Re: Conditional text in Frame 9
Hi Rick, Sounds like a plan - thanks for getting back to me on this. I won't go off list yet, as others may be interested or have more comments (apologies if you get this twice, therefore). If we can crack it, though, I would be definitely interested in a FrameScript. Your initial suggestions sound good, but there may be exceptions/complications. * Certainly, if a complete paragraph has one (or more) conditions applied, the paragraph marker should retain those conditions when a new paragraph is created * Consider a paragraph that is completely unconditional except for the last word; in this case FrameMaker gets it right: it leaves the paragraph marker unconditional and starts a new unconditional paragraph In the following examples, A.../A denotes the extent of the conditional text; note carefully the position of the pilcrow (¶) , inside or outside the conditional markers; I apologise if the A tags or the pilcrow (¶) get messed up in translation: Example 1: === Hello Aworld/A¶ Placing the cursor after 'world', pressing Return and typing 'Goodbye' gives: Hello Aworld/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A === * I'm pretty sure FrameMaker makes mistakes when changing the Show/Hide settings. I've seen a heading concatenated onto the end of the previous paragraph, which really screws things up and means you have to check carefully after updating. This will be caused by unconditional paragraph markers. I haven't tested this thoroughly, but subsequent changes in Show/Hide followed by another Update will compound the issue. I think this may be caused by FrameMaker's inconsistent behaviour when concatenating paragraphs (by a conscious deletion on the user's part, or automatically when changing Show/Hide settings). Consider these two cases: Example 2 (duff first para thanks to Frame): === AHello world/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A Placing the cursor before 'Goodbye' and pressing Delete gives: AHello worldGoodbye¶/A === Example 3 (intentional conditional 'world'): === Hello Aworld/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A Placing the cursor before 'Goodbye' and pressing Delete gives: Hello AworldGoodbye¶/A This one will definitely screw you over!!! === Martin On 26 Jan 2011, at 22:01, Rick Quatro wrote: If this becomes a maintenance hassle, it could be fixed automatically with FrameScript. I am thinking you could have a script that would check to see if an entire paragraph except the paragraph mark is conditional, that it would automatically apply that condition to the paragraph mark. The script could be triggered automatically when you show or hide conditional text, or perhaps when you add a new paragraph. If you are interested, send me a sample document offlist and I will see what is possible and let you know. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-659-8267 r...@frameexpert.com *** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com Subject: Re: Conditional text in Frame 9 That's exactly what I thought when I read your original post. We're experiencing the same problems at work... ultra frustration at how the conditional text that used to work like a charm and that you could rely on now doesn't work worth a dang! Adobe I hope you're listening... If we come across anything that helps, I'll be certain to send it along. Cheers, Deb ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
* I'm pretty sure FrameMaker makes mistakes when changing the Show/Hide settings. FM9 absolutely can make mistakes when changing the Show/Hide settings. I've found that in order to make sure things appear as they are supposed I need to make sure: - I have as much RAM available as possible - Preview is OFF in all relevant files whenever I change Show/Hide Conditional Settings Alison Alison Craig, Technical Writer Ultrasonix Medical Corporation Tel: (604) 279-8550, ext 127 E-mail: alison.cr...@ultrasonix.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Martin Ley Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 5:12 PM To: Rick Quatro Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Conditional text in Frame 9 Hi Rick, Sounds like a plan - thanks for getting back to me on this. I won't go off list yet, as others may be interested or have more comments (apologies if you get this twice, therefore). If we can crack it, though, I would be definitely interested in a FrameScript. Your initial suggestions sound good, but there may be exceptions/complications. * Certainly, if a complete paragraph has one (or more) conditions applied, the paragraph marker should retain those conditions when a new paragraph is created * Consider a paragraph that is completely unconditional except for the last word; in this case FrameMaker gets it right: it leaves the paragraph marker unconditional and starts a new unconditional paragraph In the following examples, A.../A denotes the extent of the conditional text; note carefully the position of the pilcrow (¶) , inside or outside the conditional markers; I apologise if the A tags or the pilcrow (¶) get messed up in translation: Example 1: === Hello Aworld/A¶ Placing the cursor after 'world', pressing Return and typing 'Goodbye' gives: Hello Aworld/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A === * I'm pretty sure FrameMaker makes mistakes when changing the Show/Hide settings. I've seen a heading concatenated onto the end of the previous paragraph, which really screws things up and means you have to check carefully after updating. This will be caused by unconditional paragraph markers. I haven't tested this thoroughly, but subsequent changes in Show/Hide followed by another Update will compound the issue. I think this may be caused by FrameMaker's inconsistent behaviour when concatenating paragraphs (by a conscious deletion on the user's part, or automatically when changing Show/Hide settings). Consider these two cases: Example 2 (duff first para thanks to Frame): === AHello world/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A Placing the cursor before 'Goodbye' and pressing Delete gives: AHello worldGoodbye¶/A === Example 3 (intentional conditional 'world'): === Hello Aworld/A¶ AGoodbye¶/A Placing the cursor before 'Goodbye' and pressing Delete gives: Hello AworldGoodbye¶/A This one will definitely screw you over!!! === Martin On 26 Jan 2011, at 22:01, Rick Quatro wrote: If this becomes a maintenance hassle, it could be fixed automatically with FrameScript. I am thinking you could have a script that would check to see if an entire paragraph except the paragraph mark is conditional, that it would automatically apply that condition to the paragraph mark. The script could be triggered automatically when you show or hide conditional text, or perhaps when you add a new paragraph. If you are interested, send me a sample document offlist and I will see what is possible and let you know. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-659-8267 r...@frameexpert.com *** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com Subject: Re: Conditional text in Frame 9 That's exactly what I thought when I read your original post. We're experiencing the same problems at work... ultra frustration at how the conditional text that used to work like a charm and that you could rely on now doesn't work worth a dang! Adobe I hope you're listening... If we come across anything that helps, I'll be certain to send it along. Cheers, Deb ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as alison.cr...@ultrasonix.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/alison.craig%40ultrasonix.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
-Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:23 PM I have Frame 8 and can reproduce it. You can avoid it by not including the pilcrow in the condition in the first place. And I didn't know it was called a pilcrow... Write the paragraph. Swipe the cursor over it and include the final period but not the pilcrow. Apply conditional text to that and you avoid the problem. But if you triple-click the paragraph and apply conditional text you get the problem. But if I don't conditionalize the pilcrow, when I hide the condition the pilcrow stays there, and I end up with a blank paragraph. In most cases, that's not what I want. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. Bob Let what comes, come, Let what goes, go, Find out what remains. Sri Ramana Maharshi ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
I believe this change in behavior was introduced in FM7, and my recollection is that it was described as a correction in the release notes. In other words, it appeared to have been a change that was made deliberately by the development team in India. And if that is the case, it's now an uphill battle to establish that this illogical and annoying behavior is, in fact, *incorrect* and needs to be changed back to the way it was for years and years before FM7. -Fred Ridder Subject: RE: Conditional text in Frame 9 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:51:50 -0500 From: rshel...@opentext.com To: dr_go...@pobox.com; mar...@em-dash.com CC: framers@lists.frameusers.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:23 PM I have Frame 8 and can reproduce it. You can avoid it by not including the pilcrow in the condition in the first place. And I didn't know it was called a pilcrow... Write the paragraph. Swipe the cursor over it and include the final period but not the pilcrow. Apply conditional text to that and you avoid the problem. But if you triple-click the paragraph and apply conditional text you get the problem. But if I don't conditionalize the pilcrow, when I hide the condition the pilcrow stays there, and I end up with a blank paragraph. In most cases, that's not what I want. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. Bob Let what comes, come, Let what goes, go, Find out what remains. Sri Ramana Maharshi ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as docu...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/docudoc%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
Robert Shelton wrote: But if I don't conditionalize the pilcrow, when I hide the condition the pilcrow stays there, and I end up with a blank paragraph. In most cases, that's not what I want. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. The way I've dealt with that (and with issues that may arise if you're conditionalizing the last pgf in the flow) is by applying the condition to the pilcrow of the previous pgf. IOW, the condition spans from just to the left of the pilcrow in pgf 1 to just to the left of the pilcrow in pgf 2. Obviously, this only works if both pgfs are the same format. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
Hear, hear!! I had a gap between version 5 and 7.2 for using FrameMaker and didn't do much with conditional text in the old days. It was indeed a poor and illogical decision to treat the pilcrow (never heard that before!) as something different from the rest of the paragraph. Of course you want the pilcrow to be part of the conditional text!! I have run across this behavior quite a bit and simply have to go back and apply the condition to the pilcrow. Regards, Dimi Dimi Everette, Sr. Technical Writer 6500 River Place Blvd., Bldg. 6, Austin, TX 78730 | t: 512.372.6988 | f: 512.372.7001 Please consider your environmental responsibility before printing this e-mail This communication (including any attachments) may contain privileged or confidential information of Polycom and is intended for a specific individual. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this communication, including any attachments without reading or saving them in any manner, and you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this communication, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Fred Ridder Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:29 AM To: rshel...@opentext.com; dr_go...@pobox.com; mar...@em-dash.com Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Conditional text in Frame 9 I believe this change in behavior was introduced in FM7, and my recollection is that it was described as a correction in the release notes. In other words, it appeared to have been a change that was made deliberately by the development team in India. And if that is the case, it's now an uphill battle to establish that this illogical and annoying behavior is, in fact, *incorrect* and needs to be changed back to the way it was for years and years before FM7. -Fred Ridder Subject: RE: Conditional text in Frame 9 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:51:50 -0500 From: rshel...@opentext.com To: dr_go...@pobox.com; mar...@em-dash.com CC: framers@lists.frameusers.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:23 PM I have Frame 8 and can reproduce it. You can avoid it by not including the pilcrow in the condition in the first place. And I didn't know it was called a pilcrow... Write the paragraph. Swipe the cursor over it and include the final period but not the pilcrow. Apply conditional text to that and you avoid the problem. But if you triple-click the paragraph and apply conditional text you get the problem. But if I don't conditionalize the pilcrow, when I hide the condition the pilcrow stays there, and I end up with a blank paragraph. In most cases, that's not what I want. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. Bob Let what comes, come, Let what goes, go, Find out what remains. Sri Ramana Maharshi ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as docu...@hotmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/docudoc%40hotmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as dimi.evere...@polycom.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/dimi.everette%40polycom.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Conditional text in Frame 9
That's exactly what I thought when I read your original post. We're experiencing the same problems at work... ultra frustration at how the conditional text that used to work like a charm and that you could rely on now doesn't work worth a dang! Adobe I hope you're listening... If we come across anything that helps, I'll be certain to send it along. Cheers, Deb On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:51 AM, Robert Shelton rshel...@opentext.comwrote: -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Steve Johnson Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:23 PM I have Frame 8 and can reproduce it. You can avoid it by not including the pilcrow in the condition in the first place. And I didn't know it was called a pilcrow... Write the paragraph. Swipe the cursor over it and include the final period but not the pilcrow. Apply conditional text to that and you avoid the problem. But if you triple-click the paragraph and apply conditional text you get the problem. But if I don't conditionalize the pilcrow, when I hide the condition the pilcrow stays there, and I end up with a blank paragraph. In most cases, that's not what I want. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution. Bob Let what comes, come, Let what goes, go, Find out what remains. Sri Ramana Maharshi ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as debra.laro...@gmail.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/debra.laroche%40gmail.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Conditional text in Frame 9
If this becomes a maintenance hassle, it could be fixed automatically with FrameScript. I am thinking you could have a script that would check to see if an entire paragraph except the paragraph mark is conditional, that it would automatically apply that condition to the paragraph mark. The script could be triggered automatically when you show or hide conditional text, or perhaps when you add a new paragraph. If you are interested, send me a sample document offlist and I will see what is possible and let you know. Rick Quatro Carmen Publishing Inc. 585-659-8267 r...@frameexpert.com *** Frame Automation blog at http://frameautomation.com Subject: Re: Conditional text in Frame 9 That's exactly what I thought when I read your original post. We're experiencing the same problems at work... ultra frustration at how the conditional text that used to work like a charm and that you could rely on now doesn't work worth a dang! Adobe I hope you're listening... If we come across anything that helps, I'll be certain to send it along. Cheers, Deb ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Conditional text in Frame 9
I have Frame 8 and can reproduce it. You can avoid it by not including the pilcrow in the condition in the first place. And I didn't know it was called a pilcrow... Write the paragraph. Swipe the cursor over it and include the final period but not the pilcrow. Apply conditional text to that and you avoid the problem. But if you triple-click the paragraph and apply conditional text you get the problem. On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Martin Ley mar...@em-dash.com wrote: Folks, I'm running FrameMaker 9 (all the updates) on XP SP3, and have noticed a conditional text gotcha: I have an entire paragraph in one condition. If I place the cursor at the end of that paragraph and hit return, the end-of-paragraph character (pilcrow) goes unconditional, but the _new_ paragraph remains in the conditional state. Weird - anyone else get this, or know how to fix it? It plays havoc when I build a conditional book. Martin mar...@em-dash.com ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as dr_go...@pobox.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/dr_gonzo%40pobox.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- Steve Johnson, dr_go...@pobox.com ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
