Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
You can buy the electronic version from http://comtech-serv.com//index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=28_3products_id=10. I really like ebooks. I'm reading it already. Thanks for your replies, everyone. It's been very helpful! Rebecca Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nz 10/07/13 15:31 Unfortunately, that book cannot be sold internationally by Amazon. :( Alan On 10/07/13 2:19 PM, Writer wrote: Agreed. That has been my go to book since I started using DITA. Nadine This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig -- AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as rebecca.offi...@alliedtelesis.co.nz. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rebecca.officer%40alliedtelesis.co.nz Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Rebecca Officer wrote: ? You can buy the electronic version from http://comtech-serv.com//index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=28_3products_id=10http://comtech-serv.com/index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=28_3products_id=10. ? I really like ebooks. I'm reading it already. Thanks for the info, Rebecca! 1. Do you know the ebook format for this book? What reader are you using? The site does not describe it as far as I could tell. 2. If not a downloadable format, do you have to stay connected to the Internet while reading, or starting to read, it? Z rant The reason I ask is that I prefer to read on my Kindle Fire and/or a Kindle app on my laptop - particularly when travelling on a plane or hotel. And Kindle books do _not_ require a live Internet connection while reading! Last fall, my son decided to try an electronic textbook for a High School class to save paper and the result is _extremely_ disappointing. The protections on the file (whatever the format is) require a live Internet connection on his Mac whenever he starts reading the book ... apparently to check whether he has the rights to do so. And, if he forgets to change his browser to allow cookies, the program will not even find the book on the site - the download mechanisms failed from the very beginning and the tech support cannot find a solution. This is ridiculous - particularly for such an expensive textbook. This coming fall, we decided to kill trees rather than experiment with text ebooks again. If enough people feel the same way, it will probably make the publisher think that electronic textbooks are not a good market - despite the fact that it was their atrocious rights management system that made it less than useful! And, I am quite leary if the Kindle version of a book is not available - and given that the paper book is sold on Amazon, but there is no reference to a Kindle version - it gives me pause. I have purchased many non-fiction technical books in Kindle format and the format has worked out well - particularly on a Fire HD where images and color diagrams are perfectly fine! /rant ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Neither do PDFs, which are superior in pretty much every way. On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Syed Zaeem Hosain (syed.hos...@aeris.net) syed.hos...@aeris.net wrote: Kindle books do _not_ require a live Internet connection while reading! ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Robert Lauriston said: Neither do PDFs, which are superior in pretty much every way. Yes, they are good in many ways, but PDFs don't flow across pages as smoothly as Kindle documents on a Kindle when things like the font-size, etc., are changed. Z ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
If you can't find another option, you can have it forwarded to you by this company: http://www.shipito.com/shop-pricing They give you a US address to ship it to, and then they forward it to you. There are a few company that do mail forwarding, but I found this one to be the cheapest. It would probably cost you around $20-$25 including their handling fee. Regards, Shmuel Wolfson Technical Writer 052-763-7133 On 10-Jul-13 6:31 AM, Alan T Litchfield wrote: Unfortunately, that book cannot be sold internationally by Amazon. :( Alan On 10/07/13 2:19 PM, Writer wrote: Agreed. That has been my go to book since I started using DITA. Nadine This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Hi Rebecca Your to-do list is pretty accurate. I've added my comments below, preceded by [Yves] On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 9:49 AM, rebecca officer rebecca.offi...@alliedtelesis.co.nz wrote: Hi everyone Thanks very much for your answers. I really appreciate the expertise on this list. [Yves] You're welcome. I'm asking because I proposed to my team that we investigate going to DITA. One of my team members asked why not just use our existing set of paragraph tags etc and convert those to structured Frame and then into an XML schema? I didn't really have a good answer. [Yves] Because you'd be reinventing the DITA wheel, and this would mean a lot of work. As well as us editing docs in Framemaker, we'd want engineers editing the same docs in another XML editor, eg Oxygen. So we'd have to round-trip. [Yves] Good idea and good choice of tools: oXygen XML Author and FrameMaker+DITA-Fmx play very well together. With FMx-Auto ( http://leximation.com/dita-fmx/fmx-auto.php ), you can even generate Fm books from within oXygen. So am I right that if we do our own schema, we'd have to: - create a template (based on our unstructured FM one): [Yves] correct, but you may have to create templates (plural), which may be difficult to maintain - model tables, cross-references, images, etc: [Yves] correct - model some equivalent of conrefs if we want content reuse [Yves] correct, but also think of equivalents of other advanced DITA reuse techniques, such as conditional text (ditaval), relationship tables, keys (keyref, keydef, conkeyref...) - create some equivalent of ditamaps [Yves] correct, this would be Fm books - create an EDD [Yves]correct, but you may have to create multiple EDDs (for authoring and for publishing) - create a DTD [Yves] correct, but this may be multiple DTDs (for various information types) - create read/write rules [Yves] correct - create XSLT and CSS files in order to output XHTML [Yves]correct - create an XSL-FO file in order to output PDFs [Yves]not necessarily. you can also create your PDFs via FrameMaker [Yves] When doing the information modeling, do not underestimate the effort to define the metadata and the attributes in particular. Or am I drastically on the wrong track? [Yves] No, you're doing just fine. ;-) Does structured Frame automatically provide any of the above? [Yves] Structured Frame without DITA (so saving your files as .fm not .xml)? No. Structured Frame with DITA? Yes, and structured Frame with DITA-FMx even a lot more than that: http://leximation.com/dita-fmx/featurecomparison.php [Rebecca] With DITA, I think we'd use DITA-FMx. Does that make it easier to muck with your PDF output? From what I've read, PDFs sound like the biggest pain point so far. [Yves] There are various ways and tools to generate PDFs from DITA-structured content: - DITA FrameMaker PDF - DITA FrameMaker+DITA-FMx PDF - DITA XSL-FO PDF - DITA Word PDF - DITA WebWorks ePublisher PDF My favourite way is to generate PDFs via DITA-FMx because it is very easy to design custom (or variants of) FrameMaker bookbuild templates. Bookbuild templates (aka component templates) are used to generate Fm books from the DITA map. Then, you save this Fm book as PDF. If you know how to design professional unstructured FrameMaker templates, you can also design DITA-FMx bookbuild templates. These videos show you how the bookbuild process goes: http://youtu.be/rkQHuxtRmk0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULFJ53RTHxo Cheers Yves ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
What about directly from Comtech Services? http://comtech-serv.com//index.php?main_page=product_infocPath=28_3products_id=10 Nadine - Original Message - From: Alan T Litchfield a...@alphabyte.co.nz To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Cc: Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2013 11:31:49 PM Subject: Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema Unfortunately, that book cannot be sold internationally by Amazon. :( Alan On 10/07/13 2:19 PM, Writer wrote: Agreed. That has been my go to book since I started using DITA. Nadine This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig -- AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Hi Rebecca I don't think any content maps perfectly to DITA, which is logical. But then again, you can specialize DITA to make it match your content. Some will even say that DITA must be specialized. Others have already given you some good arguments in favor of DITA or DocBook. With DITA, you will also get: - Excellent free support from clever people in various DITA user groups: Yahoo dita-users, DITA Awareness Group on LinkedIn... - Books: http://www.ditawriter.com/dita-books/ - Conferences - DITA-aware tools (editors, CMSs) but also DITA-aware technical writers I've been involved in projects in which customers chose to develop their own schema. It has taken them months to develop the schemas, integrate them in the tools and set up the publication process. With DITA, you can be up and running in just a couple of days (or weeks). If you develop your own schema, you will also have to document it. You get this for free with DITA: http://docs.oasis-open.org/dita/v1.2/spec/DITA1.2-spec.html This may help too (source: http://www.scriptorium.com/2009/12/assessing-dita-as-a-foundation-for-xml-implementation/): Implementing DITA versus implementing custom XML architecture With a basic understanding of DITA, it’s time to tackle the $64,000 question: Should you use DITA for your content? First, you need to determine whether XML in general makes sense for your content requirements. If you decide that XML is appropriate, take a look at DITA. The following table outlines a few possible scenarios. *Scenario* *Recommendation* Content must conform to a specific standard, such as S1000D (manufacturing and aerospace), SPL (Structured Product Labeling, pharmaceuticals), or NewsML (newspaper articles). Use the required standard. DITA, out of the box, meets all requirements. Use DITA. A customer or business partner requires you to deliver DITA content. Use DITA. Content contains lengthy narratives that cannot be broken into reasonable modular chunks. DITA is probably not a good fit. Consider a different standard, perhaps DocBook, or build your own. Single sourcing is a requirement. No existing content. Can be flexible with markup requirements in exchange for quicker implementation. DITA is a good fit. DITA is not an exact match; customization would be required. Compare the cost of DITA customization to the cost of custom implementation. Markup requirements are industry-specific, complex, and strict. Look for an existing standard in your industry or build a custom structure. Kind regards -- Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
This article by Bernard Aschwanden on subsetting DITA may help: http://www.stc-siliconvalley.org/newsletter/2006_05/articles/aschwanden-subsetting-dita.htm On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 3:06 AM, rebecca officer rebecca.offi...@alliedtelesis.co.nz wrote: Does anyone know of a nice, clear list of what you save by using DITA/docbook instead of developing your own schema? The content maps reasonably well to DITA, but not perfectly. I'm trying to figure out whether we're better off working within the limitations of DITA, or whether we should take the DIY approach. A clear list of what you save by using DITA would be really helpful. Many thanks! Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as john.sgamm...@actifio.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/john.sgammato%40actifio.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. -- *John Sgammato * Documentation Architect *e* john.sgamm...@actifio.com *w* +1-(508) 927-2083 *Recover anything instantly for up to 90% less than you're paying now.* ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Okay, I'll start from the assumption that DITA or Docbook as standards are the way to go if you don't want to spend all kinds of time and money on development. Of course changing to DITA or Docbook will cost time and money, too. Just less of both. So which: DITA or Docbook DITA is much more restrictive. The topics are formed from a very finite set of elements which your crew can learn to use adroitly with a little study and practice. Docbook has everything plus the kitchen sink thrown in as elements because it is meant to do, well, just about everything. For my money DITA makes a lot more sense, but your writers have to understand the conceptual framework and work within that relative simplicity. Don't imagine that you can do things like four levels of nested lists. Docbook, by contrast, let's you do just about anything you've been doing in unstructured FrameMaker, you just have to learn which of the many many elements lets you go ahead and do that. For my money, DITA is the way to go . Craig From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of rebecca officer Sent: Monday, July 08, 2013 2:06 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: DITA/docbook vs your own schema Does anyone know of a nice, clear list of what you save by using DITA/docbook instead of developing your own schema? The content maps reasonably well to DITA, but not perfectly. I'm trying to figure out whether we're better off working within the limitations of DITA, or whether we should take the DIY approach. A clear list of what you save by using DITA would be really helpful. Many thanks! Rebecca NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesis Labs Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesis Labs. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
This distinction between a narrative and topics is a good one. I just worked through a series of manuals that were written as narratives. There was a lot of repeated content and procedures that were actually four or five procedures mixed together and then occurring later with the mixture slightly varied at other points in the manual. For the content of these operator manuals, the focus on topics both reduced the need for repetition and allowed breaking things down procedures into units were both stand-alone AND understandable. The links to stand-alone topics allowed redefining confusing procedures by allowing the operator to focus on the big picture. For this particular situation, DITA was a logical choice. BTW: The previous approach had created a maintenance nightmare since changing anything resulted in having to find all the other places where the same or similar text had to change as well. The conversion process uncovered numerous places where such changes had been not been done or was done incompletely. Craig snipped- IMHO, Docbook vs DITA is a choice between ecosystems. While Docbook is leaning towards the narrative, and DITA towards topics, the differences are getting less pronounced. E.g., DITA is slowly leaving DTDs behind, and Docbook is slowly getting assemblies (maps). ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Amen to that! Craig -Original Message- And unless you're very clever, it's easy to paint yourself into a corner with an in-house system. It might be simple to develop something for what your needs are now, but you neglect to make it open-ended or scalable for whatever changes you need to make in the future. And then there's portability... Nadine ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Agreed. That has been my go to book since I started using DITA. Nadine This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
Unfortunately, that book cannot be sold internationally by Amazon. :( Alan On 10/07/13 2:19 PM, Writer wrote: Agreed. That has been my go to book since I started using DITA. Nadine This is a really good book for getting experience in using DITA 1.2. I found that the sample application that is developed was very straightforward to implement in FrameMaker. It won't teach you everything you need to know about DITA, but all the basics are there. http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-DITA-Second-Edition-Architecture/dp/0977863433 An Arbortext specific version of this book also exists. (The one above is not FM specific, but it really doesn't need to be.) Craig -- AlphaByte PO Box 1941, Auckland http://www.alphabyte.co.nz ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema
And unless you're very clever, it's easy to paint yourself into a corner with an in-house system. It might be simple to develop something for what your needs are now, but you neglect to make it open-ended or scalable for whatever changes you need to make in the future. And then there's portability... Nadine From: Alan Houser a...@groupwellesley.com To: framers@lists.frameusers.com framers@lists.frameusers.com Sent: Monday, July 8, 2013 6:50:36 PM Subject: Re: DITA/docbook vs your own schema I gotta generally agree with Matt. Occasionally I run into an information modeling project that I can knock off in an afternoon, but that's pretty rare. Remember that you will not only need to model block content (topics, headings, paragraphs, lists, etc.), but also tables, cross-references, images, etc. The latter set can be a bit tricky. Plus, oh, your metadata. With DITA or DocBook, you also get a publishing framework. Also usually non-trivial to create from scratch, especially if you are publishing to multiple output formats, using filtering, content re-use, etc. I'll mention with some regret that FrameMaker's DocBook support is pretty poor. I've never figured out why...the typical use cases for both (books, PDF) line up very well. It may be a chicken-and-egg issue...I suspect more people would use DocBook if FrameMaker provided better DocBook support. -Alan On 7/8/13 6:31 PM, Matt Sullivan wrote: A list of what you'll save using DITA or DocBook rather than creating your own schema: 1. Time 2. Money (Hey, someone had to say it…) -Matt ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to framers@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
