RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Hi, Electropubs.com has a nifty little plug-in called Clean Import that lets you replace existing formats with the ones you import (all kinds of formats or just the ones you select). So you could delete the unneeded conditions from one file and then Clean Import conditions from it to all the other files, and that would remove all the unneeded ones. I use FindChangeSpecial from Rick Quatro. Very useful! You do not need to import anything, but you can replace or delete conditions. The plug-in can also work on all files in a book. http://www.frameexpert.com/plugins/findchangespecial/index.htm Best regards Winfried ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
This has led me finally to consider conditional text. I'd create two tags: windows and linux. Then, I'll apply the tags to operating system specific UI/functionality while leaving shared content alone. Sounds like a perfect solution. Here's the thing though, I am not a fan of conditional text. I've learned that i need to apply the tags in a very specific sequence and apply it to preceding paragraph marks or otherwise hiding and showing the conditional text introduces funky formatting into my book. I also think it makes managing and tracking content in a document really tricky. Well, you do need to be consistent about applying it. But conditional text shouldn't be affecting style-driven formatting at all. Are you hiding indicators when publishing? -is there a better mechanism than conditional text that I could use to get the same result? Not without moving to DITA or another XML solution. -If conditional text is the best solution, is there a framemaker plugin that makes managing conditional text easier? Note that I am not interested in FrameScript. I've always found Frame's native conditional text handling to be more than adequate so I've never looked before. A quick Google search turned up a few but I can't speak to them at all. -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood Available for contract and full time opportunities. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Joseph Lorenzini wrote: snip sense to create two different documents, which share a large amount of information. This has led me finally to consider conditional text. I'd create two tags: windows and linux. Then, I'll apply the tags to operating system specific UI/functionality while leaving shared content alone. Here's the thing though, I am not a fan of conditional text. I've learned that i need to apply the tags in a very specific sequence and apply it to preceding paragraph marks or otherwise hiding and showing the conditional text introduces funky formatting into my book. I also think it makes managing and tracking content in a document really tricky. So here are my questions: How are you using the condition tags and what problems are you having? The sequence in which you apply condition tags is completely irrelevant. And you don't need to apply the tag to the preceding pgf mark (pilcrow) unless you fail to apply it to the pilcrow at the end of a pgf whose entire content you're conditionalizing. People tend to have problems with conditional text when they try to apply conditions on too granular a level. Your needs are dead-simple: two conditions that never need to overlap. All you have to do is adhere to one simple rule: conditionalize only entire pgfs. Even if only a couple of words have changed, just duplicate the pgf, change those words, and apply the appropriate condition to each pgf in its entirety (including the pilcrow at the end). If you stick to that rule, there should be no funky formatting problems. In each case where there is an OS difference, one of two pgfs is shown. As long as both have the same pgf format, it makes no difference which is shown. Of course, while you're authoring/editing, you'll want to have both conditions shown (with condition indicators turned on). So the doc will be longer and pagination wrong. But so what? You don't worry about those things until it's time to hide one condition or the other and produce your final output. If you have very long pgfs (a bad idea) and/or simply reject the above rule, then at the very least restrict yourself to conditionalizing complete sentences. To succeed at this requires a bit more discipline -- for instance, you need to consistently include the space after the end of the sentence, but not the one before it, so that the remainder of the pgf looks OK when you hide that sentence. Whatever you do, _don't_ conditionalize a word here or there. That's what leads to problems. HTH! Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Joseph: What you are describing is exactly the sort of situation conditional text was designed for. From the sound of things, you're bothered by the basic logic of conditional text. You are not the first writer to experience this, and you will not be the last. Nonetheless, I have a hard time imagining how adding another layer of complexity is going to help you over that hump. My advice, good for what you paid for it, is to put your chin into the breeze and perfect your conditional text technique. With time, you will master it, and it will become less confusing. Concerning the specific issue you address, one way of dealing with the paragraph mark issue is simply to get into the habit of adding a space to the end of every line. Once upon a time, when memory was expensive, and mighty lizards ruled the land, leaving an extra byte of padding at the end of a line was a pretty profligate use of memory. Time to get over this. Adding an extra space character makes not picking up the paragraph tag much easier. As for tracking, you need to force your reviewers into reviewing a Windows draft and a Linux draft. I've managed this with change bars only, and in newer versions of Frame, your tracking only gets better. Good luck, --William Joseph Lorenzini wrote: Hi all, I have recently encountered a documentation issue that I'd like feedback on. I am documenting a software product. There are two versions of the product. One version is for Windows. The other version is for Linux. The windows version came after the Linux version and there are significant UI and functional differences between the two. Originally, I was told that these differences would eventually go away and that the user experience would be identical on both operating systems. This hasn't happened. The differences have grown. This is problematic because a Linux user isn't going to care about windows-only functionality and a windows user isn't going to care about Linux-only functionality. At the same time, there are major similarities between the two versions because they are the same software. It doesn't make sense to create two different documents, which share a large amount of information. This has led me finally to consider conditional text. I'd create two tags: windows and linux. Then, I'll apply the tags to operating system specific UI/functionality while leaving shared content alone. Here's the thing though, I am not a fan of conditional text. I've learned that i need to apply the tags in a very specific sequence and apply it to preceding paragraph marks or otherwise hiding and showing the conditional text introduces funky formatting into my book. I also think it makes managing and tracking content in a document really tricky. So here are my questions: -is there a better mechanism than conditional text that I could use to get the same result? -If conditional text is the best solution, is there a framemaker plugin that makes managing conditional text easier? Note that I am not interested in FrameScript. Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini -- William Abernathy Berkeley, CA http://yourwritereditor.com ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Whatever you do, _don't_ conditionalize a word here or there. That's what leads to problems. Very wise! I've had to clean up many documents that were poorly conditioned to the word level. It can certainly be done well, but it's not for the conditional text novice by any means. Kiddies, don't try this at home. ;) I do think that limiting to the paragraph level is a bit restrictive though. I think that with just a drop of discipline you can get away with going down to the full sentence level, but I wouldn't go more granular than that. You need to set a conditional use guideline and adhere to it. I suggest conditioning at the sentence level from the first character in the sentence straight through to the period or to the space after the period if the sentence has others following it. This way you will never have odd run-in formatting from sentence to sentence. A lot of people over-think their use of conditions. Keep it simple (which your needs are) and stick to rules about applying them -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood Available for contract and full time opportunities. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Joseph Lorenzini wrote: Thank you for your feedback. I'll definitely go with the conditional text then. I like guidelines of only conditionalizing paragraphs is and never have overlapping conditions. As Richard suggested, if I have to I'll just replicate the paragraph. As for the funky formatting I was referring to, the issue is this: sometimes the end paragraph mark may be an indented item, part of a bulleted list, or a section heading. So it isn't always the case that I'll have the same formatting every where in the book. As a result, when I did a hide/show in some cases, the resulting paragraph mark would inherit a number or formatting from a header. As a workaround, I may introduce empty Body paragraph marks to ensure that only body paragraphs are rendered no matter what I show or hide. Sorry, I don't understand. When you hide a condition, there is no resulting paragraph mark -- there is only all the stuff that _doesn't_ have that condition applied. And that stuff doesn't inherit anything from anywhere -- it just remains what it was. Let's say you have a procedure step (numbered list paragraph) that applies only to Linux, so you apply the Linux condition to the entire paragraph. When you hide that condition, that step disappears. Hiding it has exactly zero effect on the preceding and following paragraphs that are still displayed (barring an unfortunate interaction of Keep With/Next settings affecting pagination, or something like that). If you have a Linux Step 3 paragraph and a Windows Step 3 paragraph, and either one or the other is hidden, depending on the output, then nothing on that page will change except which of the two paragraphs is shown and which is hidden. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
snip Sorry, I don't understand. When you hide a condition, there is no resulting paragraph mark -- /snip There is if the hidden condtional text is a text inset. -- B a r u c h B r o d e r s e n T e c h n i t e x t D o c u m e n t a t i o n 8 7 7 7 2 1 6 9 8 8 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
I always make each condition a different color so it's easy to see what text has what condition applied. Thank you, Gillian Flato Technical Writer (Software) nanometrics 1550 Buckeye Dr. Milpitas, CA. 95035 (408.545.6316 7 408.232.5911 * gfl...@nanometrics.com -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Baruch Brodersen Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 11:59 AM To: Combs, Richard Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com; Joseph Lorenzini Subject: Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text snip Sorry, I don't understand. When you hide a condition, there is no resulting paragraph mark -- /snip There is if the hidden condtional text is a text inset. -- B a r u c h B r o d e r s e n T e c h n i t e x t D o c u m e n t a t i o n 8 7 7 7 2 1 6 9 8 8 ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as gfl...@nanometrics.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/gflato%40nanometrics.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Baruch Brodersen wrote: snip Sorry, I don't understand. When you hide a condition, there is no resulting paragraph mark -- /snip There is if the hidden condtional text is a text inset. Only if you fail to apply the condition to the paragraph that contains the text inset. A text inset sits within the paragraph in which the cursor was located when you imported it. Once the text inset is there, it looks like that paragraph follows the text inset (especially if you don't display text symbols and/or don't have the text inset selected). But in fact, it's the _container_ paragraph for the text inset. If you apply the condition to the entire container paragraph, not just to the text inset, and then hide the condition, the entire container paragraph, text inset included, disappears. Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Field, Karen wrote: Question along these lines: I've got docs that I split into different version numbers and company branding. One document spins into 6 different ones when I combine the version numbers with the branding. (For example: v. 2.1 Company A; v. 2.1 Company B) I do apply conditions at the word level; Any ideas on how to get around that? I wouldn't use conditional text for such differences. That's what variables are for. I'd recommend this: 1) Create user variables called, say, Version and Brand. 2) For each of your 6 outputs, create an Output X definitions FM doc that contains the Version and Brand variables defined as they need to appear in that output. 3) Prior to producing a given output, import variables from the corresponding variable definitions doc to all the files in the book. Obviously, you can include other output-specific things in your Output X definitions doc -- additional variables, conditional text settings, even brand-specific page layouts or format definitions -- and import those as well. It all depends on how much customization you need for each output. But for simple redefinitions such as those you cited as examples, stick to variables. Also, because I've been working in these docs for years, I've got tons of condition tags I'd like to delete. When I delete them from one doc (using the FM Help instructions), the changes don't port to other docs when I import formats. Is there a way to get rid of unneeded condition tags from a bunch o' files at once? Importing formats is additive -- FM doesn't remove what's already there (and you wouldn't want it to without giving you some control over whether or not to do that). Electropubs.com has a nifty little plug-in called Clean Import that lets you replace existing formats with the ones you import (all kinds of formats or just the ones you select). So you could delete the unneeded conditions from one file and then Clean Import conditions from it to all the other files, and that would remove all the unneeded ones. HTH! Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-903-6372 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
Ideally I'd suggest try to avoid conditional text. That means planning. Then, if you do need to use it, you've done all you can to avoid it, and it should appear as little as possible. It likely needs as little as possible to make it work as well. It's a great feature, but one that you may be able to reduce your need for. That means think a lot about what you write. With one client we took the approach of a Mac and a PC version of manuals, but we had, say, 10 chapters that had the same info. We avoided product names. We asked the developers to match the product and dialogs. Then we wrote generic. Instead of on the PC, click FOO to open the Windows Explore and on the Mac, click YADDA to open the Finder or whatever, we wrote Open your file browser, and similar things. The assumption was that the user would either know how to do it, look it up in the chapter on Mac Specific Functions and Tips, or ask a person how do I do *this*. At the end we had 9 or 10 shared chapters, and 1 for just a mac, one for just a PC. Conditions almost didn't exist. We also dropped versions and product names. Personally I find it a bit silly. At the end of the project we had a set of core common files, one file for a mac, one for a PC, and two books (mac version and PC version). If I have a book/help file/website and I'm reading about MS Office 2007 for Windows then do I need to see text that says on your Windows 7(r)(tm)(c), using Microsoft Office 2007(r)(tm)(c) you can open a file by selecting the File menu and choosing Open. Nope. If I am reading the manual I already know that I'm using the software. And the version. And the OS. Now I have one sentence. It says Select File Open. That sentence, btw, likely works for Word, Excel, PowerPoint, MS Paint, Photoshop, Acrobat, FrameMaker, WordPerfect, and so much more. Heck, write it cleanly, assume some intelligence and problem solving in the reader, and you can have this: - Open a document Files that are available to you on your local drive, over a network, or through other locations can be opened. There may be slight differences based on the specific software you are using. 1. Select File Open 2. Navigate to the document to open. 3. Select the document 4. Click OK or Open. - That now tells you how to do this regardless of almost all factors. It's not to say that your docs will be this easy, but a big part of conditional use that I have seen with clients in the past 20 years or so has been due to the feature existing and people deciding to use it, rather than planning their docs, and only using features when/where it makes sense to do so. Hope that adds a bit to the discussion. Best of luck, Bernard Bernard Aschwanden Publishing Smarter www.publishingsmarter.com Write Less. Write Better. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
In that case make sure you conditionalize everything from the 1st character to the ending paragraph mark of each conditional paragraph. You should have no issues if you follow that rule. On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Joseph Lorenzini jalo...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you for your feedback. I'll definitely go with the conditional text then. I like guidelines of only conditionalizing paragraphs is and never have overlapping conditions. As Richard suggested, if I have to I'll just replicate the paragraph. As for the funky formatting I was referring to, the issue is this: sometimes the end paragraph mark may be an indented item, part of a bulleted list, or a section heading. So it isn't always the case that I'll have the same formatting every where in the book. As a result, when I did a hide/show in some cases, the resulting paragraph mark would inherit a number or formatting from a header. As a workaround, I may introduce empty Body paragraph marks to ensure that only body paragraphs are rendered no matter what I show or hide. -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood Available for contract and full time opportunities. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
That means think a lot about what you write. With one client we took the approach of a Mac and a PC version of manuals, but we had, say, 10 chapters that had the same info. We avoided product names. We asked the developers to match the product and dialogs. Then we wrote generic. Instead of on the PC, click FOO to open the Windows Explore and on the Mac, click YADDA to open the Finder or whatever, we wrote Open your file browser, and similar things. The assumption was that the user would either know how to do it, look it up in the chapter on Mac Specific Functions and Tips, or ask a person how do I do *this*. Generally I agree, but I think in this specific case the application that Joe is documenting really varies between Linux and Windows. At least, that's what I gathered from: Originally, I was told that these differences would eventually go away and that the user experience would be identical on both operating systems. This hasn't happened. The differences have grown. In this case, I think it's best to *advocate* for the generic approach but until it's achieved on the application side conditions are likely the best solution. As the applications become more similar, the conditioned document can be generalized and conditions removed for those general portions. -- Bill Swallow Twitter: @techcommdood Blog: http://techcommdood.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/techcommdood Available for contract and full time opportunities. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
I have been following this thread with interest. I, personally believe that conditional text would solve your problem, but, I was recently involved in documenting a software application that was targeted for Windows and Unix. The client did not want to use conditional text. So, we were left with creating separate sections for Unix and Windows, only where there were functional differences. This primarily occurred with installation and maintenance, i.e., backup, restore, type procedures. Our solution was to document the platform-specific procedures consistently in the same order. The installation section would document the Unix-specific procedures followed by the Windows procedures. The same was true whenever this situation arose. The headings were, usually, identical except to refer to the platform; Installing on Unix followed by Installing on Windows. I worked out very nice. The big advantage of doing it this way is production of one document instead of two, which made follow-on maintenance was much easier; only one book to muck with. Just a second opinion. David Spreadbury Sr. Technical Writer -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Bill Swallow Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 4:27 PM To: Bernard Aschwanden (Publishing Smarter) Cc: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text That means think a lot about what you write. With one client we took the approach of a Mac and a PC version of manuals, but we had, say, 10 chapters that had the same info. We avoided product names. We asked the developers to match the product and dialogs. Then we wrote generic. Instead of on the PC, click FOO to open the Windows Explore and on the Mac, click YADDA to open the Finder or whatever, we wrote Open your file browser, and similar things. The assumption was that the user would either know how to do it, look it up in the chapter on Mac Specific Functions and Tips, or ask a person how do I do *this*. Generally I agree, but I think in this specific case the application that Joe is documenting really varies between Linux and Windows. At least, that's what I gathered from: Originally, I was told that these differences would eventually go away and that the user experience would be identical on both operating systems. This hasn't happened. The differences have grown. In this case, I think it's best to *advocate* for the generic approach but until it's achieved on the application side conditions are likely the best solution. As the applications become more similar, the conditioned document can be generalized and conditions removed for those general portions. -- Bill Swallow ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Strategy for Handling Conditional Text
BILL: Generally I agree, but I think in this specific case the application that Joe is documenting really varies between Linux and Windows. At least, that's what I gathered from: Originally, I was told that these differences would eventually go away and that the user experience would be identical on both operating systems. This hasn't happened. The differences have grown. B: A great reason to ask for that in writing ;) If they 'tell' you that it will go away and that UX will become the same, then they'll change and not do it. If they put it in writing at least you can go back with that and say look and then smack them. With a large, cold, dead fish. Repeatedly. No jury of MY peers would convict you. ___ You are currently subscribed to framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
