RE: tables and translation
Dear Verner, I have been working with table-heavy translated FrameMaker files (for clients, I am a translation vendor) for about 15 years now. Tables are always a troublesome area. Besides some of the other excellent suggestions already made, here are some other best practices that can help: == Your Language Service Provider (LSP) should Quote on the initial project to include time to make localized templates. These templates may include slight point size and spread changes to help text fit. == Table styles should be used extensively, and should have smaller left/right cell margins in some target languages than in your source language. == NEVER define paragraph styles that have fixed or modified cell margins on the paragraph level. This makes corrections of tables far more difficult to accomplish. It is especially important to avoid this as a format override in the source language, as it is difficult to locate and correct such instances in translated text. == There is nothing wrong with a moderate amount of format overrides to your table styles (e.g. overrides to cell margins, etc.) or paragraphs (cellbody) in tables. There are simply too many variations possible in tables to allow you to make a unique table style for every instance. == You can also have your LSP translate the text for table header row cells ahead of time, to help determine ideal column widths == Avoid the temptation to squeeze too much data into tables in your source files. I have frequently seen training materials in English which have a one page table that reaches the bottom of the page, with every cell packed with 7 pt condensed text. Obviously, when text expansion occurs, (which can be quite dramatic in Dutch, German, Hungarian or Italian) there is no solution other than to let the table break to a second page. In many such instances, a table header row (which would repeat) was not used. NOTE: full page tables crammed with tiny font sizes are also a challenge for reader retention, in any language. == (This is a common problem in English source files): avoid ALL CAPS text in table header rows. This will nearly always cause grief with text expansion. == Never use vertically rotated text in table header rows for documents that will be translated (unless going into the few languages that cause text shrinkage instead of text expansion.)The text expansion that occurs from translation will dramatically increase the depth of your table header rows. == Common problem in English source file tables: many writers use abbreviations in table cells and just assume that an abbreviation is acceptable in the target language. Not always. It is not uncommon for a 3 letter acronym to expand to 20-30 characters in some target languages. == Finally, when authoring, ask yourself, does this really need to be in a table? Sometimes the answer is now. Often simple steps can be conveyed as effectively in a more flexible list. I hope that this helps. I will soon be posting The 10 most common mistakes that FrameMaker users do which makes source files toxic in a blog or white paper on our web site. Maxwell Hoffmann Director, Document Globalization Practice Globalization Partners International (GPI) Toll Free: 866.272.5874 ∞ Direct: 503.336.5952 (PDX) Mobile: 503.805.3719 ∞ Fax: 202.478.0956 ∞ Skype ID: Maxwell.Hoffmann mhoffm...@globalizationpartners.com www.globalizationpartners.com -Original Message- From: Andersen, Verner Engell VEA [mailto:verner.ander...@radiometer.dk] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:53 AM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: tables and translation Hi When we translated our manual from English to German via the Trados translation workbench it turned out that many of columns in tables were too small. The result was that a letter or two wre placed in line two of the column. I fixed this in the files I received from the translator but would like to fix it in my English source so that I won't have to do this again in the next release. My plan was to open a copy ofthe English files and manually compare all tables with those in the German files. Originally I used tables from the table designer by I fear that many of them habe been manually modified. Do you have any suggestions about how to handle the task? I know that a Framescript can solve the issue, I am in doubt whether it will be too costly compared to the one time manual work. Best regards, Verner Radiometer Medical ApS Akandevej 21 2700 Bronshoj Denmark Phone: +45 38 27 38 27 CVR: 27 50 91 85 www.radiometer.com For the latest trends in acute care testing, go to Radiometer's knowledge site www.acutecaretesting.org ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com
RE: tables and translation
I look forward to that posting, Maxwell. I'd appreciate it if you'd post a link when it happens. Thanks! Lea _ Lea Rush Software and Documentation Specialist Astoria-Pacific International www.astoria-pacific.com ph: 800-536-3111 fax: 503-655-7367 l...@astoria-pacific.com Please consider the environment before printing this email. `·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸ º`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸º NOTICE OF CONFIDENTIALITY This communication is from Astoria-Pacific International and is intended to be confidential and solely for the use of the persons or entities addressed above. If you are not an intended recipient, be aware that the information contained herein may be protected from unauthorized use by privilege or law, and any copying, distribution, disclosure, or other use of this information is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender by return email or telephone (503) 657-3010 immediately, and delete or destroy all copies. Thank you for your cooperation. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers- boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Maxwell Hoffmann Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 2:40 AM To: 'Andersen, Verner Engell VEA'; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: tables and translation Dear Verner, I have been working with table-heavy translated FrameMaker files (for clients, I am a translation vendor) for about 15 years now. Tables are always a troublesome area. Besides some of the other excellent suggestions already made, here are some other best practices that can help: == Your Language Service Provider (LSP) should Quote on the initial project to include time to make localized templates. These templates may include slight point size and spread changes to help text fit. == Table styles should be used extensively, and should have smaller left/right cell margins in some target languages than in your source language. == NEVER define paragraph styles that have fixed or modified cell margins on the paragraph level. This makes corrections of tables far more difficult to accomplish. It is especially important to avoid this as a format override in the source language, as it is difficult to locate and correct such instances in translated text. == There is nothing wrong with a moderate amount of format overrides to your table styles (e.g. overrides to cell margins, etc.) or paragraphs (cellbody) in tables. There are simply too many variations possible in tables to allow you to make a unique table style for every instance. == You can also have your LSP translate the text for table header row cells ahead of time, to help determine ideal column widths == Avoid the temptation to squeeze too much data into tables in your source files. I have frequently seen training materials in English which have a one page table that reaches the bottom of the page, with every cell packed with 7 pt condensed text. Obviously, when text expansion occurs, (which can be quite dramatic in Dutch, German, Hungarian or Italian) there is no solution other than to let the table break to a second page. In many such instances, a table header row (which would repeat) was not used. NOTE: full page tables crammed with tiny font sizes are also a challenge for reader retention, in any language. == (This is a common problem in English source files): avoid ALL CAPS text in table header rows. This will nearly always cause grief with text expansion. == Never use vertically rotated text in table header rows for documents that will be translated (unless going into the few languages that cause text shrinkage instead of text expansion.)The text expansion that occurs from translation will dramatically increase the depth of your table header rows. == Common problem in English source file tables: many writers use abbreviations in table cells and just assume that an abbreviation is acceptable in the target language. Not always. It is not uncommon for a 3 letter acronym to expand to 20-30 characters in some target languages. == Finally, when authoring, ask yourself, does this really need to be in a table? Sometimes the answer is now. Often simple steps can be conveyed as effectively in a more flexible list. I hope that this helps. I will soon be posting The 10 most common mistakes that FrameMaker users do which makes source files toxic in a blog or white paper on our web site. Maxwell Hoffmann Director, Document Globalization Practice Globalization Partners International (GPI) Toll Free: 866.272.5874 ∞ Direct: 503.336.5952 (PDX) Mobile: 503.805.3719 ∞ Fax: 202.478.0956 ∞ Skype ID: Maxwell.Hoffmann mhoffm...@globalizationpartners.com www.globalizationpartners.com -Original Message- From: Andersen, Verner Engell VEA [mailto:verner.ander...@radiometer.dk] Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 6:53 AM To: framers
RE: tables and translation
Hi Verner, Tables are indeed one of the tricky parts in translated FrameMaker files. Some things you can do to avoid laborious manual copy fitting: - adapt your table column widths in the source file to the expected target languages (as you suggested), although it may not always look nice for English. - try to minimize number of columns and avoid long texts in tables (languages like German or Spanish may grow up to 170% of space compared to English, and use long words) - always use table formats and paragraph formats for your tables, this will ease global updates after translation - make sure the translator sets the proper language when converting back to MIF - in your language templates add hyphenation settings to the table paragraph formats, making it possible to break long words (like in German, Dutch etc). This will only work as expected when also the language setting is correct. - instruct translators to take into account the available space . HTH, Vriendelijke groet, Wim Hooghwinkel Adobe Certified Expert (ACE) in FrameMaker International DTP DTP and Documentation Consultancy tel. +31652036811 i...@idtp.eu www.idtp.eu Twitter.com/idtp Twitter.com/nldita * ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: tables and translation
Hi When we translated our manual from English to German via the Trados translation workbench it turned out that many of columns in tables were too small. The result was that a letter or two wre placed in line two of the column. I fixed this in the files I received from the translator but would like to fix it in my English source so that I won't have to do this again in the next release. My plan was to open a copy ofthe English files and manually compare all tables with those in the German files. Originally I used tables from the table designer by I fear that many of them habe been manually modified. Do you have any suggestions about how to handle the task? I know that a Framescript can solve the issue, I am in doubt whether it will be too costly compared to the one time manual work. Best regards, Verner Radiometer Medical ApS Akandevej 21 2700 Bronshoj Denmark Phone: +45 38 27 38 27 CVR: 27 50 91 85 www.radiometer.com For the latest trends in acute care testing, go to Radiometer's knowledge site www.acutecaretesting.org Please be advised that this email may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not read, copy or re-transmit this email. If you have received this email in error, please notify us by email by replying to the sender and by telephone (call us collect at +1 202-828-0850) and delete this message and any attachments. Thank you in advance for your cooperation and assistance. In addition, Danaher and its subsidiaries disclaim that the content of this email constitutes an offer to enter into, or the acceptance of, any contract or agreement or any amendment thereto; provided that the foregoing disclaimer does not invalidate the binding effect of any digital or other electronic reproduction of a manual signature that is included in any attachment to this email. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: tables and translation
Andersen, Verner wrote: When we translated our manual from English to German via the Trados translation workbench it turned out that many of columns in tables were too small. The result was that a letter or two wre placed in line two of the column. I fixed this in the files I received from the translator but would like to fix it in my English source so that I won't have to do this again in the next release. My plan was to open a copy ofthe English files and manually compare all tables with those in the German files. Originally I used tables from the table designer by I fear that many of them habe been manually modified. Do you have any suggestions about how to handle the task? I know that a Framescript can solve the issue, I am in doubt whether it will be too costly compared to the one time manual work. You don't need FrameScript. Get Rick Quatro's TableCleaner plugin: http://frameexpert.com/plugins/tablecleaner/index.htm Its Resize Table Columns command should make quick work of your problem. Check it out here: http://frameexpert.com/plugins/tablecleaner/resizetablecolumns.htm That said, it seems to me that a competent localization vendor would take care of that for you. Ours does. Of course, I'm sure the cost is built into bid. :-) Richard G. Combs Senior Technical Writer Polycom, Inc. richardDOTcombs AT polycomDOTcom 303-223-5111 -- rgcombs AT gmailDOTcom 303-777-0436 -- ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
