Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Art Campbell]

ABOUT THE PROBLEM:
The other thing that's easy to do is to add documentation to each message. ;- )

For instance, my Mailman and Google lists have a line above the
message text that says:
Remember to ReplyAll to continue the thread because Reply is set to
go to the author. Works both ways though, and it works most of the
time.

ABOUT THE LIST:
I believe Brad started and owned the frameusers.com site and list;
then sold out/merged into the company that publishes the techwriter
site and list. SInce then, framerusers has sort of been in an
autopilot / benign neglect state. While it still carries decent
traffic, I think the Adobe FM users forumn actually has as much info.
And the free-framers list hosted by Omsys tends to have lower traffic
but more technical / tougher problems and solutions.

Art

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Matt Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lisa Bronson is now Lisa Gielczyk (like SpellCheck, as she says)

 Or so says the business card she handed me last summer. Which is the only
 way I would have been able to get the spelling right.

 I don't believe she still has a hand in moderation.

 Sent via reply to all with little effort, but great anxiety about the
 political and usability ramifications.

 -Matt Sullivan



 GRAFIX Training, Inc.

 An Adobe Authorized Training Center

 www.grafixtraining.com

 888 882-2819

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Findon
 Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:13 AM
 To: Framers
 Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe:
 defaultreply-to-all ]

 On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:

 Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that
 we can settle
 this the democratic way?

 I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it
 was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for
 awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes
 because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.

 A poll sounds good.

 Lisa, Brad, Anyone?

 Paul
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 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 m

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-- 
Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl. -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358
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Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Bill Swallow]

Or - and this may just me thinking crazy again - pay attention when
replying to a list message.

Seriously folks, this is getting silly. I'm on more mailing lists than
I can count on my fingers and toes, and they don't all behave the
same. Exercising 2 seconds worth of discipline to figure out where
your message is going isn't a hardship.

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 ABOUT THE PROBLEM:
 The other thing that's easy to do is to add documentation to each message. ;- 
 )

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
STC Single-Sourcing SIG Manager
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Art Campbell]

ABOUT THE PROBLEM:
The other thing that's easy to do is to add documentation to each message. ;- )

For instance, my Mailman and Google lists have a line above the
message text that says:
"Remember to ReplyAll to continue the thread" because Reply is set to
go to the author. Works both ways though, and it works most of the
time.

ABOUT THE LIST:
I believe Brad started and owned the frameusers.com site and list;
then sold out/merged into the company that publishes the techwriter
site and list. SInce then, framerusers has sort of been in an
autopilot / benign neglect state. While it still carries decent
traffic, I think the Adobe FM users forumn actually has as much info.
And the free-framers list hosted by Omsys tends to have lower traffic
but more technical / tougher problems and solutions.

Art

On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Matt Sullivan  
wrote:
> Lisa Bronson is now Lisa Gielczyk (like "SpellCheck, as she says)
>
> Or so says the business card she handed me last summer. Which is the only
> way I would have been able to get the spelling right.
>
> I don't believe she still has a hand in moderation.
>
> Sent via "reply to all" with little effort, but great anxiety about the
> political and usability ramifications.
>
> -Matt Sullivan
>
>
>
> GRAFIX Training, Inc.
>
> An Adobe Authorized Training Center
>
> www.grafixtraining.com
>
> 888 882-2819
>
> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
> [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Paul Findon
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:13 AM
> To: Framers
> Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re:
> default"reply-to-all" "]
>
> On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:
>
>>> Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that
>>> we can settle
>> this the democratic way?
>
> I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it
> was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for
> awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes
> because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.
>
> A poll sounds good.
>
> Lisa, Brad, Anyone?
>
> Paul
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as matt at grafixtraining.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/matt%40grafixtraining.co
> m
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>
> ___
>
>
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com.
>
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
>
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit 
> http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com
>
> Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit
> http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
>



-- 
Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com
 "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent
and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson
 No disclaimers apply.
 DoD 358

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Bill Swallow]

Or - and this may just me thinking crazy again - pay attention when
replying to a list message.

Seriously folks, this is getting silly. I'm on more mailing lists than
I can count on my fingers and toes, and they don't all behave the
same. Exercising 2 seconds worth of discipline to figure out where
your message is going isn't a hardship.

On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Art Campbell  wrote:
> ABOUT THE PROBLEM:
> The other thing that's easy to do is to add documentation to each message. ;- 
> )

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
STC Single-Sourcing SIG Manager
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Combs, Richard]

Mike Bradley wrote:
 
 Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm
 religious
 about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I
 reply gets
 two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the
 Internet
 traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message.
 Sometimes, as
 with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic, because there
were
 3 cc's
 on the posting.
 
 Personally, I find getting duplicate replies annoying and I think
sending
 them
 is rude, but if everyone who posts messages doesn't mind getting
duplicate
 replies, so be it.

You can avoid getting those duplicates by changing your list membership
settings. Log into your mailing list account using the personalized URL
at the bottom of list messages to you. Scroll down to the gray table of
list options. The last option is: 

Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list
message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing list.
Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the mailing list; select No to
receive copies.

Set this to Yes and click Submit My Changes. 

HTH!
Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--





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Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Paul Findon]

On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:

 Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that  
 we can settle
 this the democratic way?

I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it  
was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for  
awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes  
because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.

A poll sounds good.

Lisa, Brad, Anyone?

Paul
___


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Matt Sullivan]

Lisa Bronson is now Lisa Gielczyk (like SpellCheck, as she says)

Or so says the business card she handed me last summer. Which is the only
way I would have been able to get the spelling right.

I don't believe she still has a hand in moderation.

Sent via reply to all with little effort, but great anxiety about the
political and usability ramifications. 

-Matt Sullivan

 

GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Findon
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:13 AM
To: Framers
Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe:
defaultreply-to-all ]

On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:

 Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that  
 we can settle
 this the democratic way?

I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it  
was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for  
awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes  
because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.

A poll sounds good.

Lisa, Brad, Anyone?

Paul
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Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To unsubscribe send a blank email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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m

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Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Combs, Richard]

Mike Bradley wrote:

> Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm
> religious
> about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I
> reply gets
> two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the
> Internet
> traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message.
> Sometimes, as
> with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic, because there
were
> 3 cc's
> on the posting.
> 
> Personally, I find getting duplicate replies annoying and I think
sending
> them
> is rude, but if everyone who posts messages doesn't mind getting
duplicate
> replies, so be it.

You can avoid getting those duplicates by changing your list membership
settings. Log into your mailing list account using the personalized URL
at the bottom of list messages to you. Scroll down to the gray table of
list options. The last option is: 

"Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

"When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list
message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing list.
Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the mailing list; select No to
receive copies."

Set this to Yes and click Submit My Changes. 

HTH!
Richard 


Richard G. Combs
Senior Technical Writer
Polycom, Inc.
richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom
303-223-5111
--
rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom
303-777-0436
--

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Paul Findon]

On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:

>> Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that  
>> we can settle
> this the democratic way?

I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it  
was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for  
awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes  
because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.

A poll sounds good.

Lisa, Brad, Anyone?

Paul

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Matt Sullivan]

Lisa Bronson is now Lisa Gielczyk (like "SpellCheck, as she says)

Or so says the business card she handed me last summer. Which is the only
way I would have been able to get the spelling right.

I don't believe she still has a hand in moderation.

Sent via "reply to all" with little effort, but great anxiety about the
political and usability ramifications. 

-Matt Sullivan



GRAFIX Training, Inc.

An Adobe Authorized Training Center

www.grafixtraining.com

888 882-2819 

-Original Message-
From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Paul Findon
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 8:13 AM
To: Framers
Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re:
default"reply-to-all" "]

On 19 May 2008, at 21:16, Mike Bradley wrote:

>> Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that  
>> we can settle
> this the democratic way?

I think Lisa Bronson took over as list mom in 2005. Before that it  
was Bradley Anderson. Neither have posted anything to this list for  
awhile.  Perhaps there are some changes going on behind the scenes  
because the frameusers.com Web site has been down for sometime.

A poll sounds good.

Lisa, Brad, Anyone?

Paul
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[Fwd: Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was Re: default reply-to-all]]

[Hedley Finger]

DID IT AGAIN!
--Hedley

All:

 Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt,
  others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your
  Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list.
 

 You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy
 weren't speaking _literally_ about reply-to-all, but _functionally_.
 Your reply-to-list goes to everyone on the list, so it functions
 exactly as Alan described.

 You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer
 something different. OK, noted. :-)
   

So, if a message sent to the list also has some C.c.s, and I hit 
Reply-to-All in Thunderbird/Penelope, is that reply-to-all-all?  
Seriously.

Alan and Jeremy were not speaking metaphorically, functionally, 
allegorically, etc. about reply-to-all in the list.  What they were 
doing was misunderstanding my explanation of how I use my  email client 
for only the framers list and none other:

1I hit the Reply-to-All button to get all the addresses in the To 
and C.c. fields.

2I delete the fields I don't want, usually all of them except the 
list address.

3I send the email.   So perhaps Alan and Jeremy were speaking 
operationally and figuratively.

Now if they had been speaking behaviourally, since every other list I 
subscribe to -- dozens of them (yes, I don't have a life) --  returns a 
Reply to the list, thus catering for the habitual behaviour of the 
millions of list users in the known multiverse who have become used to 
this and expect it.  Of course, there is always someone who will argue 
for the technically correct way of doing things rather than what meets 
people's expectations.  Which is why there are so many bad GUIs from 
developers who implement some ideological pure way rather than first 
asking what people do, what people want, and what people expect, and 
then implementing *that*.

Regards,
Hedley

P.S.  Bugger, just before sending this I noticed that the message was 
addressed to Combs, Richard and not the list.  Okay, let's correct the 
address yet again and send the message.

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Fwd: Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was Re: default reply-to-all]]

[Bill Swallow]

Old dogs... ;-)

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
STC Single-Sourcing SIG Manager
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com
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RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Mike Bradley]

 May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that e-mail
 client behavior) simply do a Reply to All *each and every time* you
 want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the effect
 you want?

Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm religious
about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I reply gets
two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the Internet
traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message. Sometimes, as
with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic, because there were 3 cc's
on the posting. 

Personally, I find getting duplicate replies annoying and I think sending them
is rude, but if everyone who posts messages doesn't mind getting duplicate
replies, so be it.

Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that we can settle
this the democratic way?

= Mike Bradley
  www.techpubs.com


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RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability?

[Dennis Brunnenmeyer]

Just so everyone on this list has an idea of what 
one alternative method of posting to a list looks 
like, I've included the principle headers from 
another list to which I subscribe. Mind you, my 
subscription is set up to receive digests 
several times daily rather than individual 
postings as they are sent to the list server. A 
digest contains a collection of postings, 
concatenated down the page. A typical digest will 
contain from 2 to 12 postings, each basically an 
email message sent by the posting member. I do 
not recommend using digests; I just include the 
header information to show what the Reply-To: and From: lines look like.

One possibly major disadvantage of this method of 
posting is the latency involved. That is, a 
posting may not appear for several hours, whereas 
direct email may be quicker—perhaps near 
instantaneous. I don't recall how quickly 
individual postings appeared prior to when I 
changed over to a digest format. Timeliness may 
be a good reason for leaving things the way they are.

The FOLKDJ-L subscriber list comprises folk music 
artists, radio DJs that play folk music, 
publicity agents, record label staffers and so 
on. It is used to share radio program playlists 
and occasionally to make announcements of one kind or another.

This list is a LISTSERV list. I suppose MAILMAN could do something similar:

Date:  Mon, 19 May 2008 11:57:29 -0400
Reply-To: Folk and Bluegrass DJs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: Folk and Bluegrass DJs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: FOLKDJ-L [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FOLKDJ-L - 19 May 2008 - Special issue (#2008-427)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Note that a Reply to any message in the digest is a Reply to the list.

Dennis...

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
Director of Engineering
CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS
15019 Rattlesnake Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710
Office: (530) 477-9015
Fax:  (530) 477-9085
Mobile: (530) 320-9025
eMail:  dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com
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RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [wasRe: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Syed.Hosain]

Hi, Mike.

  May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that
e-mail
  client behavior) simply do a Reply to All *each and every time*
you
  want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the
effect
  you want?
 
 Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm
religious
 about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I
reply gets
 two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the
Internet
 traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message.

A point ...  but this is pretty darn minor, I would think(?) It is not a
busy list per se.

 Sometimes, as with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic,
because
 there were 3 cc's on the posting.

But, if the same person is included three (or more) times on a Cc, mail
servers filter that out anyway.

 Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that we
can settle
 this the democratic way?

I'd rather not see it change, because I am used to the way this list
operates currently. But, if the consensus is to go the other way, then I
will change my expectations too and work without letting it bug me.

I think we are worrying about this more than we need to - the real
object is to deal with FrameMaker questions. So, I will go quiet now on
this topic ...

Z
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Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re: default "reply-to-all" "]

[Hedley Finger]

Paul Findon wrote:

> What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message
> with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
> may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
> several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
> responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
> I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.
>   
Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen 
into this trap.

-- Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re: default "reply-to-all" "]

[Alan Litchfield]

Ayup. I can understand the rationale for it, but this is the only list to
which I am subscribed that replies in this way.

And, you know, I just about did it again with this post :/

Alan

Hedley Finger wrote:
> Paul Findon wrote:
>
>> What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message
>> with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
>> may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
>> several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
>> responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
>> I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.
>>
> Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen
> into this trap.
>


-- 
Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was "Re: default "reply-to-all"]

[Hedley Finger]

All:

>> Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt,
>> > others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your
>> > Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list.
>> 
>
> You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy
> weren't speaking _literally_ about "reply-to-all," but _functionally_.
> Your "reply-to-list" goes to everyone on the list, so it functions
> exactly as Alan described.
>
> You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer
> something different. OK, noted. :-)
>   

So, if a message sent to the list also has some C.c.s, and I hit 
Reply-to-All in Thunderbird/Penelope, is that "reply-to-all-all"?  
Seriously.

Alan and Jeremy were not speaking metaphorically, functionally, 
allegorically, etc. about "reply-to-all" in the list.  What they were 
doing was misunderstanding my explanation of how I use my  email client 
for only the framers list and none other:

1I hit the Reply-to-All button to get all the addresses in the To 
and C.c. fields.

2I delete the fields I don't want, usually all of them except the 
list address.

3I send the email.   So perhaps Alan and Jeremy were speaking 
operationally and figuratively.

Now if they had been speaking behaviourally, since every other list I 
subscribe to -- dozens of them (yes, I don't have a life) --  returns a 
Reply to the list, thus catering for the habitual behaviour of the 
millions of list users in the known multiverse who have become used to 
this and expect it.  Of course, there is always someone who will argue 
for the "technically" correct way of doing things rather than what meets 
people's expectations.  Which is why there are so many bad GUIs from 
developers who implement some ideological "pure" way rather than first 
asking what people do, what people want, and what people expect, and 
then implementing *that*.

Regards,
Hedley

P.S.  Bugger, just before sending this I noticed that the message was 
addressed to "Combs, Richard" and not the list.  Okay, let's correct the 
address yet again and send the message.

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 

[Fwd: Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was "Re: default "reply-to-all"]]

[Hedley Finger]

<>

All:

>> Hedley is not asking for a "reply-to-all." What he, I and, no doubt,
>> > others want is "reply-to-list." In other words, when you click your
>> > Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list.
>> 
>
> You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy
> weren't speaking _literally_ about "reply-to-all," but _functionally_.
> Your "reply-to-list" goes to everyone on the list, so it functions
> exactly as Alan described.
>
> You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer
> something different. OK, noted. :-)
>   

So, if a message sent to the list also has some C.c.s, and I hit 
Reply-to-All in Thunderbird/Penelope, is that "reply-to-all-all"?  
Seriously.

Alan and Jeremy were not speaking metaphorically, functionally, 
allegorically, etc. about "reply-to-all" in the list.  What they were 
doing was misunderstanding my explanation of how I use my  email client 
for only the framers list and none other:

1I hit the Reply-to-All button to get all the addresses in the To 
and C.c. fields.

2I delete the fields I don't want, usually all of them except the 
list address.

3I send the email.   So perhaps Alan and Jeremy were speaking 
operationally and figuratively.

Now if they had been speaking behaviourally, since every other list I 
subscribe to -- dozens of them (yes, I don't have a life) --  returns a 
Reply to the list, thus catering for the habitual behaviour of the 
millions of list users in the known multiverse who have become used to 
this and expect it.  Of course, there is always someone who will argue 
for the "technically" correct way of doing things rather than what meets 
people's expectations.  Which is why there are so many bad GUIs from 
developers who implement some ideological "pure" way rather than first 
asking what people do, what people want, and what people expect, and 
then implementing *that*.

Regards,
Hedley

P.S.  Bugger, just before sending this I noticed that the message was 
addressed to "Combs, Richard" and not the list.  Okay, let's correct the 
address yet again and send the message.

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. "Hedley Finger" 

[Fwd: Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was "Re: default "reply-to-all"]]

[Bill Swallow]

Old dogs... ;-)

-- 
Bill Swallow
HATT List Owner
WWP-Users List Owner
Senior Member STC, TechValley Chapter
STC Single-Sourcing SIG Manager
http://techcommdood.blogspot.com

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[Mike Bradley]

> May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that e-mail
> client behavior) simply do a "Reply to All" *each and every time* you
> want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the effect
> you want?

Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm religious
about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I reply gets
two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the Internet
traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message. Sometimes, as
with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic, because there were 3 cc's
on the posting. 

Personally, I find getting duplicate replies annoying and I think sending them
is rude, but if everyone who posts messages doesn't mind getting duplicate
replies, so be it.

Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that we can settle
this the democratic way?

= Mike Bradley
  www.techpubs.com

Haven't we learnt anything about usability?

[Dennis Brunnenmeyer]

Just so everyone on this list has an idea of what 
one alternative method of posting to a list looks 
like, I've included the principle headers from 
another list to which I subscribe. Mind you, my 
subscription is set up to receive "digests" 
several times daily rather than individual 
postings as they are sent to the list server. A 
digest contains a collection of postings, 
concatenated down the page. A typical digest will 
contain from 2 to 12 postings, each basically an 
email message sent by the posting member. I do 
not recommend using digests; I just include the 
header information to show what the Reply-To: and From: lines look like.

One possibly major disadvantage of this method of 
posting is the latency involved. That is, a 
posting may not appear for several hours, whereas 
direct email may be quicker?perhaps near 
instantaneous. I don't recall how quickly 
individual postings appeared prior to when I 
changed over to a digest format. Timeliness may 
be a good reason for leaving things the way they are.

The FOLKDJ-L subscriber list comprises folk music 
artists, radio DJs that play folk music, 
publicity agents, record label staffers and so 
on. It is used to share radio program playlists 
and occasionally to make announcements of one kind or another.

This list is a LISTSERV list. I suppose MAILMAN could do something similar:

Date:  Mon, 19 May 2008 11:57:29 -0400
Reply-To: Folk and Bluegrass DJs 
Sender: Folk and Bluegrass DJs 
From: FOLKDJ-L 
Subject: FOLKDJ-L - 19 May 2008 - Special issue (#2008-427)
To: FOLKDJ-L at LISTS.PSU.EDU

Note that a Reply to any message in the digest is a Reply to the list.

Dennis...

Dennis Brunnenmeyer
Director of Engineering
CEDAR RIDGE SYSTEMS
15019 Rattlesnake Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945-8710
Office: (530) 477-9015
Fax:  (530) 477-9085
Mobile: (530) 320-9025
eMail:  dennisb /at/ chronometrics /dot/ com

Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was"Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[syed.hos...@aeris.net]

Hi, Mike.

> > May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that
e-mail
> > client behavior) simply do a "Reply to All" *each and every time*
you
> > want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the
effect
> > you want?
> 
> Actually, it doesn't give us the effect we want at all. Not that I'm
religious
> about it, but with Reply to All, the sender of the message to which I
reply gets
> two copies, one sent to him/her and one to the list. This doubles the
Internet
> traffic needlessly, whereas Reply to List sends only one message.

A point ...  but this is pretty darn minor, I would think(?) It is not a
busy list per se.

> Sometimes, as with this message, it quadruples the Internet traffic,
because
> there were 3 cc's on the posting.

But, if the same person is included three (or more) times on a Cc, mail
servers filter that out anyway.

> Does this list have a moderator? Could you poll the list so that we
can settle
> this the democratic way?

I'd rather not see it change, because I am used to the way this list
operates currently. But, if the consensus is to go the other way, then I
will change my expectations too and work without letting it bug me.

I think we are worrying about this more than we need to - the real
object is to deal with FrameMaker questions. So, I will go quiet now on
this topic ...

Z

Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re: default reply-to-all ]

[Hedley Finger]

Paul Findon wrote:

 What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message
 with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
 may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
 several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
 responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
 I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.
   
Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen 
into this trap.

-- Hedley

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re: default reply-to-all ]

[Alan Litchfield]

Ayup. I can understand the rationale for it, but this is the only list to
which I am subscribed that replies in this way.

And, you know, I just about did it again with this post :/

Alan

Hedley Finger wrote:
 Paul Findon wrote:

 What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a message
 with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
 may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
 several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
 responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
 I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.

 Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen
 into this trap.



-- 
Alan Litchfield MBus (Hons), MNZCS
AlphaByte
PO Box 1941, Auckland
http://www.alphabyte.co.nz

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Haven't we learnt anything about usability design? [was Re: default reply-to-all]

[Hedley Finger]

All:

 Hedley is not asking for a reply-to-all. What he, I and, no doubt,
  others want is reply-to-list. In other words, when you click your
  Reply button, by default, messages are addressed to the list.
 

 You're making a distinction without a difference. Alan and Jeremy
 weren't speaking _literally_ about reply-to-all, but _functionally_.
 Your reply-to-list goes to everyone on the list, so it functions
 exactly as Alan described.

 You haven't countered Alan's argument, just stated that you prefer
 something different. OK, noted. :-)
   

So, if a message sent to the list also has some C.c.s, and I hit 
Reply-to-All in Thunderbird/Penelope, is that reply-to-all-all?  
Seriously.

Alan and Jeremy were not speaking metaphorically, functionally, 
allegorically, etc. about reply-to-all in the list.  What they were 
doing was misunderstanding my explanation of how I use my  email client 
for only the framers list and none other:

1I hit the Reply-to-All button to get all the addresses in the To 
and C.c. fields.

2I delete the fields I don't want, usually all of them except the 
list address.

3I send the email.   So perhaps Alan and Jeremy were speaking 
operationally and figuratively.

Now if they had been speaking behaviourally, since every other list I 
subscribe to -- dozens of them (yes, I don't have a life) --  returns a 
Reply to the list, thus catering for the habitual behaviour of the 
millions of list users in the known multiverse who have become used to 
this and expect it.  Of course, there is always someone who will argue 
for the technically correct way of doing things rather than what meets 
people's expectations.  Which is why there are so many bad GUIs from 
developers who implement some ideological pure way rather than first 
asking what people do, what people want, and what people expect, and 
then implementing *that*.

Regards,
Hedley

P.S.  Bugger, just before sending this I noticed that the message was 
addressed to Combs, Richard and not the list.  Okay, let's correct the 
address yet again and send the message.

--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--

Hedley Finger

28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re: defaultreply-to-all ]

[Syed.Hosain]

This looks like it is heading towards a general religious war. Kinda
pointless. We have people on both sides clearly - *maybe* with even
rational arguments for their position!

May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that e-mail
client behavior) simply do a Reply to All *each and every time* you
want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the effect
you want?

And the others (myself included) who want Reply to go to *just* the
sender (to behave like every other e-mail we get and client we use) will
get the effect we want?

Regards,

Z

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 Hedley Finger
 Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:36 PM
 Cc: Framers
 Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was Re:
defaultreply-to-all ]
 
 Paul Findon wrote:
 
  What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a
message
  with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
  may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
  several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
  responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
  I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.
 
 Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen
 into this trap.
 
 -- Hedley
 
 --
 
 Hedley Finger
 
 28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
 Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
 Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
 Email. Hedley Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
 ___
 
 
 You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 To unsubscribe send a blank email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re: default"reply-to-all" "]

[syed.hos...@aeris.net]

This looks like it is heading towards a general religious war. Kinda
pointless. We have people on both sides clearly - *maybe* with even
rational arguments for their position!

May I simply suggest that you and Paul (and others who want that e-mail
client behavior) simply do a "Reply to All" *each and every time* you
want to reply to a Frame Users List message, and you will get the effect
you want?

And the others (myself included) who want "Reply" to go to *just* the
sender (to behave like every other e-mail we get and client we use) will
get the effect we want?

Regards,

Z

> -Original Message-
> From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com
[mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of
> Hedley Finger
> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:36 PM
> Cc: Framers
> Subject: Re: Haven't we learnt anything about usability? [was "Re:
default"reply-to-all" "]
> 
> Paul Findon wrote:
> 
> > What normally happens to me with Framers is that I reply to a
message
> > with some info that I believe will of interest to other Framers and
> > may trigger a response, or I add a new sub question. Then, after
> > several days I remember the thread and wonder why no one has
> > responded. I check the message I sent and discover that once again
> > I've been fooled by Framers non-standard reply mechanism.
> >
> Me, too!   Sorry to me-too but I bet there are others who have fallen
> into this trap.
> 
> -- Hedley
> 
> --
> 
> Hedley Finger
> 
> 28 Regent Street   Camberwell VIC 3124   Australia
> Tel. +61 3 9809 1229   Fax. (call phone first)
> Mob. (cell) +61 412 461 558
> Email. "Hedley Finger" 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> 
> You are currently subscribed to Framers as Syed.Hosain at aeris.net.
> 
> Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com.
> 
> To unsubscribe send a blank email to
> framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com
> or visit
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net
> 
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