumpy ;-) I follow the Oxford style, 
which is to omit the comma unless ambiguity is caused by doing so.

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] OT: Punctuation question

[Stephen Rickaby]

At 19:18 -0700 7/1/19,  wrote:

>I knew I would get a flurry of answers from the list, so thanks. I have what
>I need to make some substantiated edits.

Clearly I don't know the context of the surrounding text, but I think I'd favor 
some sort of list structure that introduces the information, then lists the 
tabs and gives brief details of the information displayed under each tab. 
Without more information I can't tell whether this would be appropriate, but if 
it is it would concentrate as much information in as small a space while being 
as unambiguous as possible.

Say...

'The tabs display the data as follows:

* Overview - (list of stuff under this tab)

* Category - (list of stuff under this tab)

* Locus - (list of stuff under this tab)

* Sequence - (list of stuff under this tab)

* Details - (list of stuff under this tab)'

But this might not be appropriate to the styles of your document.

Good luck, anyway - this is the sort of thing that makes editing enjoyable.

-- 
Steve
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