Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

 that actually does not involve the text of the target paragraph (as 
reference formats usually do, e.g.  with <$paratext>) but just the character 
“@”.

 

I haven’t actually tried this solution but it should work. However it is not 
ideal because in this approach only the “@” is clickable (a hyperlink). The 
reader of my document has to understand that convention and click at exactly 
the right place. Besides, having those “@” all over the place pollutes the 
text. Still, I reserve the possibility of using this approach if everything 
else fails.

 

The crazy approach is different. It does require some manual work: for every 
“glossary” entry in a paragraph of type TT I will have to insert, above or 
below, a zombie paragraph, of a paragraph type that I will call ZMB for this 
discussion. The zombie paragraph contains only the word being defined. So the 
above glossary example will now contain

 

cat

cat: a kind of *beast* whose pictures some people have an urge to post on 
Facebook

 

with the first paragraph of type ZMB and the second one of type TT as above. 
Now every source mention will be a cross reference, to the ZMB paragraph (not 
the originally intended one, of type TT, appearing just below) with the format 
<$paratext>, i.e. it reproduces the paragraph text, in this case “cat”.

 

So this works, at least for the very specific purpose of my text, but I have 
polluted the glossary with lots of zombie paragraphs – one for each entry. 
Elementary, my dear Watson: I now define the ZMB paragraph type so that the 
corresponding paragraphs are invisible. The best (i.e most invisible) way I 
have found so far is: use White as the font color; use 0 points as line spacing 
for the paragraph, and use 0 point too for the space before and after each ZMB 
paragraph; and use the smallest possible font that FrameMaker will accept, 
which I found to be 2pt. (Any better suggestion?)

 

I also have an auxiliary paragraph type, say ZOMBIE-PREPARATION, with 
reasonable (black, big enough) font, which I can use for the future ZMB 
paragraphs when I type them, then change them to ZMB.

 

The net effect on the text is that there will be some invisible paragraphs here 
and there (in glossary entries), adding a very small amount of line spacing, 
but it should be hardly noticeable by the document’s reader, and I might even 
be able to remove it altogether by removing 2pt from the standard above or 
below paragraph spacing of type TT.

 

I still have to type in all the ZMB paragraphs with the glossary entries. But 
there are far fewer glossary entries than source mentions. Maybe a couple 
hundred glossary entries, and thousands of source mentions. For the source 
mentions, I can just use the beautiful UI mechanism of cross references: select 
the target file, select the paragraph type (ZMB), scroll to the right term 
(which will be easy since the text of a ZMB paragraphs is precisely the 
glossary term), select it.

 

(I still have a small problem with letter-case variants of the source mentions, 
for example if a sentence start

 

Cat is not what I would call this particular thing, it looks 
more like a dog to me.

 

Because of the initial upper-case “C” per the rules of written English I need 
two ZMB paragraphs in this case, one of “cat” and one for “Cat”. This also adds 
another 2pt of line spacing. However it is not such a frequent occurrence so I 
assume I can live with it in practice.)

 

If you are still with me at this point thanks (and admiration) for your 
patience. Why we have to indulge in such bizarre tricks is left as an exercise 
– we should just be able to create a hyperlink the way we create a 
cross-reference, by getting a list of paragraphs from a UI dialog. But since 
the facility is not there, at least the bizarre trick provides a way to proceed.

 

Thanks for all the comments received.

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

 

 

 

 

From: Lin Sims [mailto:ljsims...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2020 20:56
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 

Cc: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

 

He's already using markers. His issue is that there are thousands of them and 
he doesn't want to have to manually type everything out everytime he inserts a 
link to another location in the document. 

 

If I understood him correctly, what he wants is to be able to select which 
predefined target marker to go to from a drop-down list when inserting the 
marker to create the hypertext link instead of having to manually type it in 
each time he inserts the gotolink marker. This would have to be scripted. 
Neither the Hypertext Marker insert nor the general Marker Insert window 
provide a drop-down list for anything other than the type of marker or type of 
Hypertext command to make part of the marker. 

 

I suppose a brute force method would be to create the destination marker first

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Peter Gold]

I like the part where it's revealed that memory isn't always accurate when
there's time to fact-check it. How familiar that is for me.

The good side is that doggedly chasing possible solutions often reveals new
insights through serendipity. Giving up early just plain isn't fun, but it
helps to meet one's deadline! :)

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:15 PM Syed Zaeem Hosain 
wrote:

> Hi, Bertrand.
>
> (Sending this to the list to note what I did for my doc.)
>
> I have sent you the original FrameMaker book that I used, but I don't
> think it will be a great answer for you! I opened this book on my other
> system that has FM, and I see that I used the hypertext "newlink ..." and
> "gotolink ..." mechanism to make it work in the PDF.
>
> Acrobat Pro will then output these as links in the PDF. (As a side-note,
> other PDF generation tools will not work with FrameMaker to create links in
> this manner though - that was the one test that has failed in my search for
> a replacement for Adobe Acrobat!)
>
> I downloaded your Eiffel specification and I see that the amount of manual
> work would be quite enormous ... even with brute-force global
> search-and-replace approaches (which is what I now remember doing for my
> much smaller document).
>
> And, of course, you had mentioned this issue in your original post.
>
> So, you may want to get Rick Quatro (one of the first responses to the
> list) to develop a script to automate this - perhaps with an input control
> file of all the terms (which could be easy to generate from the definition
> paragraphs you mentioned) for that brute-force search-and-replace.
>
> If you asked him to make the solution general enough, it could be
> something you could re-use easily in the future for this spec too.
>
> Z
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 1:04 PM
> To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. <
> framers@lists.frameusers.com>; bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; 'Shmuel
> Wolfson' 
> Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
> Okay, I found the PDF, but on this system, I don't have FrameMaker
> running, so I am not sure what I did (was eleven years ago ... and we went
> to an on-line version afterwards!). I _think_ it was cross-references in
> FrameMaker ...
>
> Bertrand, I can send the PDF to you to show the result if you want (not to
> the list, since it will drop attachments) - if this is what you want to do,
> please let me know and I will look for that FM book on another system.
>
> In this PDF, I did not underline the words, but the cursor changes in
> Acrobat (to show that clicking on the word will take you elsewhere within
> the document). Underlining would have been easy enough to add as well
> though.
>
> Z
>
> As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after
> the word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word
> in the email. The '*' makes it show in bold.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:52 PM
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
> FrameMaker software. ; 'Shmuel Wolfson' <
> shmue...@gmail.com>
> Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
> Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can
> find that document and remember how I did it.
>
> Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is
> not proprietary information.
>
> Z
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Framers 
> On Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM
> To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people
> using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
> Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
> No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous
> version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is
> written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious
> effort by many people.) See
> https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm.
> Some words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced
> with a rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version,
> such words are underlined. For example, a sentence such as
>
> This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or
> it might be an *unclassified* beast.
>
> (I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am usi

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Hi, Bertrand.

(Sending this to the list to note what I did for my doc.)

I have sent you the original FrameMaker book that I used, but I don't think it 
will be a great answer for you! I opened this book on my other system that has 
FM, and I see that I used the hypertext "newlink ..." and "gotolink ..." 
mechanism to make it work in the PDF. 

Acrobat Pro will then output these as links in the PDF. (As a side-note, other 
PDF generation tools will not work with FrameMaker to create links in this 
manner though - that was the one test that has failed in my search for a 
replacement for Adobe Acrobat!)

I downloaded your Eiffel specification and I see that the amount of manual work 
would be quite enormous ... even with brute-force global search-and-replace 
approaches (which is what I now remember doing for my much smaller document).

And, of course, you had mentioned this issue in your original post. 

So, you may want to get Rick Quatro (one of the first responses to the list) to 
develop a script to automate this - perhaps with an input control file of all 
the terms (which could be easy to generate from the definition paragraphs you 
mentioned) for that brute-force search-and-replace. 

If you asked him to make the solution general enough, it could be something you 
could re-use easily in the future for this spec too. 

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 1:04 PM
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software. 
; bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; 'Shmuel Wolfson' 

Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Okay, I found the PDF, but on this system, I don't have FrameMaker running, so 
I am not sure what I did (was eleven years ago ... and we went to an on-line 
version afterwards!). I _think_ it was cross-references in FrameMaker ...

Bertrand, I can send the PDF to you to show the result if you want (not to the 
list, since it will drop attachments) - if this is what you want to do, please 
let me know and I will look for that FM book on another system.

In this PDF, I did not underline the words, but the cursor changes in Acrobat 
(to show that clicking on the word will take you elsewhere within the 
document). Underlining would have been easy enough to add as well though.

Z

As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after the 
word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word in the 
email. The '*' makes it show in bold.

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:52 PM
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. ; 'Shmuel Wolfson' 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can find 
that document and remember how I did it.

Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is not 
proprietary information.

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM
To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people using 
Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous 
version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is 
written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by 
many people.) See 
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some 
words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a 
rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words 
are underlined. For example, a sentence such as

This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it 
might be an *unclassified* beast. 

(I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using 
asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses 
underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and 
"unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.

Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined 
elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the 
reader has to run searches all the time.)

This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which 
includes precise definitions.

In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type 
(format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the 
writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of 
paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't 
work since they impose

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Lin Sims]

He's already using markers. His issue is that there are thousands of them
and he doesn't want to have to manually type everything out everytime he
inserts a link to another location in the document.

If I understood him correctly, what he wants is to be able to select which
predefined target marker to go to from a drop-down list when inserting the
marker to create the hypertext link instead of having to manually type it
in each time he inserts the gotolink marker. This would have to be
scripted. Neither the Hypertext Marker insert nor the general Marker Insert
window provide a drop-down list for anything other than the type of marker
or type of Hypertext command to make part of the marker.

I suppose a brute force method would be to create the destination marker
first, then find the first instance of the word or term you want to
hyperlink to a definition, create your gotolink, copy the word or term
including the marker, then do a search for the word or term and replace it
with the information on the clipboard. In fact, I think that was the method
recommended by Matt Sullivan when he described how to set up special
markers for glossary terms and definitions in the article I linked to
earlier in the thread. Except in Matt's solution, you can (I think) get it
to open a non-modal window with the text of the definition at the spot so
the user can just click the link, read the term in the pop-up, and close
the pop-up without having to return the the original location in the
document because you never left it. Or maybe that was one of Shlomo Perets
TimeSavers.

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 12:06 PM Wim Hooghwinkel - idtp  wrote:

> Hi Bertrand,
>
> not sure if that will work, but did you try to use markers? Insert a
> marker (of your own type) at the target location and create a link
> (hyperlink or cross-ref) to that marker that displays the marker text.
> Additional benefit is that it will also allow you to create an 'index' of
> those markers in your publication.
>
> Else, best advise is to contact Rick Quatro and ask him to propose a
> script that will help you to insert those newlink and gotolink markers in
> asiple manner. He’s very good at that. A script is an investment, but ROI
> is very quick.
>
>
> Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
>
> Wim Hooghwinkel
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
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-- 
Lin Sims
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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Wim Hooghwinkel - idtp]

Hi Bertrand,

not sure if that will work, but did you try to use markers? Insert a marker (of 
your own type) at the target location and create a link (hyperlink or 
cross-ref) to that marker that displays the marker text. Additional benefit is 
that it will also allow you to create an 'index' of those markers in your 
publication.

Else, best advise is to contact Rick Quatro and ask him to propose a script 
that will help you to insert those newlink and gotolink markers in asiple 
manner. He’s very good at that. A script is an investment, but ROI is very 
quick.


Vriendelijke groet / Kind regards,
 
Wim Hooghwinkel


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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Steve Rickaby]

Ah, I get it now: you want to set up hyperlinks to arbitrary destinations that 
themselves contain user-defined text that is not an echo of any text at the 
destination target. [Like I said, I should have kept out of it.]

If Said doesn't come up with anything (which I doubt), I'll rake through my 
archives, but my suspicion is that Lin is correct: you need to use a script or 
something. I'm sure Rick could knock something up for you.
 
Unless Steve at siliconprairie has a plug-in that could help with this?

-- 
Steve
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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

-Original Message-
I said:
> As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after the 
> word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word in 
> the email. The '*' makes it show in bold.

Oops, I am wrong. The underscore _italizes_ the word in email, not underline it.

Z
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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Okay, I found the PDF, but on this system, I don't have FrameMaker running, so 
I am not sure what I did (was eleven years ago ... and we went to an on-line 
version afterwards!). I _think_ it was cross-references in FrameMaker ...

Bertrand, I can send the PDF to you to show the result if you want (not to the 
list, since it will drop attachments) - if this is what you want to do, please 
let me know and I will look for that FM book on another system.

In this PDF, I did not underline the words, but the cursor changes in Acrobat 
(to show that clicking on the word will take you elsewhere within the 
document). Underlining would have been easy enough to add as well though.

Z

As a completely separate BTW, if you put an underscore before and after the 
word in emails (see -->), _some_ email systems will underline that word in the 
email. The '*' makes it show in bold.

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Syed Zaeem Hosain
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:52 PM
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. ; 'Shmuel Wolfson' 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can find 
that document and remember how I did it.

Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is not 
proprietary information.

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM
To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people using 
Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous 
version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is 
written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by 
many people.) See 
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some 
words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a 
rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words 
are underlined. For example, a sentence such as

This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it 
might be an *unclassified* beast. 

(I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using 
asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses 
underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and 
"unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.

Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined 
elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the 
reader has to run searches all the time.)

This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which 
includes precise definitions.

In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type 
(format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the 
writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of 
paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't 
work since they impose a format based on the target, not the source.

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:55
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems (page 
xx)"?

On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets 
> being paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources:
> I don't want them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the 
> FrameMaker sense, whose displayed text is deduced from the target 
> (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to be arbitrary text.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- BM
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe 
> FrameMaker software. 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
>> Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>> cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use 
>> a reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking 
>> text, as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", 
>> where the underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the
>> underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>>
>> Hyperli

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Syed Zaeem Hosain]

Hmmm, I seem to recall doing this in FrameMaker ... I will see if I can find 
that document and remember how I did it.

Used it in a glossary doc, so I may be able to send it along since it is not 
proprietary information.

Z

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of Bertrand Meyer
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 5:13 AM
To: 'Shmuel Wolfson' ; 'An email list for people using 
Adobe FrameMaker software.' 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous 
version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is 
written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by 
many people.) See 
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some 
words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a 
rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words 
are underlined. For example, a sentence such as

This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it 
might be an *unclassified* beast. 

(I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using 
asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses 
underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and 
"unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.

Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined 
elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the 
reader has to run searches all the time.)

This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which 
includes precise definitions.

In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type 
(format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the 
writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of 
paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't 
work since they impose a format based on the target, not the source.

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:55
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems (page 
xx)"?

On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets 
> being paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources:
> I don't want them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the 
> FrameMaker sense, whose displayed text is deduced from the target 
> (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to be arbitrary text.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- BM
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe 
> FrameMaker software. 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
>> Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>> cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use 
>> a reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking 
>> text, as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", 
>> where the underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the
>> underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>>
>> Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a 
>> gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is 
>> horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is 
>> not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I 
>> should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
> cross-references.
>
>  From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I 
> never needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you 
> are stymied by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to 
> named styles, i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific 
> runs of text such as a sentence. If there's a way to do this that 
> doesn't involve a double-link process, I'd be interested to hear of 
> it, even though I seldom use FrameMaker these days.
>
> --
> Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736
> 810575 Five times World Bread Awards winner:
> 2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about 
> Real Bread, see <http://www.realbreadcampaign.org>
> For more about me, see <http://www.

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Lin Sims]

As Winfried said, there's no way to do this in FrameMaker, although someone
like Rick might be able to script it for you.

The closest you can get without a script is, I think, to use the Glossary
Term / Glossary Definition markers described by Matt Sullivan (
https://techcommtools.com/by-request-framemaker-glossary-and-glossaryterm-markers/),
but it's still going to be a manual process.

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 8:18 AM Bertrand Meyer 
wrote:

> No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous
> version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is
> written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious
> effort by many people.) See
> https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm.
> Some words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced
> with a rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version,
> such words are underlined. For example, a sentence such as
>
> This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or
> it might be an *unclassified* beast.
>
> (I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using
> asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses
> underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and
> "unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.
>
> Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined
> elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the
> reader has to run searches all the time.)
>
> This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which
> includes precise definitions.
>
> In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific
> type (format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from
> the writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a
> list of paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But
> cross-references don't work since they impose a format based on the target,
> not the source.
>
> -- BM
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:55
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
> FrameMaker software. 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
> Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems
> (page xx)"?
>
> On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> > Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets
> > being paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources:
> > I don't want them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the
> > FrameMaker sense, whose displayed text is deduced from the target
> > (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to be arbitrary text.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -- BM
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
> > To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
> > FrameMaker software. 
> > Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
> >
> >> Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a
> >> cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use
> >> a reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking
> >> text, as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems",
> >> where the underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the
> >> underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.
> >>
> >> Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a
> >> gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is
> >> horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is
> >> not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I
> >> should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
> > cross-references.
> >
> >  From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I
> > never needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you
> > are stymied by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to
> > named styles, i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific
> > runs of text such as a sentence. If there's a way to do this that
> > doesn't involve a double-link process, I'd be interested to hear of
> > it, even though I seldom use FrameMaker these days.
> >

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

No. Let me explain. This is the text of a language standard (the previous 
version is an ISO standard, International Standards Organization). It is 
written very rigorously. (It is the result of many years of laborious effort by 
many people.) See 
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. Some 
words have their ordinary meanings and others have meanings introduced with a 
rigorous definition in the standard itself. In the previous version, such words 
are underlined. For example, a sentence such as

This particular beast might be a *cat* or it might be a *dog* or it 
might be an *unclassified* beast. 

(I have the impression that the remailer removes underlining so I am using 
asterisks, as in *underlined_word*, instead.) The example sentence uses 
underlining to expressthat the underlined notions, "cat", "dog" and 
"unclassified", have a formal definition somewhere in the text.

Quite understandably, people have started to ask that all such underlined 
elements should be links to the corresponding definitions. (Otherwise, the 
reader has to run searches all the time.)

This kind of thing is needed for any normative text of that kind, which 
includes precise definitions.

In FrameMaker terms, all the definitions are in paragraphs of one specific type 
(format in FrameMaker terminology), so the obvious thing to do from the 
writer's perspective would be to be able to select the target from a list of 
paragraphs of that type, as with cross-references. But cross-references don't 
work since they impose a format based on the target, not the source.

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Shmuel Wolfson [mailto:shmue...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 12:55
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker 
software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems (page 
xx)"?

On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets 
> being paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources: 
> I don't want them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the 
> FrameMaker sense, whose displayed text is deduced from the target 
> (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to be arbitrary text.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- BM
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
> To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe 
> FrameMaker software. 
> Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
>
>> Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>> cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use 
>> a reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking 
>> text, as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", 
>> where the underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the 
>> underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>>
>> Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a 
>> gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is 
>> horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is 
>> not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I 
>> should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
> cross-references.
>
>  From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I 
> never needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you 
> are stymied by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to 
> named styles, i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific 
> runs of text such as a sentence. If there's a way to do this that 
> doesn't involve a double-link process, I'd be interested to hear of 
> it, even though I seldom use FrameMaker these days.
>
> --
> Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 
> 810575 Five times World Bread Awards winner:
> 2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about 
> Real Bread, see <http://www.realbreadcampaign.org>
> For more about me, see <http://www.linkedin.com/in/steverickaby>
> For superficial waffle, see <https://www.facebook.com/steve.rickaby.9>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com Visit the list's 
> homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com Archives located at 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Shmuel Wolfson]

Can't you just write "this is explained in the discussion of cat 
problems (page xx)"?


On 27-Oct-20 12:27 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:

Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets being
paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources: I don't want
them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the FrameMaker sense, whose
displayed text is deduced from the target (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to
be arbitrary text.

Thanks,

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs


Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a
cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a
reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text,
as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the
underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is
my own text but a link to some chosen place.

Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a
gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is
horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is
not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I
should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with

cross-references.

 From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I never
needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you are stymied
by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to named styles,
i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific runs of text such as a
sentence. If there's a way to do this that doesn't involve a double-link
process, I'd be interested to hear of it, even though I seldom use
FrameMaker these days.

--
Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 810575
Five times World Bread Awards winner:
2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about Real
Bread, see <http://www.realbreadcampaign.org>
For more about me, see <http://www.linkedin.com/in/steverickaby>
For superficial waffle, see <https://www.facebook.com/steve.rickaby.9>

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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Actually my problem is not exactly this. I am happy with link targets being
paragraphs. (They already are.) My problem is the link sources: I don't want
them to be in a "cross-reference format" in the FrameMaker sense, whose
displayed text is deduced from the target (e.g. "section 4.5"); they have to
be arbitrary text.

Thanks,

-- BM

-Original Message-
From: Steve Rickaby [mailto:srick...@wordmongers.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 11:03
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch; An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software. 
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

>Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a 
>cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a 
>reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, 
>as in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the 
>underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is 
>my own text but a link to some chosen place.
>
>Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a 
>gotolink at the source and a newlink at the target, which is 
>horrendously tedious if one has thousands such cases. The newlink is 
>not conceptually necessary since all the targets are paragraphs so I 
>should be able simply to choose from a paragraph list as with
cross-references.

>From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I never
needed to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you are stymied
by FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to named styles,
i.e. at the paragraph level, rather than to specific runs of text such as a
sentence. If there's a way to do this that doesn't involve a double-link
process, I'd be interested to hear of it, even though I seldom use
FrameMaker these days.

--
Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 810575
Five times World Bread Awards winner:
2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver For more about Real
Bread, see <http://www.realbreadcampaign.org>
For more about me, see <http://www.linkedin.com/in/steverickaby>
For superficial waffle, see <https://www.facebook.com/steve.rickaby.9>

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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Steve Rickaby]

>Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a
>cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a
>reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, as
>in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the
>underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is my
>own text but a link to some chosen place.
>
>Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a gotolink
>at the source and a newlink at the target, which is horrendously tedious if
>one has thousands such cases. The newlink is not conceptually necessary
>since all the targets are paragraphs so I should be able simply to choose
>from a paragraph list as with cross-references.

>From memory I used to use the double-link method for this, but I never needed 
>to do it very often. I appreciate your problem. AFAIK you are stymied by 
>FrameMaker's internal model, which only allows xrefs to named styles, i.e. at 
>the paragraph level, rather than to specific runs of text such as a sentence. 
>If there's a way to do this that doesn't involve a double-link process, I'd be 
>interested to hear of it, even though I seldom use FrameMaker these days.

-- 
Baker Steve, aka Steve Rickaby BSc MBCS CITP AMBHI Tel : +44 1 736 810575
Five times World Bread Awards winner:
2015 Silver, 2016 Silver, 2017 Bronze*2, 2019 Silver
For more about Real Bread, see 
For more about me, see 
For superficial waffle, see 
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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Reng Winfried]

Hi Bertrand,

Yes, I would also like such a spot cross-reference!
This is an old feature request. If this gets enough attention,
this might make it into the next release.
You can vote here:
https://tracker.adobe.com/#/view/FRMAKER-2294

Best regards

Winfried

-Original Message-
From: Framers 
 On Behalf 
Of Bertrand Meyer
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2020 10:56 AM
To: 'An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.' 

Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

Dear Steve and Lin,

 

Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a cross-reference 
format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a reference format, I 
want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, as in "this is explained in 
the discussion of cat problems", where the underlined text (I hope the mailing 
list mailer keeps the underline) is my own text but a link to some chosen place.

 

Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a gotolink at 
the source and a newlink at the target, which is horrendously tedious if one 
has thousands such cases. The newlink is not conceptually necessary since all 
the targets are paragraphs so I should be able simply to choose from a 
paragraph list as with cross-references.

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+bertrand.meyer=inf.ethz...@lists.frameusers.com] On 
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 14:50
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

 

>I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are

>trying to do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a

>specific paragraph tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

 

I'm glad you posted this, Lin. I was about to do the same, but then my Inner 
Voice said "Nah - you've been out of the loop too long: you're missing 
something. Keep quiet." :-)

 

--

Steve

 

'I see you have a cat problem' 'I don't have a cat' 'That's your cat problem'

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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Dear Steve and Lin,

 

Thanks for the comments. A cross-references forces me to use a
cross-reference format for the link, e.g. "section 4.5". I cannot use a
reference format, I want to use an arbitrary text for the linking text, as
in "this is explained in the discussion of cat problems", where the
underlined text (I hope the mailing list mailer keeps the underline) is my
own text but a link to some chosen place.

 

Hyperlinks to this but force me in each case to add two commands, a gotolink
at the source and a newlink at the target, which is horrendously tedious if
one has thousands such cases. The newlink is not conceptually necessary
since all the targets are paragraphs so I should be able simply to choose
from a paragraph list as with cross-references.

 

With best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

-Original Message-
From: Framers
[mailto:framers-bounces+bertrand.meyer=inf.ethz...@lists.frameusers.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Rickaby
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 14:50
To: An email list for people using Adobe FrameMaker software.

Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

 

>I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are 

>trying to do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a 

>specific paragraph tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

 

I'm glad you posted this, Lin. I was about to do the same, but then my Inner
Voice said "Nah - you've been out of the loop too long: you're missing
something. Keep quiet." :-)

 

--

Steve

 

'I see you have a cat problem' 'I don't have a cat' 'That's your cat
problem'

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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[rick]

A script could be used to convert the cross-references to Hypertext links.
Please contact me off-list if you are interested in exploring this. Thank
you very much.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
585-729-6746
r...@frameexpert.com
http://www.frameexpert.com/store



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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Shmuel Wolfson]

The link has to be pointing a paragraph, not a word, but you can use 
run-in paragraphs for this to make a specific word or phrase be 
considered a paragraph.



On 22-Oct-20 8:40 PM, Bertrand Meyer wrote:

This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been using
FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used intra-document
hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of them).

  


What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form

  


 Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to some
other part of the text

  


where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF
clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.

  


I am used to cross-references, as in

  


 ... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the
previous chapter ...

  


but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference format;
as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as source of the
hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.

  


I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" Hypertext
marker under pointer (the source location) and another of the form "newlink
XXX" at the target location.

  


But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for every
single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding place. I have
-- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume
several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no conceptual
need for these markers.

  


(The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which the
previous version is at
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. If
you look up the text you will see that it has thousands of underlined
elements, e.g. unfolded form in the last bullet item on page 97. They
correspond to concepts defined formally elsewhere in the text. At the moment
one has to look them up in the index, or perform a search. They should be
hyperlinks! Hence the question.)

  


The reason it is pointless to have to insert "newlink XXX" all over the
place is that since the hyperlinks always go to tart paragraphs of specific
types ("formats"). (I fanatically use FrameMaker paragraph-typing
mechanisms.) I just want to link to a specific paragraph of a specific type,
choosing it from the automatically list, as I do with cross-references.

  


Is there a way to do this?

  


I am using FrameMaker 2015, although I will soon update to the latest
version.

  


Thanks in advance for any suggestions and best regards,

  


-- Bertrand Meyer

  


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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

Dear Julie,

Thank you very much, this looks exactly like what I need!

Come to think of it, when I was using FrameMaker on Unix, I would have
written a script using fmbatch to generate MIF, process the text using some
of the standard Unix utilities, and convert back to .fm format. On Windows
it's not as straightforward so your scripts will be very welcome.

Thanks a lot,

-- Bertrand Meyer

-Original Message-
From: Myers, Julie L [mailto:my...@iodp.tamu.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 22:33
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Cc: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

I have a couple of ExtendScripts that might help. One adds a newlink to
specific paragraph formats and the other adds the gotolink. You would need
to customize them and possibly modify them in other ways, but it might be a
start. Let me know if you would like for me to send them to you. (I don't
know if we are allowed to send attachments here.)

Julie 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On
Behalf Of framers-requ...@lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 3:02 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Framers Digest, Vol 175, Issue 8

Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers@lists.frameusers.com To
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-frameusers.com__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNy
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Lin Sims)
   2. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Steve Rickaby)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:45:52 -0400
From: Lin Sims 
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch,  "An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software." 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are trying to
do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a specific paragraph
tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

Or you could use Glossary markers. Matt Sullivan has a good section
explaining how to set up Glossary Terms and Glossary Definitions (marker
types you'd have to create) in his FrameMaker Working with Content book (
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://techcommtools.com/books/__;!!KwNVnqRv!Uj
thGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8lNxeP8Mw$ ). That
one is for 2017, but he's putting out one for 2020 soon.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 1:40 PM Bertrand Meyer 
wrote:

> This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been 
> using FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used 
> intra-document hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of
them).
>
>
>
> What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form
>
>
>
> Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to 
> some other part of the text
>
>
>
> where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
> underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF 
> clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.
>
>
>
> I am used to cross-references, as in
>
>
>
> ... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the 
> previous chapter ...
>
>
>
> but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference 
> format; as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as 
> source of the hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.
>
>
>
> I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" 
> Hypertext marker under pointer (the source location) and another of 
> the form "newlink XXX" at the target location.
>
>
>
> But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for 
> every single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding 
> place. I have
> -- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume 
> several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no 
> conceptual need for these markers.
>
>
>
> (The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which 
> the previous version is at 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ecma-international.org/publica
> tions/standards/Ecma-367.htm__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2
> g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8nEG51xTQ$ . If you look up the t

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Myers, Julie L]

I have a couple of ExtendScripts that might help. One adds a newlink to 
specific paragraph formats and the other adds the gotolink. You would need to 
customize them and possibly modify them in other ways, but it might be a start. 
Let me know if you would like for me to send them to you. (I don't know if we 
are allowed to send attachments here.)

Julie 

-Original Message-
From: Framers  On 
Behalf Of framers-requ...@lists.frameusers.com
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2020 3:02 PM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Framers Digest, Vol 175, Issue 8

Send Framers mailing list submissions to framers@lists.frameusers.com To 
subscribe or unsubscribe, visit 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8nSbAeL0w$
  You can reach the person managing the list at 
framers-ow...@lists.frameusers.com When replying, please edit your Subject line 
so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Framers digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Lin Sims)
   2. Re:  Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs (Steve Rickaby)


--

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 08:45:52 -0400
From: Lin Sims 
To: bertrand.me...@inf.ethz.ch,  "An email list for people using Adobe
FrameMaker software." 
Cc: me...@inf.ethz.ch
Subject: Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are trying to 
do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a specific paragraph tag 
for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

Or you could use Glossary markers. Matt Sullivan has a good section explaining 
how to set up Glossary Terms and Glossary Definitions (marker types you'd have 
to create) in his FrameMaker Working with Content book ( 
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://techcommtools.com/books/__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8lNxeP8Mw$
 ). That one is for 2017, but he's putting out one for 2020 soon.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 1:40 PM Bertrand Meyer 
wrote:

> This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been 
> using FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used 
> intra-document hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of 
> them).
>
>
>
> What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form
>
>
>
> Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to 
> some other part of the text
>
>
>
> where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
> underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF 
> clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.
>
>
>
> I am used to cross-references, as in
>
>
>
> ... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the 
> previous chapter ...
>
>
>
> but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference 
> format; as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as 
> source of the hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.
>
>
>
> I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" 
> Hypertext marker under pointer (the source location) and another of 
> the form "newlink XXX" at the target location.
>
>
>
> But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for 
> every single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding 
> place. I have
> -- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume 
> several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no 
> conceptual need for these markers.
>
>
>
> (The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which 
> the previous version is at 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ecma-international.org/publica
> tions/standards/Ecma-367.htm__;!!KwNVnqRv!UjthGn2Gjlzi2JoNodQTJ_4BVpr2
> g5seqMVlSLBfO4dITNyRREzSCnJtG8nEG51xTQ$ . If you look up the text you 
> will see that it has thousands of underlined elements, e.g. unfolded 
> form in the last bullet item on page 97. They correspond to concepts 
> defined formally elsewhere in the text. At the moment one has to look 
> them up in the index, or perform a search. They should be hyperlinks! 
> Hence the question.)
>
>
>
> The reason it is pointless to have to insert "newlink XXX" all over 
> the place is that since the hyperlinks always go to tart paragraphs of 
> specific types ("formats"). (I fanatically use FrameMaker 
> paragraph-typing
> mec

Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Steve Rickaby]

>I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are trying
>to do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a specific
>paragraph tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

I'm glad you posted this, Lin. I was about to do the same, but then my Inner 
Voice said "Nah - you've been out of the loop too long: you're missing 
something. Keep quiet." :-)

-- 
Steve

'I see you have a cat problem' 'I don't have a cat' 'That's your cat problem'
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Re: [Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Lin Sims]

I must be missing something here, or misunderstanding what you are trying
to do. A cross-reference is a hyperlink. If you are using a specific
paragraph tag for your target, why not just use a cross-reference?

Or you could use Glossary markers. Matt Sullivan has a good section
explaining how to set up Glossary Terms and Glossary Definitions (marker
types you'd have to create) in his FrameMaker Working with Content book (
https://techcommtools.com/books/). That one is for 2017, but he's putting
out one for 2020 soon.

On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 1:40 PM Bertrand Meyer 
wrote:

> This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been using
> FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used intra-document
> hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of them).
>
>
>
> What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form
>
>
>
> Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to some
> other part of the text
>
>
>
> where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
> underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF
> clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.
>
>
>
> I am used to cross-references, as in
>
>
>
> ... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the
> previous chapter ...
>
>
>
> but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference format;
> as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as source of the
> hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.
>
>
>
> I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" Hypertext
> marker under pointer (the source location) and another of the form "newlink
> XXX" at the target location.
>
>
>
> But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for every
> single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding place. I have
> -- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume
> several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no conceptual
> need for these markers.
>
>
>
> (The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which the
> previous version is at
> https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. If
> you look up the text you will see that it has thousands of underlined
> elements, e.g. unfolded form in the last bullet item on page 97. They
> correspond to concepts defined formally elsewhere in the text. At the
> moment
> one has to look them up in the index, or perform a search. They should be
> hyperlinks! Hence the question.)
>
>
>
> The reason it is pointless to have to insert "newlink XXX" all over the
> place is that since the hyperlinks always go to tart paragraphs of specific
> types ("formats"). (I fanatically use FrameMaker paragraph-typing
> mechanisms.) I just want to link to a specific paragraph of a specific
> type,
> choosing it from the automatically list, as I do with cross-references.
>
>
>
> Is there a way to do this?
>
>
>
> I am using FrameMaker 2015, although I will soon update to the latest
> version.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions and best regards,
>
>
>
> -- Bertrand Meyer
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This message is from the Framers mailing list
>
> Send messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com
> Visit the list's homepage at  http://www.frameusers.com
> Archives located at
> http://www.mail-archive.com/framers%40lists.frameusers.com/
> Subscribe and unsubscribe at
> http://lists.frameusers.com/listinfo.cgi/framers-frameusers.com
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com
>


-- 
Lin Sims
___

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[Framers] Basic question: hyperlinks to paragraphs

[Bertrand Meyer]

This is a novice question. In fact I am not a novice as I have been using
FrameMaker extensively for many years, but I have not used intra-document
hyperlinks so far, jut  cross-references (lots and lots  of them).

 

What I want to do now is simple to state: have text of the form

 

Blah blah this is some text and that is a pointer to some
other part of the text

 

where pointer (using a specific character format, in this case causing
underlining) is a hyperlink or equivalent so that in the generated PDF
clicking it will go to some designated target place in the text.

 

I am used to cross-references, as in

 

... This was discussed in section 4.5, page 67, of the
previous chapter ...

 

but they only make it possible to have a source that is a reference format;
as far as I know they do not make it possible to have as source of the
hyperlink an arbitrary word, such as "pointer" above.

 

I also know how to create a hyperlink, putting a "gotolink XXX" Hypertext
marker under pointer (the source location) and another of the form "newlink
XXX" at the target location.

 

But this is horrible because I need to invent a new label ("XXX") for every
single target, and insert "newlink XXX" at the corresponding place. I have
-- literally -- thousands such locations; inserting them would consume
several days of my life, spent in a silly way since there is no conceptual
need for these markers.

 

(The text, by the way, is the revision of the Eiffel standard of which the
previous version is at
https://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-367.htm. If
you look up the text you will see that it has thousands of underlined
elements, e.g. unfolded form in the last bullet item on page 97. They
correspond to concepts defined formally elsewhere in the text. At the moment
one has to look them up in the index, or perform a search. They should be
hyperlinks! Hence the question.)

 

The reason it is pointless to have to insert "newlink XXX" all over the
place is that since the hyperlinks always go to tart paragraphs of specific
types ("formats"). (I fanatically use FrameMaker paragraph-typing
mechanisms.) I just want to link to a specific paragraph of a specific type,
choosing it from the automatically list, as I do with cross-references.  

 

Is there a way to do this?

 

I am using FrameMaker 2015, although I will soon update to the latest
version.

 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions and best regards,

 

-- Bertrand Meyer

 

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