Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
I've used Mif2Go to convert FM content to Word RTF at the conclusion of three contracts...it was a condition I had to meet if I wa nted to use FM in all-Word departments. In all three instances, the only way to tell whether they were RTF or FM from a printed page was to see what file extension was on the file name that I always put in the footer. > My current client wants me to provide them with output from the > Frame guide I created for them in a format they can edit, not > using Frame. > Then they want to be able to re-publish these files (again, > not using Frame) and have them look the same way they looked > when I created them in Frame. > > I am an experienced Frame user but not a guru and I doubt that > what they want is possible. John Posada Senior Technical Writer "I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is." ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
At 21:45 -0800 8/1/07, Greg Thompson wrote: > My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide > I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they > want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have > them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. Why do they want to do this? Why cannot they buy Frame and learn it? What do they want to use? (Wurd, no doubt...) > I am an experienced Frame user but not a guru and I doubt that what they > want is possible. It would certainly be hard, with a tendency toward impossibility unless the document design is very simple. It seems to be widely accepted that Mif2Go is best at producing RTF, so I would expect that your most productive line of attack would be a FrameMaker -> Mif2Go -> Word -> FrameMaker workflow. The last step would almost certainly be a pain for you. There will be others on this group that will have direct experience of this, so they may be able to provide more concrete advice. > I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But > I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame > without using Frame Your doubts are well-founded. FrameMaker's native export filters are... ahem... suboptimal. There's just a smattering of a chance that FrameMaker 8 might give better support for Word round-tripping, but this is nothing more than surmise on my part. There is another way of looking at your problem. If your clients are only interested in editing *content*, you should at least investigate the possibility of constructing modular documents - that is, FrameMaker documents whose text is imported (as text insets) from plain ASCII files. That way, your clients could edit the ASCII files to their heart's content, and you could then rebuild your FrameMaker document using them. Snags to this approach are: . It doesn't directly support graphics . The modular construction and lack of graphic support leaves text file editors without global milestones (although they could cross-refer to a PDF of the 'real' document) . Text insets suffer from a few wrinkes, such as (in the case of plain ASCII files) not supporting cross-references into them, and not supporting character markup However, as you suggest that your clients want to be able to republish themselves, this idea is unlikely to help. I just hope your clients have not fallen into the 'documentation is easy, our engineers can maintain it' trap ;-) -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
The only problem comes if they edit enough to change the page numbers (which will screw up cross references). If it's only very minor changes (say form fields or UI element names?) then they might get away with just editing and saving the RTF. No 'republishing' required. Alternatively you are probably looking at something clever with XML, XSLT (?) and some sort of engine that they can use to rebuild things... be quicker asking them to buy a copy of FrameMaker to be honest. Gordon McLean --- My opinions are my own. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ers.com]On Behalf Of Greg Thompson Sent: 09 January 2007 05:46 To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2 Hi: My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. I am an experienced Frame user but not a guru and I doubt that what they want is possible. I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame without using Frame Thoughts? Greg Thompson ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gordon.mclean%40grahamte chnology.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. This email (and any attachments) is private and confidential, and is intended solely for the addressee. If you have received this communication in error please remove it and inform us via telephone or email. Although we take all possible steps to ensure mail and attachments are free from malicious content, malware and viruses, we cannot accept any responsibility whatsoever for any changes to content outwith our administrative bounds. The views represented within this mail are solely the view of the author and do not reflect the views of the organisation as a whole. Graham Technology plc http://www.grahamtechnology.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Just make it a PDF and then, in the PDF, click File > Send for Review. Acrobat will make the PDF editable. Caveat: You must possess Acrobat Professional 7.0 or greater. The editor just needs the free Adobe Reader. Thank you, Gillian Flato -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Rickaby Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 6:00 AM To: Greg Thompson Subject: Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2 At 21:45 -0800 8/1/07, Greg Thompson wrote: > My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide > I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they > want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have > them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. Why do they want to do this? Why cannot they buy Frame and learn it? What do they want to use? (Wurd, no doubt...) > I am an experienced Frame user but not a guru and I doubt that what they > want is possible. It would certainly be hard, with a tendency toward impossibility unless the document design is very simple. It seems to be widely accepted that Mif2Go is best at producing RTF, so I would expect that your most productive line of attack would be a FrameMaker -> Mif2Go -> Word -> FrameMaker workflow. The last step would almost certainly be a pain for you. There will be others on this group that will have direct experience of this, so they may be able to provide more concrete advice. > I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But > I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame > without using Frame Your doubts are well-founded. FrameMaker's native export filters are... ahem... suboptimal. There's just a smattering of a chance that FrameMaker 8 might give better support for Word round-tripping, but this is nothing more than surmise on my part. There is another way of looking at your problem. If your clients are only interested in editing *content*, you should at least investigate the possibility of constructing modular documents - that is, FrameMaker documents whose text is imported (as text insets) from plain ASCII files. That way, your clients could edit the ASCII files to their heart's content, and you could then rebuild your FrameMaker document using them. Snags to this approach are: . It doesn't directly support graphics . The modular construction and lack of graphic support leaves text file editors without global milestones (although they could cross-refer to a PDF of the 'real' document) . Text insets suffer from a few wrinkes, such as (in the case of plain ASCII files) not supporting cross-references into them, and not supporting character markup However, as you suggest that your clients want to be able to republish themselves, this idea is unlikely to help. I just hope your clients have not fallen into the 'documentation is easy, our engineers can maintain it' trap ;-) -- Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gflato%40nanometrics .com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
At 09:45 PM 1/8/2007, Greg Thompson wrote: My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. ... I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame without using Frame Greg, The primary goals of XML include software-independence and the type of interchange you describe. Setting up a structured FrameMaker environment and corresponding XML application is rarely a trivial process, but it will allow your client to edit the document in another XML editor (or with a text editor). You'll then be able to open the edited XML version in FrameMaker and it will be automatically formatted. While you can save unstructured documents to XML, it is unlikely that you will have the same success getting the results back into FM. --Lynne Lynne A. Price Text Structure Consulting, Inc. Specializing in structured FrameMaker consulting, application development, and training [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.txstruct.com voice/fax: (510) 583-1505 cell phone: (510) 421-2284 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
At 08:49 -0800 9/1/07, Gillian Flato wrote: >Just make it a PDF and then, in the PDF, click File > Send for Review. >Acrobat will make the PDF editable. > >Caveat: You must possess Acrobat Professional 7.0 or greater. The editor >just needs the free Adobe Reader. And Acrobat can handle line and page reflows? This is not my understanding of what Acrobat is about. My reading of Greg's posting was that his clients wanted to take his FrameMaker documentation forwards into future versions without FrameMaker. And perhaps without Greg. Lynne's point is sound (of course ;-), but if Greg's client is unwilling to tool up in FrameMaker, they're likely to be unwilling cubed to buy into a good XML editing environment, or to accept editing raw XML, iwht. Greg would also have to climb the structure FrameMaker mountain (unless he's already done so). -- Steve Rickaby WordMongers Ltd http://www.wordmongers.com ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Omsys.com's rtf export filter would do the best job if they want to use Word because it mimics the tags pretty well. As soon as your client actually starts editing, though, they're going to notice lots of discrepancies in appearance. Might not matter to them though, if they aren't going to compare it to the FM version side by side. Art On 1/9/07, Greg Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi: My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. I am an experienced Frame user but not a guru and I doubt that what they want is possible. I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame without using Frame Thoughts? Greg Thompson ___ -- Art Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
At 5:25 PM + 1/9/07, Steve Rickaby wrote: >At 08:49 -0800 9/1/07, Gillian Flato wrote: > >>Just make it a PDF and then, in the PDF, click File > Send for Review. >>Acrobat will make the PDF editable. >> >>Caveat: You must possess Acrobat Professional 7.0 or greater. The editor >>just needs the free Adobe Reader. > >And Acrobat can handle line and page reflows? This is not my understanding of >what Acrobat is about. PDF documents are specified page by page. So far as I know there's no way to reflow in Acrobat. The editing facility is to perform minor things. Given the way the PostScript underpinnings work I can't see how Acrobat could do more than that. - web ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Greg, Regarding: >Omsys.com's rtf export filter would do the best job if they want to use Word because it mimics the tags pretty well. >As soon as your client actually starts editing, though, they're going to notice lots of discrepancies in appearance. Might not matter to them though, if they aren't going to compare it to the FM version side by side. More than discrepancies. You should try it first. Mif2Go rtf output is "editable" but it depends on what that consists of. Mif2Go basically strips the automation from the file and puts in manual characters. For example, all bullets and numbers in lists are like keyed entries. You can attach and load your Word template, apply an automated style, but you will still have the hard bullet or number to deal with. For extensive or long term "editing" there will need to be a clever automated method of removing the manual bullets and numbers. Unless someone knows a trick that I don't. Also cross-refs and variables become keyed characters, rather than automated, and I think the non-breaking space or something in Frame cross-refs is turned into a sort of o reverse bullet. Someone will want those removed. There are other matters I don't immediately recall. Someone will also want to resave the rtf output as doc before editing--the rtf becomes unwieldy. There are other limitations I don't recall offhand. But if you just want a Frame format mirrored in Word, for temporary use, Mif2Go does well. Definitely try it first to see if it will work for you and yours. Mike ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Thanks to Michael et all for comments on this topic.
I have always heard a lot of good things about this distribution list and
know I know why! :)
I tried to access the home page for FMUG but it seems to be shut down
because it had become a victim of numerous hacker attacks? What is the story
behind this and are there plans to resurface the site?
Greg Thompson
__
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:56:46 -0500
>Greg,
>
>Regarding:
> >Omsys.com's rtf export filter would do the best job if they want to
>use Word because it mimics the tags pretty well.
> >As soon as your client actually starts editing, though, they're going
>to notice lots of discrepancies in appearance. Might not matter to
>them though, if they aren't going to compare it to the FM version side
>by side.
>
>More than discrepancies. You should try it first. Mif2Go rtf output is
>"editable" but it depends on what that consists of. Mif2Go basically
>strips the automation from the file and puts in manual characters. For
>example, all bullets and numbers in lists are like keyed entries. You
>can attach and load your Word template, apply an automated style, but
>you will still have the hard bullet or number to deal with. For
>extensive or long term "editing" there will need to be a clever
>automated method of removing the manual bullets and numbers. Unless
>someone knows a trick that I don't.
>
>Also cross-refs and variables become keyed characters, rather than
>automated, and I think the non-breaking space or something in Frame
>cross-refs is turned into a sort of o reverse bullet. Someone will want
>those removed. There are other matters I don't immediately recall.
>Someone will also want to resave the rtf output as doc before
>editing--the rtf becomes unwieldy.
>
>There are other limitations I don't recall offhand. But if you just want
>a Frame format mirrored in Word, for temporary use, Mif2Go does well.
>Definitely try it first to see if it will work for you and yours.
>
>Mike
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Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:56:46 -0500, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Mif2Go rtf output is "editable" but it depends on what that consists of.
>Mif2Go basically strips the automation from the file and puts in manual
>characters.
Not always. Where Word doesn't offer anything close, we do
output the Frame content as plain text. But for autonumbers
and xrefs, for example, there are other options.
>For example, all bullets and numbers in lists are like keyed entries. You
>can attach and load your Word template, apply an automated style, but
>you will still have the hard bullet or number to deal with. For
>extensive or long term "editing" there will need to be a clever
>automated method of removing the manual bullets and numbers. Unless
>someone knows a trick that I don't.
We considered supporting Word's regular "bullet and numbering"
feature, but decided not to because it is really unstable,
especially for large docs such as those commonly produced in
Frame. When you are producing Word docs for review purposes,
it's really best to use the default plain text, as that way
you can find the matching Frame para more easily to make any
corrections. If however you are migrating to Word, you can
choose to use SEQ fields which closely emulate Frame's own
autonumbering. That's what Word power users prefer, so Mif2Go
does produce them automatically on request. SEQ fields are
stable, and easily copied for new paragraphs.
>Also cross-refs and variables become keyed characters, rather than
>automated,
By default, xrefs remain *live* xrefs, with added hyperlinks
to emulate Frame capabilities. You can make them plain text if
you prefer. Variables are not well supported in Word, and do
become plain text.
>and I think the non-breaking space or something in Frame
>cross-refs is turned into a sort of o reverse bullet. Someone will want
>those removed.
Sounds like you have Word's settings to view special characters
on. You control that in Word, under Tools | Options | View.
We also use Word hidden text to support features that Word
doesn't allow directly, like refs to page numbers in another
document. If you turn on viewing of hidden text, you'll see
those; or you can turn off that Mif2Go feature and get plain
text page numbers. Your call.
>There are other matters I don't immediately recall.
>Someone will also want to resave the rtf output as doc before
>editing--the rtf becomes unwieldy.
True, especially if you have large bitmaps with 24-bit color
("millions of colors"), for which RTF lacks any compression,
or if you want to support multiple Word versions conveniently.
>There are other limitations I don't recall offhand. But if you just want
>a Frame format mirrored in Word, for temporary use, Mif2Go does well.
>Definitely try it first to see if it will work for you and yours.
Thanks! Those interested can download the current demo version:
http://www.omsys.com/dcl/download.htm
HTH!
-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.omsys.com/
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Re: Looking for an editable output from Frame 7.2
Greg Thompson wrote: My current client wants me to provide them with output from the Frame guide I created for them in a format they can edit, not using Frame. Then they want to be able to re-publish these files (again, not using Frame) and have them look the same way they looked when I created them in Frame. So they have specified which application they don't wish to use, but not which one they will use? Under those circumstances, you'd be justified in delivering the data as XML and leaving it to them to sort out how to format it. Data interchange between applications is a fundamental feature of XML - in fact "XML shall support a wide variety of applications" is design goal number 2 in the W3C recommendation (the W3C equivalent of a standard). I know I can save Frame files as html, xml, text, or rtf and edit them. But I doubt that I can republish them and have them look like they did in Frame without using Frame. Need you concern yourself with that? Surely if they haven't gone to the trouble of specifying what application they intend to use, they can't hold you responsible for supporting it? Give them XML and let them worry about reproducing the layout. They'll be back once they've had a lie down and a good think about it... -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Allette Systems (Australia) www:http://www.allette.com.au ___ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send list messages to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
