Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Thanks everyone for all your responses. I've been away, so I missed the last
few responses.

Some updates:  I should have mentioned that the original docs are in Word,
not Frame, so that kind of conversion is not applicable in this case, but
the information provided is good to know for future reference.
I should also mention that the doc set is two versions of a user doc (mostly
identical, differences easily handled by conditional text, one 
chapter is completely different between the two, handled by books) that runs
about 70-75 pages in Word, and a quick start guide (about 10 pages). Child's
play!

The client is still determined that the priority is (1) open source, (2)
Mac, (3) Framemaker on Mac.

I didn't realize that OpenOffice Writer did conditional text. I found an
article that compared it pretty favourable with Framemaker
(http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/39406), but it was written in 2004. I
didn't find much (anything) more recent. Why is that? It seems so promising
based on the article. Has anyone out there actually used Writer for user
docs?

My colleague, who will be the one working on this project, was playing
around with Writer, and sees that it's obviously not on a par with
Framemaker, but it will probably suffice for this client if that's their
insistence. Scribus does text insets, but not conditional text. I had
planned that the document set would use both features, but if we really have
to use either Scribus or Writer, then conditional text is more important. We
can work around the text inset requirement.

Laurie



~
You also mentioned wanting an open source tool. As Peter said, there's no
open
source replacement for FrameMaker with all of its features. However, I think
that OpenOffice Writer is remarkably good and has many advanced features. It
does not have text inset features, but it does have conditional text and
variables, but not on par with FrameMaker. For basic PDF publishing of long
technical documents, OpenOffice Writer is far superior to Word and
comparable
with FrameMaker.

Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Thanks everyone for all your responses. I've been away, so I missed the last
few responses.

Some updates:  I should have mentioned that the original docs are in Word,
not Frame, so that kind of conversion is not applicable in this case, but
the information provided is good to know for future reference.
I should also mention that the doc set is two versions of a user doc (mostly
identical, differences easily handled by conditional text, one 
chapter is completely different between the two, handled by books) that runs
about 70-75 pages in Word, and a quick start guide (about 10 pages). Child's
play!

The client is still determined that the priority is (1) open source, (2)
Mac, (3) Framemaker on Mac.

I didn't realize that OpenOffice Writer did conditional text. I found an
article that compared it pretty favourable with Framemaker
(http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/39406), but it was written in 2004. I
didn't find much (anything) more recent. Why is that? It seems so promising
based on the article. Has anyone out there actually used Writer for user
docs?

My colleague, who will be the one working on this project, was playing
around with Writer, and sees that it's obviously not on a par with
Framemaker, but it will probably suffice for this client if that's their
insistence. Scribus does text insets, but not conditional text. I had
planned that the document set would use both features, but if we really have
to use either Scribus or Writer, then conditional text is more important. We
can work around the text inset requirement.

Laurie



~
You also mentioned wanting an open source tool. As Peter said, there's no
open
source replacement for FrameMaker with all of its features. However, I think
that OpenOffice Writer is remarkably good and has many advanced features. It
does not have text inset features, but it does have conditional text and
variables, but not on par with FrameMaker. For basic PDF publishing of long
technical documents, OpenOffice Writer is far superior to Word and
comparable
with FrameMaker.


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RE: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[Rick Quatro]

Hello Framers,

I am going to chime in here regarding InDesign scripting. InDesign offers
several scripting options: AppleScript for the Mac version, Visual Basic for
the PC version, and JavaScript for both. Since these languages have other
applications, there are plenty of resources for learning them.

In my experience, however, performance can be a major issue. Well-written
JavaScript scripts can be painfully slow in InDesign, especially on long
documents. For most scripting tasks that I have tackled, a
FrameMaker/FrameScript workflow runs circles around a similar
InDesign/JavaScript workflow. If your documentation process can benefit from
automation, and you can do without InDesign's unique features, you are
usually better off staying with FrameMaker and FrameScript.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
r...@frameexpert.com
585-659-8267




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Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[Rick Quatro]

Hello Framers,

I am going to chime in here regarding InDesign scripting. InDesign offers
several scripting options: AppleScript for the Mac version, Visual Basic for
the PC version, and JavaScript for both. Since these languages have other
applications, there are plenty of resources for learning them.

In my experience, however, performance can be a major issue. Well-written
JavaScript scripts can be painfully slow in InDesign, especially on long
documents. For most scripting tasks that I have tackled, a
FrameMaker/FrameScript workflow runs circles around a similar
InDesign/JavaScript workflow. If your documentation process can benefit from
automation, and you can do without InDesign's unique features, you are
usually better off staying with FrameMaker and FrameScript.

Rick Quatro
Carmen Publishing Inc.
rick at frameexpert.com
585-659-8267

Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:49 AM, David Creamer
 wrote:

[snipped]

> ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
> panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.

One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry
for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries
second-level entries. For example,

Flora - first level
  green plants - second level
  grass - third level
  spinach - third level
  zucchini - third level

  yellow plants - second level
etc...

Fauna - first level
  two-legged - second level
 chickens - third level
 primates - third level

  four-legged - second level
 cats - third level
 dogs - third level
 zebras - third level

Then, cut and paste the sections of the generated index.

Also, enter a feature request for multiple indexes at

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[snipped]

> ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
> and does not have run-in heads.

in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads,
straddle heads, and run-in heads.

[snipped]

If your workflow needs multiple indexes and side, straddle, and run-in
paragraphs, FM is the simpler way to achieve them.

[snipped]

> Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
> table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
>condition features are similar.

[snipped]

I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a
script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to
the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the
cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The
style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to
their former size probably would need the script to create and refer
to user variables that store the original row height.

InDesign's highly customizable by scripting; there are many free ones,
and often participants on the Adobe InDesign scripting forum will whip
one up for free, if their interest is piqued and they have the time.
There are also folks who develop custom scripts. But, again, this is
more complicated than FM's approach. Once again, request the feature
at:

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Re: Frame vs. InDesign vs. alternatives??

[David Creamer]

>> ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
>> panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.
> 
> One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry
> for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries
> second-level entries. [snipped]
I've heard of that work-around, but did not mention it as I as making a
direct comparison between the programs.

>> ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
>> and does not have run-in heads.
> 
> in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads,
> straddle heads, and run-in heads.
Thank you for remembering in-tools--I should have mentioned them.
> 
>> Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
>> table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
>> condition features are similar.
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a
> script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to
> the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the
> cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The
> style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to
> their former size probably would need the script to create and refer
> to user variables that store the original row height.

Interesting idea--I wrote about a similar work-around for Layers Magazine a
while back for faking condition in-line text in CS3 (which could be done
without a script), but the script idea is interesting. I've been suggesting
to my clients that if possible, put all the unconditional content in a
separate table, then the conditional content is their own tables directly
following the unconditional. Then adjust the style settings to butt the
tables together.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer


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Frame vs. InDesign vs. alternatives??

[David Creamer]

>> ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
>> panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.
> 
> One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry
> for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries
> second-level entries. [snipped]
I've heard of that work-around, but did not mention it as I as making a
direct comparison between the programs.

>> ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
>> and does not have run-in heads.
> 
> in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads,
> straddle heads, and run-in heads.
Thank you for remembering in-tools--I should have mentioned them.
> 
>> Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
>> table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
>> condition features are similar.
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a
> script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to
> the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the
> cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The
> style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to
> their former size probably would need the script to create and refer
> to user variables that store the original row height.

Interesting idea--I wrote about a similar work-around for Layers Magazine a
while back for faking condition in-line text in CS3 (which could be done
without a script), but the script idea is interesting. I've been suggesting
to my clients that if possible, put all the unconditional content in a
separate table, then the conditional content is their own tables directly
following the unconditional. Then adjust the style settings to butt the
tables together.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer

Re: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 8:49 AM, David Creamer
 wrote:

[snipped]

> ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
> panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.

One suggested workaround is to create a unique dummy top-level entry
for each separate index, and make the real top-level entries
second-level entries. For example,

Flora - first level
  green plants - second level
  grass - third level
  spinach - third level
  zucchini - third level

  yellow plants - second level
etc...

Fauna - first level
  two-legged - second level
 chickens - third level
 primates - third level

  four-legged - second level
 cats - third level
 dogs - third level
 zebras - third level

Then, cut and paste the sections of the generated index.

Also, enter a feature request for multiple indexes at

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[snipped]

> ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
> and does not have run-in heads.

in-tools.com has some very smart InDesign plug-ins for side heads,
straddle heads, and run-in heads.

[snipped]

If your workflow needs multiple indexes and side, straddle, and run-in
paragraphs, FM is the simpler way to achieve them.

[snipped]

> Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
> table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
>condition features are similar.

[snipped]

I haven't seen this suggested, but it's probably possible to use a
script that searches for character, or paragraphl styles applied to
the content of all cells in a row, or , cell styles applied to the
cells in a row, and reduce their height to zero to hide them. The
style names should match the condition names. Restoring hidden rows to
their former size probably would need the script to create and refer
to user variables that store the original row height.

InDesign's highly customizable by scripting; there are many free ones,
and often participants on the Adobe InDesign scripting forum will whip
one up for free, if their interest is piqued and they have the time.
There are also folks who develop custom scripts. But, again, this is
more complicated than FM's approach. Once again, request the feature
at:

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Re: Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[David Creamer]

Generally, unless you are using heavy XML (InDesign does XML but not as
advanced) or DITA (which ID does not support), it is a heated race. If you
are doing advanced XML or DITA, then Frame is the way to go.

Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
condition features are similar.

ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.

ID supports advanced OpenType formatting (and OT fonts are cross-platform,
so you could use ID on Windows).

Other notes...

As mentioned, ID is more sophisticated in the typography and layout
departments. 

ID has GREP find/change, GREP supported formatting, nested styles.

ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
and does not have run-in heads.

InDesign's table styles are more complicated, but more advanced above
Frame's. ID is more advanced when importing Excel files, plus ID can link to
Excel files for auto-updates. ID's table styles do not contain any geometry
(size) information, but there is a plug-in available for that, and to not
generate automatic table titles as part of the table style.

Frame's variables are slightly more advanced, especially when concerning
using character styles. (ID does not have the table continuation variable)

InDesign has a separate product called InCopy for allowing others to edit
text while the InDesign file is being worked on. (InDesign can handle all
the text edits too.) InCopy can be used to generate new text, as can Word.

InDesign's PDF export functions are more advanced. (Current versions of CS3
and CS4 do not have a size issue with PDFs.)

This is not a complete comparison by any means, but should be enough (with
the other posts) to form an opinion.

There is a converter for MIF files to ID at:


Although I have not updated it to Frame 9 and IDCS4 (my bad), I have a
comparison chart at:


As a Mac user (and certified Apple Consultant), I would take a hard look at
using ID on Windows with OT fonts to keep the client happy. That being said,
I use Frame with Boot Camp and Parallels all the time. As long as the client
has a reasonably fast computer with 4-8 GB RAM, they should be fine.

If I didn't address any specific issue, please let me know.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer


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Frame vs InDesign vs. alternatives??

[David Creamer]

Generally, unless you are using heavy XML (InDesign does XML but not as
advanced) or DITA (which ID does not support), it is a heated race. If you
are doing advanced XML or DITA, then Frame is the way to go.

Frame's conditions are slightly more advanced in that they can be applied to
table rows; ID's conditions can only be applied to the entire table. Other
condition features are similar.

ID's Indexing is slightly easier with use of it's topic list in the Index
panel, but I believe that ID only allows one index per book.

ID supports advanced OpenType formatting (and OT fonts are cross-platform,
so you could use ID on Windows).

Other notes...

As mentioned, ID is more sophisticated in the typography and layout
departments. 

ID has GREP find/change, GREP supported formatting, nested styles.

ID cannot span columns with subheads if working with a multi-column layouts,
and does not have run-in heads.

InDesign's table styles are more complicated, but more advanced above
Frame's. ID is more advanced when importing Excel files, plus ID can link to
Excel files for auto-updates. ID's table styles do not contain any geometry
(size) information, but there is a plug-in available for that, and to not
generate automatic table titles as part of the table style.

Frame's variables are slightly more advanced, especially when concerning
using character styles. (ID does not have the table continuation variable)

InDesign has a separate product called InCopy for allowing others to edit
text while the InDesign file is being worked on. (InDesign can handle all
the text edits too.) InCopy can be used to generate new text, as can Word.

InDesign's PDF export functions are more advanced. (Current versions of CS3
and CS4 do not have a size issue with PDFs.)

This is not a complete comparison by any means, but should be enough (with
the other posts) to form an opinion.

There is a converter for MIF files to ID at:


Although I have not updated it to Frame 9 and IDCS4 (my bad), I have a
comparison chart at:


As a Mac user (and certified Apple Consultant), I would take a hard look at
using ID on Windows with OT fonts to keep the client happy. That being said,
I use Frame with Boot Camp and Parallels all the time. As long as the client
has a reasonably fast computer with 4-8 GB RAM, they should be fine.

If I didn't address any specific issue, please let me know.

David Creamer
IDEAS Training & Consultation
http://www.IDEAStraining.com
Adobe Certified Trainer for Photoshop, Illustrator, Acrobat, InDesign,
InCopy, FrameMaker, Dreamweaver, Premiere, GoLive, and PageMaker
Authorized Quark Training Provider
Enfocus PitStop, Markzware FlightCheck, & FileMaker Authorized Trainer

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

I've added a few notes to Jared's comments.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jared Crawford  wrote:
>
> Hi, Laurie.
>
>> since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc.
>
> It sounds like you have existing content in FrameMaker format, which is not a 
> deal breaker but it does take time to put such content into InDesign files.
>
> If you want to talk your client out of using InDesign, you should probably 
> point to the effort needed to convert the existing content and InDesign's 
> learning curve.

Depending on the existing layouts, MIF Filter, a dtptools.com ID
plug-in, may solve the conversion issues with varying degrees of fuss
and attention. You can download and use it as much as you like, to
evaluate its conversions for your needs; it's not time-limited, nor
crippled in conversion features. However, to save, print, export to
PDF, or otherwise use the converted ID files, you need to buy page
credits. The more credits you buy at one time, the less the unit cost,
like phone minutes. There's also a free FM-to-MIF batch conversion
tool that's not crippled or limited in any way. In my InDesign
Magazine review of MIF Filter, I gave it high marks for accurately
converting unfancy well-constructed FM documents. However, some FM
features have no exact ID counterparts; for example, run-in paragraphs
and side headings. These are converted with whatever fudging is
necessary to visually match the FM layouts. If editing the converted
documents causes text to reflow, you may need to give individual
attention to these simulated FM features.

> Template design is non-trivial. If you have an existing FrameMaker template, 
> it could save a lot of time to just continue using it.

One affordable conversion strategy might be to purchase enough page
credits to convert the FM template(s) with MIF Filter, and work it
(them) into shape. You can save FM content as RTF, or convert it to
RTF with MIF2GO, and place the RTF into your customized ID version of
the FM template(s).

>
> I am a technical writer and used FrameMaker for about ten years before my 
> current position, where I use InDesign CS3. Based on my experience with both 
> tools and what I've read about InDesign CS4, I agree with Peter and Art's 
> perspective.

HTH

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

I've added a few notes to Jared's comments.

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:26 PM, Jared Crawford  wrote:
>
> Hi, Laurie.
>
>> since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc.
>
> It sounds like you have existing content in FrameMaker format, which is not a 
> deal breaker but it does take time to put such content into InDesign files.
>
> If you want to talk your client out of using InDesign, you should probably 
> point to the effort needed to convert the existing content and InDesign's 
> learning curve.

Depending on the existing layouts, MIF Filter, a dtptools.com ID
plug-in, may solve the conversion issues with varying degrees of fuss
and attention. You can download and use it as much as you like, to
evaluate its conversions for your needs; it's not time-limited, nor
crippled in conversion features. However, to save, print, export to
PDF, or otherwise use the converted ID files, you need to buy page
credits. The more credits you buy at one time, the less the unit cost,
like phone minutes. There's also a free FM-to-MIF batch conversion
tool that's not crippled or limited in any way. In my InDesign
Magazine review of MIF Filter, I gave it high marks for accurately
converting unfancy well-constructed FM documents. However, some FM
features have no exact ID counterparts; for example, run-in paragraphs
and side headings. These are converted with whatever fudging is
necessary to visually match the FM layouts. If editing the converted
documents causes text to reflow, you may need to give individual
attention to these simulated FM features.

> Template design is non-trivial. If you have an existing FrameMaker template, 
> it could save a lot of time to just continue using it.

One affordable conversion strategy might be to purchase enough page
credits to convert the FM template(s) with MIF Filter, and work it
(them) into shape. You can save FM content as RTF, or convert it to
RTF with MIF2GO, and place the RTF into your customized ID version of
the FM template(s).

>
> I am a technical writer and used FrameMaker for about ten years before my 
> current position, where I use InDesign CS3. Based on my experience with both 
> tools and what I've read about InDesign CS4, I agree with Peter and Art's 
> perspective.

HTH

Regards,

Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
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Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Jared Crawford]

Hi, Laurie.

> since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc.

It sounds like you have existing content in FrameMaker format, which is not a 
deal breaker but it does take time to put such content into InDesign files. 

If you want to talk your client out of using InDesign, you should probably 
point to the effort needed to convert the existing content and InDesign's 
learning curve. Template design is non-trivial. If you have an existing 
FrameMaker template, it could save a lot of time to just continue using it.

I am a technical writer and used FrameMaker for about ten years before my 
current position, where I use InDesign CS3. Based on my experience with both 
tools and what I've read about InDesign CS4, I agree with Peter and Art's 
perspective.

I had my choice of tools when I started this job. I decided to buy Adobe 
Creative Suite Design Standard which comes with InDesign CS3because the 
Marketing and Design departments were using it and we only need to produce 
PDFs. Creative Suite comes with Illustrator, Photoshop, and Acrobat 
Professional, which I knew would be useful because we make hardware as well as 
software. There was no requirement to develop a help system.

My experience with InDesign has been positive, but I'd caution anyone against 
it if producing written content is your primary objective. I've found InDesign 
to be a very powerful page layout tool with graphics capabilities that are far 
superior to those of FrameMaker. I can make InDesign do anything I need it to 
do, but it is not a text production tool in the way that FrameMaker is. 
InDesign output tends to be beautiful compared to FrameMaker, but it somehow 
seems to take longer write because I'm always fussing with InDesign's features. 
FrameMaker is more of a text editor with a few very useful features, such as 
conditional text. I was never fully satisfied with FrameMaker's graphics 
output, but it is so reliable and easy to use by comparison to InDesign that 
sometimes I miss it.

I've recently found a need to provide a web-based front end for a large set of 
documents. Producing it would be easy in FrameMaker because of its integration 
with WebWorks or RoboHelp. I could make InDesign do it via XML or its limited 
web output features, but it hardly seems worth the effort.

Another serious limitation with InDesign is that PDF file sizes tend to be huge 
for large books (30 MB is not uncommon). That's fine if you're sending them to 
a printer, but not for users who just want to get at some information. It takes 
a while to learn techniques for reducing the resolution of some images.

You asked specifically about conditions, variables, and text insets, which 
FrameMaker handles very well. You can supposedly do the first two with InDesign 
CS4. If text insets are a deal breaker, then stick with FrameMaker.

You also mentioned wanting an open source tool. As Peter said, there's no open 
source replacement for FrameMaker with all of its features. However, I think 
that OpenOffice Writer is remarkably good and has many advanced features. It 
does not have text inset features, but it does have conditional text and 
variables, but not on par with FrameMaker. For basic PDF publishing of long 
technical documents, OpenOffice Writer is far superior to Word and comparable 
with FrameMaker.

If your client ends up using InDesign, have fun. It will be an opportunity to 
learn a useful tool.

Cheers,

--Jared

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:16:30 -0400
From: "Laurie Little" 
Subject: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
To: "Framers list \(E-mail\)" 
Message-ID: <11b0bda4edb8469983c5b258d7c9c...@wordstw.com>

"Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!I need to recommend a tool for a client who 
works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and 
Indesign for Mac (major functional
requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, 
since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but 
the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to 
present.Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
>From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.Just to round out our 
proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
(which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
(Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
Indesign?Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
___

Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Alan Barber]

> so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
> 
One important difference between InDesign and Frame has not been mentioned: 
InDesign takes typography seriously. If you're doing design for print, a large 
book in my case, this matters. Before CS4's introduction of cross-references 
(for end notes) InDesign was not a viable choice. 

Typography examples:

1. Frame scales down small caps, superscripts, and subscripts, even if the font 
contains carefully designed glyphs for these. They look cheesy. I couldn't find 
a way in Frame (v.8) to use the font glyphs without individually typing in code 
or copy-pasting from the Character Designer. InDesign lets you set a preference 
for which to use.

2. Same as 1 for ligatures. With InDesign you can automatically set every 
ligature the font contains, or only the common ones. Spell check continues to 
work even with ligatures displayed.

3. I'm yet to see InDesign set a footnote on the wrong page.

4. The hyphenation-justification engine for InDesign is more sophisticated than 
Frame's (and both are far superior to Word's) but the difference is too subtle 
for me to get excited about.

One more thing--I've never seen any angst among the user community for InDesign 
about Adobe's continuing commitment to the product.

Alan Barber
___


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Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Greg. Eckrich]

Hi Laurie,

Not a heavy duty FM user; however, run FM 7 under Parallels w/XP on a  
MACBook Pro.
Typed and edited a 300+ page book for a friend recently.  No complaints.

Gregory Eckrich,
708-862-7180
gweckr...@wowway.com



On 5-May - 2009, at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little wrote:

> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's  
> between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major  
> functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be  
> converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing  
> some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open- 
> source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have  
> all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I  
> need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
>> From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc.,  
>> Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate  
> any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do  
> conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than  
> Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as gweckr...@wowway.com.
>
> Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/ 
> gweckrich%40wowway.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

___


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Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Jared Crawford]

Hi, Laurie.

> since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc.

It sounds like you have existing content in FrameMaker format, which is not a 
deal breaker but it does take time to put such content into InDesign files. 

If you want to talk your client out of using InDesign, you should probably 
point to the effort needed to convert the existing content and InDesign's 
learning curve. Template design is non-trivial. If you have an existing 
FrameMaker template, it could save a lot of time to just continue using it.

I am a technical writer and used FrameMaker for about ten years before my 
current position, where I use InDesign CS3. Based on my experience with both 
tools and what I've read about InDesign CS4, I agree with Peter and Art's 
perspective.

I had my choice of tools when I started this job. I decided to buy Adobe 
Creative Suite Design Standard which comes with InDesign CS3because the 
Marketing and Design departments were using it and we only need to produce 
PDFs. Creative Suite comes with Illustrator, Photoshop, and Acrobat 
Professional, which I knew would be useful because we make hardware as well as 
software. There was no requirement to develop a help system.

My experience with InDesign has been positive, but I'd caution anyone against 
it if producing written content is your primary objective. I've found InDesign 
to be a very powerful page layout tool with graphics capabilities that are far 
superior to those of FrameMaker. I can make InDesign do anything I need it to 
do, but it is not a text production tool in the way that FrameMaker is. 
InDesign output tends to be beautiful compared to FrameMaker, but it somehow 
seems to take longer write because I'm always fussing with InDesign's features. 
FrameMaker is more of a text editor with a few very useful features, such as 
conditional text. I was never fully satisfied with FrameMaker's graphics 
output, but it is so reliable and easy to use by comparison to InDesign that 
sometimes I miss it.

I've recently found a need to provide a web-based front end for a large set of 
documents. Producing it would be easy in FrameMaker because of its integration 
with WebWorks or RoboHelp. I could make InDesign do it via XML or its limited 
web output features, but it hardly seems worth the effort.

Another serious limitation with InDesign is that PDF file sizes tend to be huge 
for large books (30 MB is not uncommon). That's fine if you're sending them to 
a printer, but not for users who just want to get at some information. It takes 
a while to learn techniques for reducing the resolution of some images.

You asked specifically about conditions, variables, and text insets, which 
FrameMaker handles very well. You can supposedly do the first two with InDesign 
CS4. If text insets are a deal breaker, then stick with FrameMaker.

You also mentioned wanting an open source tool. As Peter said, there's no open 
source replacement for FrameMaker with all of its features. However, I think 
that OpenOffice Writer is remarkably good and has many advanced features. It 
does not have text inset features, but it does have conditional text and 
variables, but not on par with FrameMaker. For basic PDF publishing of long 
technical documents, OpenOffice Writer is far superior to Word and comparable 
with FrameMaker.

If your client ends up using InDesign, have fun. It will be an opportunity to 
learn a useful tool.

Cheers,

--Jared

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:16:30 -0400
From: "Laurie Little" 
Subject: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
To: "Framers list \(E-mail\)" 
Message-ID: <11B0BDA4EDB8469983C5B258D7C9CED3 at wordstw.com>

"Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!I need to recommend a tool for a client who 
works on Mac, and it's between FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and 
Indesign for Mac (major functional
requirements are conditions/variables/text insets). We're pushing for Frame, 
since we're the ones who will be converting the old docs/maintaining etc., but 
the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info to 
present.Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
assemble a good argument for not using it? :-D
>From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.Just to round out our 
proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
(which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
(Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
Indesign?Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Alan Barber]

> so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
> 
One important difference between InDesign and Frame has not been mentioned: 
InDesign takes typography seriously. If you're doing design for print, a large 
book in my case, this matters. Before CS4's introduction of cross-references 
(for end notes) InDesign was not a viable choice. 

Typography examples:

1. Frame scales down small caps, superscripts, and subscripts, even if the font 
contains carefully designed glyphs for these. They look cheesy. I couldn't find 
a way in Frame (v.8) to use the font glyphs without individually typing in code 
or copy-pasting from the Character Designer. InDesign lets you set a preference 
for which to use.

2. Same as 1 for ligatures. With InDesign you can automatically set every 
ligature the font contains, or only the common ones. Spell check continues to 
work even with ligatures displayed.

3. I'm yet to see InDesign set a footnote on the wrong page.

4. The hyphenation-justification engine for InDesign is more sophisticated than 
Frame's (and both are far superior to Word's) but the difference is too subtle 
for me to get excited about.

One more thing--I've never seen any angst among the user community for InDesign 
about Adobe's continuing commitment to the product.

Alan Barber

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

I totally agree with you Art - I'm just concerned that the client is
focussing more on the platform than the right tool, and to avoid having him
pick Indesign just because it runs native on the Mac and it *can* do
conditional text etc.  So all the points everyone is raising is adding to my
arsenal  :-D

Of course, if the client will be using Indesign for other layout-driven
purposes (brochures etc.) that we will not be involved in, then yes it makes
more sense for them to choose the single tool that will address all their
needs. They are not big enough and don't do enough documentation to warrant
having both tools.

Laurie


-Original Message-
From: Art Campbell [mailto:art.campb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:47 PM
To: Laurie Little
Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??


Laurie,
I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two
programs -- what they're designed to do.

* FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is
driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where
documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats.

* InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work
better in an environment where many pages use, or require,
design-driven manual tweaking.

I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the
most important consideration is the type of content and the
requirements of the end-user.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable.
>
> So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user
documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
> - "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a
choice use Frame"
> or
> - "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native)
platform you prefer"
> ?
>
> If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
> Laurie
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: knowhowpro at gmail.com [mailto:knowhowpro at gmail.com]On Behalf Of
> Peter Gold
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
> To: Laurie Little
> Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
>
>
> Hi, Laurie:
>
> I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
> for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
> kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
> closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
> between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
> FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.
>
> Briefly:
>
> * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.
>
> * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
> generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's variables compare well to FM's.
>
> * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
> ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.
>
> * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
> winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
> However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
> conversion to work with a help-creation tool.
>
> * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
> same level as FM's structured authoring features.
>
> On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
> Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
> application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
> keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
> switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
> Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
> concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
> and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
> keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
> on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
> to set up for sharing files, and, agai

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Art Campbell]

Laurie,
I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two
programs -- what they're designed to do.

* FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is
driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where
documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats.

* InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work
better in an environment where many pages use, or require,
design-driven manual tweaking.

I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the
most important consideration is the type of content and the
requirements of the end-user.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campbell at gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable.
>
> So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user 
> documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
> - "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a 
> choice use Frame"
> or
> - "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform 
> you prefer"
> ?
>
> If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
> Laurie
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: knowhowpro at gmail.com [mailto:knowhowpro at gmail.com]On Behalf Of
> Peter Gold
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
> To: Laurie Little
> Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
>
>
> Hi, Laurie:
>
> I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
> for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
> kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
> closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
> between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
> FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.
>
> Briefly:
>
> * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.
>
> * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
> generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's variables compare well to FM's.
>
> * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
> ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.
>
> * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
> winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
> However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
> conversion to work with a help-creation tool.
>
> * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
> same level as FM's structured authoring features.
>
> On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
> Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
> application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
> keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
> switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
> Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
> concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
> and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
> keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
> on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
> to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
> Windows without a restart.
>
> If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
> features and reliability, we'd all know about it.
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
> __
> Peter Gold
> KnowHow ProServices
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  
> wrote:
>> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>>
>> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
>> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
>> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>>
>> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
>> docs/maintaining etc., but the 

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Dan:

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Dan Harding  wrote:
> I have used both FM and ID, but despite their feature set similarities,
> there is one monumental difference:
>
> With FM, every single command and every single action has a keyboard
> equivalent. Not so with InDesign.

With all respect, ID for a number of releases has had customizable
keyboard shortcuts. It ships with a QuarkXpress and PageMaker
shortcut, as well as a default set of its own.

The Quick Apply feature in ID CS3 and CS4 opens with the shortcut
Ctrl/Cmd+Enter/Return, and displays a scrollable/typing-sensitive list
with almost EVERY command on EVERY menu, and some that aren't on any
menu. Unlike FM's typing sensitivity that selects commands whose
initial characters you type, Quick Apply selects commands that contain
your typed characters anywhere within the command name, so you don't
have to type all the characters from the main menu's name through sub
menus until you reach the command.

You can define your own set of ID keyboard shortcuts that are close to
the FM mnemonics, if you like, as well as use Quick Apply to navigate
its list, to work from the KB in ID as efficiently as in FM. The main
difference is that if you create shortcuts similar to FM's, you won't
have to learn ID's command names where they differ from FM.

> When it comes to document construction, I'm a keyboard junkie. I *hate*
> using the mouse; it gets in my way. Since I know all the keyboard shortcuts
> in FM, I can fly like nobody's business.

ID offers multiple windows on the same document, including a
text-based story editor window that synchronizes its selection to the
WYSIWIG window, so you can cut, copy, paste, and move content from a
source visible from a visible window to a destination in another
visible window, and, yes, you can do it all mouselessly.

You might want to give ID another look.

>
> (Another reason I'm avoiding upgrading to 9.)
>
> FM really is unique in that respect...

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable. 

So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user 
documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
- "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a choice 
use Frame"
or
- "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform you 
prefer"
?

If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
Laurie


-Original Message-
From: knowhowpro at gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]On Behalf Of
Peter Gold
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
To: Laurie Little
Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??


Hi, Laurie:

I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.

Briefly:

* ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.

* ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.

* ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.

* ID's variables compare well to FM's.

* There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.

* If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
conversion to work with a help-creation tool.

* ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
same level as FM's structured authoring features.

On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
Windows without a restart.

If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
features and reliability, we'd all know about it.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
> >From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!

I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).

We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
to present.

Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
>From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.

Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
(which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
(Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
Indesign?

Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,


Laurie Little
Words That Work
www.words-tw.com
905-947-1557

Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Laurie:

I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.

Briefly:

* ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.

* ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.

* ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.

* ID's variables compare well to FM's.

* There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.

* If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
conversion to work with a help-creation tool.

* ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
same level as FM's structured authoring features.

On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
Windows without a restart.

If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
features and reliability, we'd all know about it.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it ?:-D
> >From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>

Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Dan:

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Dan Harding  wrote:
> I have used both FM and ID, but despite their feature set similarities,
> there is one monumental difference:
>
> With FM, every single command and every single action has a keyboard
> equivalent. Not so with InDesign.

With all respect, ID for a number of releases has had customizable
keyboard shortcuts. It ships with a QuarkXpress and PageMaker
shortcut, as well as a default set of its own.

The Quick Apply feature in ID CS3 and CS4 opens with the shortcut
Ctrl/Cmd+Enter/Return, and displays a scrollable/typing-sensitive list
with almost EVERY command on EVERY menu, and some that aren't on any
menu. Unlike FM's typing sensitivity that selects commands whose
initial characters you type, Quick Apply selects commands that contain
your typed characters anywhere within the command name, so you don't
have to type all the characters from the main menu's name through sub
menus until you reach the command.

You can define your own set of ID keyboard shortcuts that are close to
the FM mnemonics, if you like, as well as use Quick Apply to navigate
its list, to work from the KB in ID as efficiently as in FM. The main
difference is that if you create shortcuts similar to FM's, you won't
have to learn ID's command names where they differ from FM.

> When it comes to document construction, I'm a keyboard junkie. I *hate*
> using the mouse; it gets in my way. Since I know all the keyboard shortcuts
> in FM, I can fly like nobody's business.

ID offers multiple windows on the same document, including a
text-based story editor window that synchronizes its selection to the
WYSIWIG window, so you can cut, copy, paste, and move content from a
source visible from a visible window to a destination in another
visible window, and, yes, you can do it all mouselessly.

You might want to give ID another look.

>
> (Another reason I'm avoiding upgrading to 9.)
>
> FM really is unique in that respect...

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices
___


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Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Greg. Eckrich]

Hi Laurie,

Not a heavy duty FM user; however, run FM 7 under Parallels w/XP on a  
MACBook Pro.
Typed and edited a 300+ page book for a friend recently.  No complaints.

Gregory Eckrich,
708-862-7180
GWEckrich at wowway.com



On 5-May - 2009, at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little wrote:

> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's  
> between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major  
> functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be  
> converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing  
> some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open- 
> source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have  
> all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I  
> need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
>> From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc.,  
>> Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate  
> any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do  
> conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than  
> Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as GWEckrich at wowway.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/ 
> gweckrich%40wowway.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.

RE: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

I totally agree with you Art - I'm just concerned that the client is
focussing more on the platform than the right tool, and to avoid having him
pick Indesign just because it runs native on the Mac and it *can* do
conditional text etc.  So all the points everyone is raising is adding to my
arsenal  :-D

Of course, if the client will be using Indesign for other layout-driven
purposes (brochures etc.) that we will not be involved in, then yes it makes
more sense for them to choose the single tool that will address all their
needs. They are not big enough and don't do enough documentation to warrant
having both tools.

Laurie


-Original Message-
From: Art Campbell [mailto:art.campb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:47 PM
To: Laurie Little
Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??


Laurie,
I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two
programs -- what they're designed to do.

* FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is
driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where
documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats.

* InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work
better in an environment where many pages use, or require,
design-driven manual tweaking.

I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the
most important consideration is the type of content and the
requirements of the end-user.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable.
>
> So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user
documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
> - "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a
choice use Frame"
> or
> - "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native)
platform you prefer"
> ?
>
> If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
> Laurie
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of
> Peter Gold
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
> To: Laurie Little
> Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
>
>
> Hi, Laurie:
>
> I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
> for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
> kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
> closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
> between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
> FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.
>
> Briefly:
>
> * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.
>
> * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
> generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's variables compare well to FM's.
>
> * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
> ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.
>
> * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
> winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
> However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
> conversion to work with a help-creation tool.
>
> * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
> same level as FM's structured authoring features.
>
> On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
> Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
> application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
> keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
> switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
> Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
> concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
> and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
> keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
> on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
> to set up for sharing files, and, again, can

Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Art Campbell]

Laurie,
I think you're overlooking the primary difference between the two
programs -- what they're designed to do.

* FM excels at long-document management, projects where most layout is
driven by a finite set of templates, and situations where
documentation is single-sourced to multiple output formats.

* InDesign is Adobe's Pagemaker replacement and is designed to work
better in an environment where many pages use, or require,
design-driven manual tweaking.

I've used both, and each has a place in a writer's toolbox, but the
most important consideration is the type of content and the
requirements of the end-user.

Art

Art Campbell
   art.campb...@gmail.com
  "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52
Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
  No disclaimers apply.
   DoD 358



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable.
>
> So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user 
> documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
> - "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a 
> choice use Frame"
> or
> - "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform 
> you prefer"
> ?
>
> If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
> Laurie
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of
> Peter Gold
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
> To: Laurie Little
> Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
> Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??
>
>
> Hi, Laurie:
>
> I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
> for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
> kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
> closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
> between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
> FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.
>
> Briefly:
>
> * ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.
>
> * ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
> generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.
>
> * ID's variables compare well to FM's.
>
> * There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
> ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.
>
> * If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
> winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
> However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
> conversion to work with a help-creation tool.
>
> * ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
> same level as FM's structured authoring features.
>
> On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
> Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
> application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
> keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
> switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
> Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
> concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
> and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
> keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
> on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
> to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
> Windows without a restart.
>
> If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
> features and reliability, we'd all know about it.
>
> HTH
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
> __
> Peter Gold
> KnowHow ProServices
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  wrote:
>> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>>
>> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
>> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
>> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>>
>> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
>> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thi

RE: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Thanks so much Peter, this kind of comparison is invaluable. 

So why would one choose one over the other when they can both handle user 
documentation (apart from any need to convert to help)? Is it a case of:
- "If you only have Indesign, it can do what you need, but if you have a choice 
use Frame"
or
- "Use whichever GUI you're comfortable with or whichever (native) platform you 
prefer"
?

If they choose Indesign, I hope your book is ready in time for me to buy!
Laurie


-Original Message-
From: knowhow...@gmail.com [mailto:knowhow...@gmail.com]on Behalf Of
Peter Gold
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:41 PM
To: Laurie Little
Cc: Framers list (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??


Hi, Laurie:

I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.

Briefly:

* ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.

* ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.

* ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.

* ID's variables compare well to FM's.

* There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.

* If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
conversion to work with a help-creation tool.

* ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
same level as FM's structured authoring features.

On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
Windows without a restart.

If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
features and reliability, we'd all know about it.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
> >From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>


___


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Re: Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Peter Gold]

Hi, Laurie:

I'm an Adobe ACE for FrameMaker and InDesign, and I'm writing a book
for FrameMaker users who want to learn to use InDesign for the same
kind of long and complex technical publications. So, I've been looking
closely at the similarities, differences, workarounds, and tradeoffs
between the products, as well as the issues of cross-training both
FrameMaker and InDesign users to the opposite product.

Briefly:

* ID's conditional text (new in CS4) compares well to FM's.

* ID's cross-references (new in CS4) compare well to FM's.

* ID's numbered lists (significantly improved in CS4) , books, and
generated lists and indexes compare well to FM's.

* ID's variables compare well to FM's.

* There's no exact counterpart for FM's text insets in ID, though ID's
ability to import ID files may suffice in some situations.

* If any kind of help system is a requirement, or will be, FM is the
winner here; ID currently has nothing so closely matched as Robohelp.
However, ID's XML and tagged text could be enlisted for some kind of
conversion to work with a help-creation tool.

* ID's XML isn't up to FM's. ID'a structure features are not on the
same level as FM's structured authoring features.

On my new Mac-Intel MacBook Pro, I've started using FM 9.x under
Windows 7 public beta release candidate with VMware's Fusion 2
application. So far, it's the FM I've always known, and it's only a
keystroke or two to move between Mac OS X and Windows 7, just like
switching between applications on standard Mac or Windows. BootCamp
Requires a separate partition and can't switch between
concurrently-running OS X and Windows - you need to restart. Parallels
and Fusion don't have this limitation. Fusion and Parallels can easily
keep Mac and Windows files on a single file system, so any application
on either OS can work with any file it recognizes. BootCamp is harder
to set up for sharing files, and, again, can't switch between OS X and
Windows without a restart.

If there was an open-source replacement for FM, with all of its
features and reliability, we'd all know about it.

HTH

Regards,

Peter
__
Peter Gold
KnowHow ProServices



On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:16 AM, Laurie Little  wrote:
> Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!
>
> I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
> FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
> requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).
>
> We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
> docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
> maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
> solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
> to present.
>
> Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
> assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
> >From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
> the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.
>
> Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
> alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
> (which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
> (Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
> Indesign?
>
> Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,
>
> 
> Laurie Little
> Words That Work
> www.words-tw.com
> 905-947-1557
>
>
___


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Frame vs Indesign vs alternatives??

[Laurie Little]

Hello from beautiful sunny Toronto!

I need to recommend a tool for a client who works on Mac, and it's between
FM (via Bootcamp/Parallels/whatever) and Indesign for Mac (major functional
requirements are conditions/variables/text insets).

We're pushing for Frame, since we're the ones who will be converting the old
docs/maintaining etc., but the client (thinks he) will be doing some minor
maintenance and therefore prefers a Mac (and preferably an open-source)
solution if one can be found, so my boss wants to make sure we have all info
to present.

Since Indesign CS4 *can* do conditional text/xrefs/variables, I need to
assemble a good argument for not using it  :-D
>From what I've read in various forums (fora?) and blogs etc., Frame is still
the preferred tool for user docs, regardless of platform.

Just to round out our proposal though, I need to include/eliminate any other
alternatives. The ones I have looked at don't seem to do conditional text
(which would be critical to this project). Does anyone know of another
(Mac/open source) tool that handles conditional text, other than Frame and
Indesign?

Thanks for any advice/warnings/tips/rants/etc,


Laurie Little
Words That Work
www.words-tw.com
905-947-1557


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