subject:"RE\: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF"

Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Mike Wickham

Okay. I see now that I wasn't even seeing the TOC window at 1920 pixels 
wide because I have IE set to display at 150%. So I didn't know what I 
was missing. When I dropped down to 125% view, it popped in.


Mike Wickham

On 12/15/2014 1:33 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

At around 1280 pixels or wider, there's a TOC nav tree in a left-hand
pane. In the middle of the border between the TOC and the topic pane,
there's a left arrow you can click to minimize the TOC. Minimized,
there's a right arrow to expand it.

At less than 1280, the expanded or minimized TOC disappears, and I see
no way to get it. There is a button in the top left corner you can
click to *replace* the current topic with a hard-to-navigate version
of the TOC with huge amounts of white space.




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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Robert Lauriston

At around 1280 pixels or wider, there's a TOC nav tree in a left-hand
pane. In the middle of the border between the TOC and the topic pane,
there's a left arrow you can click to minimize the TOC. Minimized,
there's a right arrow to expand it.

At less than 1280, the expanded or minimized TOC disappears, and I see
no way to get it. There is a button in the top left corner you can
click to *replace* the current topic with a hard-to-navigate version
of the TOC with huge amounts of white space.

I only looked at it on my phone to see if the design choices that are
awful on the desktop made any more sense.

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Mike Wickham  wrote:
> I'm viewing on a monitor, not a phone. For me, the TOC button moves to the
> bottom of the screen when window size is reduced.
>
> Mike Wickham
>
> On 12/15/2014 12:53 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:
>>
>> That seems like really bad UI to me. Not only does the TOC disappear,
>> there's nothing you can click on to get it.
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Mike Wickham

I'm viewing on a monitor, not a phone. For me, the TOC button moves to 
the bottom of the screen when window size is reduced.


Mike Wickham

On 12/15/2014 12:53 PM, Robert Lauriston wrote:

That seems like really bad UI to me. Not only does the TOC disappear,
there's nothing you can click on to get it.



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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread David Spreadbury

Robert,The previous version is installed with FrameMaker 12 as a chm. It even 
has the Endnotes sections.I have the PDF of the CHM. Can't remember where I 
found it though. If you want a copy I can forward.Dave Spreadbury 

 On Monday, December 15, 2014 12:54 PM, Robert Lauriston 
 wrote:

 That seems like really bad UI to me. Not only does the TOC disappear,
there's nothing you can click on to get it.

Is that the default appearance of FrameMaker's / RoboHelp's Responsive
HTML5 output? To me it looks amateurish and ugly, the kind of bad
design that I was happy to lose when I migrated from RoboHelp to
WebWorks ePublisher Pro. Viewing it on my desktop, type and icons are
too big. On my Android phone, running text is SMALLER than the
default, and adobe.com won't let me view the old version.

Why even use responsive help for FrameMaker? It's not like anyone's
running the application on a smartphone.

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Scott Prentice  wrote:
> Sorry if this is obvious to some .. I'm thinking it's not obvious to all.
>
> This Help system *is* responsive .. it's just that the "response" points
> seem to be at odd sizes (at least to me). If your browser window is around
> 1300px wide, you'll get the "full" set of features. At around 1000px you get
> a reduced set. Then around 700px it bumps down again.
>
> Losing the TOC at 1300px seems a bit extreme. Personally, I'd set that at
> 600-800px. Not everyone works with a browser at full screen, and there's no
> reason that you need so much room for the content pane. Keep the TOC visible
> until the content pane is too small to be useful.
>
> I really like the fact that this is responsive .. the problem is that a
> responsive layout needs to be well designed at all sizes. That does
> complicate things a bit, but it's worth the effort in the long run.
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Robert Lauriston

That seems like really bad UI to me. Not only does the TOC disappear,
there's nothing you can click on to get it.

Is that the default appearance of FrameMaker's / RoboHelp's Responsive
HTML5 output? To me it looks amateurish and ugly, the kind of bad
design that I was happy to lose when I migrated from RoboHelp to
WebWorks ePublisher Pro. Viewing it on my desktop, type and icons are
too big. On my Android phone, running text is SMALLER than the
default, and adobe.com won't let me view the old version.

Why even use responsive help for FrameMaker? It's not like anyone's
running the application on a smartphone.

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Scott Prentice  wrote:
> Sorry if this is obvious to some .. I'm thinking it's not obvious to all.
>
> This Help system *is* responsive .. it's just that the "response" points
> seem to be at odd sizes (at least to me). If your browser window is around
> 1300px wide, you'll get the "full" set of features. At around 1000px you get
> a reduced set. Then around 700px it bumps down again.
>
> Losing the TOC at 1300px seems a bit extreme. Personally, I'd set that at
> 600-800px. Not everyone works with a browser at full screen, and there's no
> reason that you need so much room for the content pane. Keep the TOC visible
> until the content pane is too small to be useful.
>
> I really like the fact that this is responsive .. the problem is that a
> responsive layout needs to be well designed at all sizes. That does
> complicate things a bit, but it's worth the effort in the long run.
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Scott Prentice


Sorry if this is obvious to some .. I'm thinking it's not obvious to all.

This Help system *is* responsive .. it's just that the "response" points 
seem to be at odd sizes (at least to me). If your browser window is 
around 1300px wide, you'll get the "full" set of features. At around 
1000px you get a reduced set. Then around 700px it bumps down again.


Losing the TOC at 1300px seems a bit extreme. Personally, I'd set that 
at 600-800px. Not everyone works with a browser at full screen, and 
there's no reason that you need so much room for the content pane. Keep 
the TOC visible until the content pane is too small to be useful.


I really like the fact that this is responsive .. the problem is that a 
responsive layout needs to be well designed at all sizes. That does 
complicate things a bit, but it's worth the effort in the long run.


Cheers,

...scott


On 12/15/14 5:54 AM, Ed Nodland wrote:
I agree.  I downloaded the PDF instead.  A lot of web content seems to 
be going the way of cell phone/small screen display.  In the USA I see 
more and more sites starting to look like cell phone displays with 
less real information.  It appears that instead of implementing 
responsive HTML, companies are implementing cell phone displays as the 
standard for all devices.  I often think the information is also 
becoming more pedestrian, i.e less technical.


I remember looking up how to install a home furnace.  It said step 
three was the hardest; Step 3: Locating a furnace contractor.


I that light, the only hard part about implementing Framemaker is 
locating a good FM consultant.


Ed


On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Davis, David 
> wrote:


I don't wanna be overly blunt, but the new online help basically
looks terrible
(on my Windows 7 / IE10 default setup).  The fonts are enormous
and you have to click through too many layers of headings to find
anything,
with no ToC or breadcrumb trail.

The plain fact is that the printed manual trumped any of this
new-fangled gubbins.
If Adobe really feel it eats into their profit margin too much to
include it with the software as standard,
could they not consider selling a printed manual separately, as an
additional option?


_

David Davis


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RE: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Keith Soltys

Agreed too. The online help is not great. I am using Frame 10 and am trying to 
make up my mind about putting through a request for 12 or wait until 13, which 
I’m guessing will be out next year. So I want to browse through the docs to get 
an idea of how helpful the new features will be.

The PDF is much easier for this purpose.

OTOH, either still beats the “help” in Word 2010 or 2013 which is completely 
useless. I just use Google when I need to find out something.

Regards
Keith

From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com 
[mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Ed Nodland
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2014 8:54 AM
To: framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

I agree.  I downloaded the PDF instead.  A lot of web content seems to be going 
the way of cell phone/small screen display.  In the USA I see more and more 
sites starting to look like cell phone displays with less real information.  It 
appears that instead of implementing responsive HTML, companies are 
implementing cell phone displays as the standard for all devices.  I often 
think the information is also becoming more pedestrian, i.e less technical.

I remember looking up how to install a home furnace.  It said step three was 
the hardest; Step 3: Locating a furnace contractor.

I that light, the only hard part about implementing Framemaker is locating a 
good FM consultant.

Ed

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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Ed Nodland

I agree.  I downloaded the PDF instead.  A lot of web content seems to be
going the way of cell phone/small screen display.  In the USA I see more
and more sites starting to look like cell phone displays with less real
information.  It appears that instead of implementing responsive HTML,
companies are implementing cell phone displays as the standard for all
devices.  I often think the information is also becoming more pedestrian,
i.e less technical.

I remember looking up how to install a home furnace.  It said step three
was the hardest; Step 3: Locating a furnace contractor.

I that light, the only hard part about implementing Framemaker is locating
a good FM consultant.

Ed


On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:32 AM, Davis, David <
david.da...@non.schneider-electric.com> wrote:
>
> I don't wanna be overly blunt, but the new online help basically looks
> terrible
> (on my Windows 7 / IE10 default setup).  The fonts are enormous and you
> have to click through too many layers of headings to find anything,
> with no ToC or breadcrumb trail.
>
> The plain fact is that the printed manual trumped any of this new-fangled
> gubbins.
> If Adobe really feel it eats into their profit margin too much to include
> it with the software as standard,
> could they not consider selling a printed manual separately, as an
> additional option?
>
>
> _
>
> David Davis
>
>
> *** Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail, including any associated or
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> status. Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then
> delete this message from your system. Please do not copy it or use it for
> any purposes, or disclose its contents to any other person. This email
> comes from a division of the Invensys Group, owned by Invensys Limited,
> which is a company registered in England and Wales with its registered
> office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 7AW (Registered
> number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within the Invensys
> Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. Invensys
> Limited is owned by the Schneider-Electric Group.
>
> You may contact Invensys Limited on +44 (0)20 3155 1200 or e-mail
> recept...@invensys.com. This e-mail and any attachments thereto may be
> subject to the terms of any agreements between Invensys (and/or its
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RE: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF

2014-12-15 Thread Davis, David

I don't wanna be overly blunt, but the new online help basically looks terrible
(on my Windows 7 / IE10 default setup).  The fonts are enormous and you have to 
click through too many layers of headings to find anything,
with no ToC or breadcrumb trail.

The plain fact is that the printed manual trumped any of this new-fangled 
gubbins.
If Adobe really feel it eats into their profit margin too much to include it 
with the software as standard,
could they not consider selling a printed manual separately, as an additional 
option?

_

David Davis


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files, is intended solely for the individual or entity to which it is 
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If you have received it in error, you are on notice of its status. Please 
notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and then delete this message from 
your system. Please do not copy it or use it for any purposes, or disclose its 
contents to any other person. This email comes from a division of the Invensys 
Group, owned by Invensys Limited, which is a company registered in England and 
Wales with its registered office at 3rd Floor, 40 Grosvenor Place, London, SW1X 
7AW (Registered number 166023). For a list of European legal entities within 
the Invensys Group, please select the Legal Entities link at invensys.com. 
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread David Spreadbury

Just compare the TOC of the help file that ships with Frame 12 against the TOC 
of the new guide.The chapter that includes endnotes, in the current version, is 
missing several sections in the new version.A simple search of the new version 
for 'endnotes' will come back with "Not Found".
 

 On Friday, December 12, 2014 6:22 PM, Mike Wickham  
wrote:
   

  Are you sure the items are missing? The blog about the new help files said:
 
 "Content organization: FrameMaker is a powerful product packed with rich 
functionality. However, not all users use all of its functionality all the 
time. While improving the guide, we made a conscious attempt to minimize 
scattering of information and keep content around related features together. 
For example, information about using structured authoring features forms two 
neat chapters in the new user’s guide. This information was spread across 
several chapters in the earlier user’s guide"
 
 Mike Wickham
 
 On 12/12/2014 2:18 PM, David Spreadbury wrote:
  
 From the size of the "New" version, compared to the "Old" version, I would 
expect a lot of good stuff. Old has just shy of 700 pages. New has just shy of 
1000 pages. That's 300 pages of information that wasn't available in the "Old". 
I have to ask, why are there items missing from the "New"? 
  
 
 
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread Robert Lauriston

The word "endnote" does not appear in the new PDF, so that's pretty
definitely gone.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Mike Wickham  wrote:
> Are you sure the items are missing?
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread Mike Wickham


Are you sure the items are missing? The blog about the new help files said:

"*/Content organization:/* FrameMaker is a powerful product packed with 
rich functionality. However, not all users use all of its functionality 
all the time. While improving the guide, we made a conscious attempt to 
minimize scattering of information and keep content around related 
features together. For example, information about using structured 
authoring features forms two neat chapters in the new user's guide. This 
information was spread across several chapters in the earlier user's guide"


Mike Wickham

On 12/12/2014 2:18 PM, David Spreadbury wrote:
From the size of the "New" version, compared to the "Old" version, I 
would expect a lot of good stuff.

Old has just shy of 700 pages. New has just shy of 1000 pages.
That's 300 pages of information that wasn't available in the "Old".
I have to ask, why are there items missing from the "New"?



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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread Robert Lauriston

The new version has larger type, more white space, more headings, and
lower dpi for screen shots, so, for example, the content on page 347
of the new version takes only about 3/4 of page 230 in the old
version.

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 12:18 PM, David Spreadbury  wrote:
> From the size of the "New" version, compared to the "Old" version, I would
> expect a lot of good stuff.
> Old has just shy of 700 pages. New has just shy of 1000 pages.
> That's 300 pages of information that wasn't available in the "Old".
> I have to ask, why are there items missing from the "New"?
>
>
> On Friday, December 12, 2014 2:10 PM, David Spreadbury 
> wrote:
>
>
> Robert,
> Comparing the TOC of the "New" Using Framemaker 12 against the TOC of the
> one you referenced this morning (see below) concerning endnotes, there are
> several sections missing in the "New" version.
> Maybe keeping both links available would be a temporary fix.
> Just like I keep a copy of the Framemaker 5 User Guide because the index in
> the pre-Adobe Framemaker was more robust in what it covered.
>
> This is covered in the FM manual topic "Create and maintain endnotes":
>
> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7f49.html
>
>
>
> On Friday, December 12, 2014 2:03 PM, Robert Lauriston
>  wrote:
>
>
> The search seems to be broken, e.g. the results for "footnote" do not
> include this "Create and edit footnotes" topic:
>
> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WS6C3D24E6-2965-48bb-B6CF-50D1439AEB01.html
>
> Or maybe you just cut some content. Searching for "endnote" finds nothing.
>
> Something's wrong with the word spacing, compare old and new to see what I
> mean:
>
> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7fff.html
>
> http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/12.0/Help/Using/index.html#t=using-framemaker-12%2Ffrm_books_bk%2Ffrm_books_bk-4.htm
>
> I prefer the smaller text in the old CSS.
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RE: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread Maxwell Hoffmann

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your detailed feedback. I will share this and other comments 
early next week with the doc team manager.



Maxwell Hoffmann |  Product  Evangelist  |  Adobe  |  p. 503.336.5952  |  c. 
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-Original Message-
From: robert.lauris...@gmail.com [mailto:robert.lauris...@gmail.com] On Behalf 
Of Robert Lauriston
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2014 12:03 PM
To: Maxwell Hoffmann; framers@lists.frameusers.com
Subject: Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and 
HTML5

The search seems to be broken, e.g. the results for "footnote" do not include 
this "Create and edit footnotes" topic:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WS6C3D24E6-2965-48bb-B6CF-50D1439AEB01.html

Or maybe you just cut some content. Searching for "endnote" finds nothing.

Something's wrong with the word spacing, compare old and new to see what I mean:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7fff.html

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/12.0/Help/Using/index.html#t=using-framemaker-12%2Ffrm_books_bk%2Ffrm_books_bk-4.htm

I prefer the smaller text in the old CSS.
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread David Spreadbury

>From the size of the "New" version, compared to the "Old" version, I would
>expect a lot of good stuff.Old has just shy of 700 pages. New has just shy of
>1000 pages.That's 300 pages of information that wasn't available in the
>"Old".I have to ask, why are there items missing from the "New"?

On Friday, December 12, 2014 2:10 PM, David Spreadbury
wrote:

Robert,Comparing the TOC of the "New" Using Framemaker 12 against the TOC of
the one you referenced this morning (see below) concerning endnotes, there are
several sections missing in the "New" version.Maybe keeping both links
available would be a temporary fix.Just like I keep a copy of the Framemaker 5
User Guide because the index in the pre-Adobe Framemaker was more robust in
what it covered.
This is covered in the FM manual topic "Create and maintain endnotes":

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7f49.html

On Friday, December 12, 2014 2:03 PM, Robert Lauriston
wrote:

The search seems to be broken, e.g. the results for "footnote" do not
include this "Create and edit footnotes" topic:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WS6C3D24E6-2965-48bb-B6CF-50D1439AEB01.html

Or maybe you just cut some content. Searching for "endnote" finds nothing.

Something's wrong with the word spacing, compare old and new to see what I mean:

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/framemaker/using/WSd817046a44e105e21e63e3d11ab7f7561e-7fff.html

http://help.adobe.com/en_US/FrameMaker/12.0/Help/Using/index.html#t=using-framemaker-12%2Ffrm_books_bk%2Ffrm_books_bk-4.htm

I prefer the smaller text in the old CSS.
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Re: online FrameMaker 12 Documentation totally revamped; in PDF and HTML5

2014-12-12 Thread Steve Rickaby

I have not looked at the content yet, but Adobe documentation should be an 
exemplar, and IMHO a four-level TOC is not.
-- 
Steve
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